The 2023 ICC Men's Cricket World Cup

Addick Addict

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Addick Addict said:

killerandflash said:

So Willey takes 3-45 @ 4.5 an over, and is unbeaten on 16 at the end. And doesn't get a central contract.

The point was made on Sky after the last defeat that Willey is known to be upset about being the only one in the squad without a CC and that has caused a bit of a ripple in the England camp. If we then take into account not just the financial differential of the players, information that does get out at some point, but also the announced number of years each have been given then no longer is Willey the only "unhappy bunny".

For example, Malan has always felt that he deserved a CC during periods when he hasn't been given one. In this WC he has been the best of a bad lot (236 runs, 39.33 average, 105.32 SR) as against, say, his opening partner, Bairstow (164 runs, 23.50 average, 85.97 SR). Malan has a one year CC whereas Bairstow has two years. I get that Bairstow is potentially a red and white ball player but one has to say that there is a reasonable chance that he isn't in either the Test or white ball sides going into that second year. 

That is the folly of CCs. Because now we will be looking to evolve this squad in a meaningful manner but we are somewhat "pot committed" to playing players who might not be the best. Equally, there are no "hand cuffs" on up and coming players who don't currently have a CC but who will now vote with their feet and go and play for an IPL franchise and earn substantially more than just a match fee for England.

The ECB pot can only be so big and I have suggested that we should be making large squad and team payments to those that actually want to play for England. In any event, the CCs do not prevent players like Root from playing in the UAE T20 instead of for England in an ODI series against and he doesn't get some of his CC payment taken for doing that. But his replacement in the ODI team who isn't on a CC gets peanuts by comparison. 

Player power has gone a bit too far. They are having their cake and being able to eat it. Playing for England should be a privilege that is rewarded. Failure at international level and/or not playing for England shouldn't be.

  

How do other countries manage central contracts for their T20, ODI and test sides?

With India it's pretty clear cut. If their players want to play in any foreign T20 competitions they have to retire from international cricket. That could also mean that they don't get picked for an IPL franchise. It's financial suicide especially in a country as big as India with so many players. 

Australia currently have 24 centrally contracted players and whilst they do allow players to play overseas they seem to be a lot stricter especially in terms of recalling centrally contracted players even if they have already given permission e.g. The Hundred. The other aspect, of course, is that the biggest T20 competition in the world, the IPL, does not compete with their domestic season whereas it does with ours. The Aussies also don't have the massive pool of players we do - there are only six State sides as against 18 counties so there is less chance of competition for international places from outside those centrally contracted players. Whereas any number of non centrally contracted players turn out for England. By definition someone like Archer doesn't play a Test match for two years, someone has to replace him and he might well not have a contract. 

To me, it's also one thing to allow a player to play in the IPL and another to allow one to turn out in the UAE T20 rather than play for England in an overseas ODI series in the year of a ODI WC especially when we have so few ODIs in the first place and when that player is the highest paid centrally contracted player, bar the England captains, of all. Rob Key has just said “I don’t want a world where you see your best players going off and playing franchise cricket. I want to see them playing for England.” Well why didn't he tell Joe Root that?  

Finally, there is this aspect. How many times have we heard of one of our centrally contracted players complaining of "cricket fatigue" and requested to miss an England overseas series? If they want to limit their cricket for that reason that's absolutely fine. Just don't use England as the first port of call for doing so.  
 

MarcusH26

billysboots said:

Interesting article about this round of central contracts here. 

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/24/ben-stokes-england-cricket-one-year-central-contract

I wonder if global franchise contracts may be around the corner ? 

I definitely expect it to happen. There's already been rumours about Archer and the MI franchises. Could see someone like Jason Roy being a target for one too. 

Personally I absolutely hate the idea but I expect it to be something that eventually happens.

Addick Addict

MarcusH26 said:

billysboots said:

Interesting article about this round of central contracts here. 

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/24/ben-stokes-england-cricket-one-year-central-contract

I wonder if global franchise contracts may be around the corner ? 

I definitely expect it to happen. There's already been rumours about Archer and the MI franchises. Could see someone like Jason Roy being a target for one too. 

Personally I absolutely hate the idea but I expect it to be something that eventually happens.

The time to worry is, perhaps, not when an injury riddled Archer, who may well not play another Test, chooses to do sign for a worldwide franchise or a Roy who is 33 and his performances in the last two years have been extremely underwhelming decide to go down the route. It's when a 24 year old talent such as Brook does so. The one thing for certain is that he is desperate to play for England. And yet, despite scoring 66 off 67 and more than double any other player that played in the defeat against Afghanistan he is dropped - but a 34 year old who has averaged 19.40 in his last 10 ODIs (all in the last month or so) and who is clearly struggling with his movement, namely Bairstow and another walking wounded batsman, Stokes, 31, who is averaging 16.00 and who did exactly what India wanted him to do yesterday, in giving up his wicket, are preferred. 

Our decision making, both on and off the field, has been somewhat questionable.  

Chizz

billysboots

MarcusH26 said:

billysboots said:

Interesting article about this round of central contracts here. 

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/24/ben-stokes-england-cricket-one-year-central-contract

I wonder if global franchise contracts may be around the corner ? 

I definitely expect it to happen. There's already been rumours about Archer and the MI franchises. Could see someone like Jason Roy being a target for one too. 

Personally I absolutely hate the idea but I expect it to be something that eventually happens.

In the 2023 IPL Ben Stokes earned £1.65 million , Sam Curren £1.85 million and Harry Brook £1.3 million for a couple of months work. If this was to translate into a annual  ( or multi year ) global contract the numbers could be even more eye watering. 

 

Addick Addict

Sri Lanka 240 all out off 49.3

Billy_Mix

With the current fielding restrictions in ODI's knocking the ball around for 4.5 to 5 rpo (as Afghanistan so ably demonstrated today) could only present a problem if the ball is hooping around or ragging square off a dusty Bunsen.  
Neither has even remotely happened in any of England's innings.
Barely a handful of wickets have fallen to properly good deliveries.
A professional batter has to be able to stomach a couple of tight overs, maidens even, without losing his shit and getting out cos he only understands hitting boundaries.
The top 6 or 7 batters have consistently given up their wickets to needless, crap shots and brain in neutral complacency.
The post match bullshit from Buttler, Mott and whichever other sap gets wheeled out for the press is risible and blatantly dishonest.

After a decent bowling and fielding performance yesterday, David Willey cut a furious figure at the wicket when batting.  He flogged a couple of massive 6's with no fanfare or celebration clearly livid that his hard work was wasted by the pricks above him in the batting order.  Salt firmly rubbed into the wound by the arseholes at ECB not granting him a contract.  He's giving it his all while the millionaire wankers around him slack off and embarrass us all.

There's lots wrong with English cricket structure and timetable but none of that had anything to do with the dereliction of duty displayed by the top 6 or 7 batters in almost all the world cup defeats especially against demonstrably weaker opposition.  Not even professional pride was sufficient motivation in a very winnable game against the eventual champions India.  Shameful.

Addick Addict

Afghanistan reach their target off 45.2 overs for the loss of just 3 wickets. That is their third win of the tournament. Jonathan Trott, as coach, appears to be doing a pretty good job. He probably them to keep the score ticking along without taking undue risks. Now if only we had done that yesterday. 

Addick Addict

Billy_Mix said:

With the current fielding restrictions in ODI's knocking the ball around for 4.5 to 5 rpo could only present a problem if the ball is hooping around or ragging square off a dusty Bunsen.  
Neither has even remotely happened in any of England's innings.
Barely a handful of wickets have fallen to properly good deliveries.
A professional batter has to be able to stomach a couple of tight overs, maidens even, without losing his shit and getting out cos he only understands hitting boundaries.
The top 6 or 7 batters have consistently given up their wickets to needless, crap shots and brain in neutral complacency.
The post match bullshit from Buttler, Mott and whichever other sap gets wheeled out for the press is risible and blatantly dishonest.

After a decent bowling and fielding performance yesterday, David Willey cut a furious figure at the wicket when batting.  He flogged a couple of massive 6's with no fanfare or celebration clearly livid that his hard work was wasted by the pricks above him in the batting order.  Salt firmly rubbed into the wound by the arseholes at ECB not granting him a contract.  He's giving it his all while the millionaire wankers around him slack off and embarrass us all.

There's lots wrong with English cricket structure and timetable but none of that had anything to do with the dereliction of duty displayed by the top 6 or 7 batters in almost all the world cup defeats especially against demonstrably weaker opposition.  Not even professional pride was sufficient motivation in a very winnable game against the eventual champions India.  Shameful.

I'm not going to argue too much with any of that bar the assumption that India are certainties to win. They might well do but, if we accept, that they only have seven batsmen and including Jadeja and one of the worst tails in the tournament, who is to say that it is impossible for them to be in the same position against the likes of Australia, NZ or SA as they found themselves in yesterday? And if they are, what price that those sides can chase down 220?

Billy_Mix

Addick Addict said:

Billy_Mix said:

With the current fielding restrictions in ODI's knocking the ball around for 4.5 to 5 rpo could only present a problem if the ball is hooping around or ragging square off a dusty Bunsen.  
Neither has even remotely happened in any of England's innings.
Barely a handful of wickets have fallen to properly good deliveries.
A professional batter has to be able to stomach a couple of tight overs, maidens even, without losing his shit and getting out cos he only understands hitting boundaries.
The top 6 or 7 batters have consistently given up their wickets to needless, crap shots and brain in neutral complacency.
The post match bullshit from Buttler, Mott and whichever other sap gets wheeled out for the press is risible and blatantly dishonest.

After a decent bowling and fielding performance yesterday, David Willey cut a furious figure at the wicket when batting.  He flogged a couple of massive 6's with no fanfare or celebration clearly livid that his hard work was wasted by the pricks above him in the batting order.  Salt firmly rubbed into the wound by the arseholes at ECB not granting him a contract.  He's giving it his all while the millionaire wankers around him slack off and embarrass us all.

There's lots wrong with English cricket structure and timetable but none of that had anything to do with the dereliction of duty displayed by the top 6 or 7 batters in almost all the world cup defeats especially against demonstrably weaker opposition.  Not even professional pride was sufficient motivation in a very winnable game against the eventual champions India.  Shameful.

I'm not going to argue too much with any of that bar the assumption that India are certainties to win. They might well do but, if we accept, that they only have seven batsmen and including Jadeja and one of the worst tails in the tournament, who is to say that it is impossible for them to be in the same position against the likes of Australia, NZ or SA as they found themselves in yesterday? And if they are, what price that those sides can chase down 220?

You think there's any chance that the wicket in the final won't suit India best of all?

Swindon_Addick

Since England's focus is now firmly on qualification for the Champions Trophy, it may be worth noting that India's win over England secured qualification for both them and South Africa. Australia and NZ are almost there and it would take a ridiculous combination of results for either to miss out. There are 3 other slots, plus Pakistan as hosts. Two wins might be enough with a lot of luck (or 2 will be OK for anyone, if both England and Bangladesh lose all 3 of their remaining games). For England, two wins from the remaining three are probably needed, but a big win against Netherlands might be enough if other results fall right.

Addick Addict

Billy_Mix said:

Addick Addict said:

Billy_Mix said:

With the current fielding restrictions in ODI's knocking the ball around for 4.5 to 5 rpo could only present a problem if the ball is hooping around or ragging square off a dusty Bunsen.  
Neither has even remotely happened in any of England's innings.
Barely a handful of wickets have fallen to properly good deliveries.
A professional batter has to be able to stomach a couple of tight overs, maidens even, without losing his shit and getting out cos he only understands hitting boundaries.
The top 6 or 7 batters have consistently given up their wickets to needless, crap shots and brain in neutral complacency.
The post match bullshit from Buttler, Mott and whichever other sap gets wheeled out for the press is risible and blatantly dishonest.

After a decent bowling and fielding performance yesterday, David Willey cut a furious figure at the wicket when batting.  He flogged a couple of massive 6's with no fanfare or celebration clearly livid that his hard work was wasted by the pricks above him in the batting order.  Salt firmly rubbed into the wound by the arseholes at ECB not granting him a contract.  He's giving it his all while the millionaire wankers around him slack off and embarrass us all.

There's lots wrong with English cricket structure and timetable but none of that had anything to do with the dereliction of duty displayed by the top 6 or 7 batters in almost all the world cup defeats especially against demonstrably weaker opposition.  Not even professional pride was sufficient motivation in a very winnable game against the eventual champions India.  Shameful.

I'm not going to argue too much with any of that bar the assumption that India are certainties to win. They might well do but, if we accept, that they only have seven batsmen and including Jadeja and one of the worst tails in the tournament, who is to say that it is impossible for them to be in the same position against the likes of Australia, NZ or SA as they found themselves in yesterday? And if they are, what price that those sides can chase down 220?

You think there's any chance that the wicket in the final won't suit India best of all?

I think that yesterday's wicket very much suited India but they still should have lost but we shall see. I certainly wouldn't be backing them to win it at 2.25 to win it though, even with home advantage, especially as they have been knocked out in the last two semis scoring 233 and 221 respectively.  

Addick Addict

Swindon_Addick said:

Since England's focus is now firmly on qualification for the Champions Trophy, it may be worth noting that India's win over England secured qualification for both them and South Africa. Australia and NZ are almost there and it would take a ridiculous combination of results for either to miss out. There are 3 other slots, plus Pakistan as hosts. Two wins might be enough with a lot of luck (or 2 will be OK for anyone, if both England and Bangladesh lose all 3 of their remaining games). For England, two wins from the remaining three are probably needed, but a big win against Netherlands might be enough if other results fall right.

It shows how far we've fallen that we aren't talking about whether we are going to win the WC but whether we can qualify or not for the Champions Trophy. 

golfaddick

Are we out yet  ?

Addick Addict

golfaddick said:

Are we out yet  ?

Yes even if not mathematically. We would need to win all three of our games and either Australia or NZ would have to lose all three of theirs. And even then we might not finish above them on NRR. We are available at 1,000 on Betfair to win the WC and as you can't get a bigger price than that on the Exchange that rather says it all. 

Swindon_Addick

golfaddick said:

Are we out yet  ?

I think we're technically still in, but we'd need to win all 3 remaining games and for one of Aus or NZ to lose all 3 and Afghanistan to win no more than one. Either the Aussies would need to lose to Bangladesh or the Kiwis to Sri Lanka, and if Afghanistan beat the Aussies then we'd need them to lose to the Dutch. Oh, and England would need to beat India and the Aussies along with the Dutch as the 3 remaining games. the odds aren't good.

If I'm right, we actually stay in the competition mathematically until Friday - if NZ beat SA, the Afghans beating the Dutch on Friday would finish us off. If not then, it will come soon after.

golfaddick

Swindon_Addick said:

golfaddick said:

Are we out yet  ?

I think we're technically still in, but we'd need to win all 3 remaining games and for one of Aus or NZ to lose all 3 and Afghanistan to win no more than one. Either the Aussies would need to lose to Bangladesh or the Kiwis to Sri Lanka, and if Afghanistan beat the Aussies then we'd need them to lose to the Dutch. Oh, and England would need to beat India and the Aussies along with the Dutch as the 3 remaining games. the odds aren't good.

If I'm right, we actually stay in the competition mathematically until Friday - if NZ beat SA, the Afghans beating the Dutch on Friday would finish us off. If not then, it will come soon after.

The "soon after" being the next day when we play the Aussies.

It would be so England-like to be knocked out before we play them & then beat them in a meaningless match (for us). 

Addick Addict

Bangladesh 204 all out off 45.1 overs against Pakistan

Addick Addict

Pakistan win by 7 wickets with 17.3 overs to spare

killerandflash

Did the crowd taunt the Bangladesh players with

"Are you England in disguise"?

Addick Addict

Since the last WC we've now player 45 ODIs. We've won 24 and lost 21. That, in itself, is a poor record given we are the current WC holders but, if were to just take our away results, we've won 9 and lost 14. Take that further and ignore that farce of a three match series away to the Netherlands when the Dutch weren't even allowed to play their five or six county contracted players, then it looks even worse:

Bangladesh W  3-1
S A              L  2-4
Australia     L  0-3
India           L  1-3
Afghaistan  L  0-1
NZ              L  0-1
SL               L  0-1

Won 6 & lost 14 

billysboots

Willey to retire from International cricket after the World Cup. 

Looks like a two fingers up at Key. 

Chizz

billysboots said:

Willey to retire from International cricket after the World Cup. 

Looks like a two fingers up at Key. 

Or perhaps they'd had a conversation before the World Cup and it was left to the player to choose when to make the announcement? 

Addick Addict

Willey has been really hard done by and probably more so than any other player in the last decade. Willey now has to make the most of what he has available to him in the relatively short time left in his career by playing as many franchises as possible - he's not going to sit around again waiting for a possible call up to a B series in the Netherlands while the likes of Archer (the man who replaced him in the 2019 WC) collects his hundreds of thousands from his Central Contract isn't going to do that. 

billysboots

Chizz said:

billysboots said:

Willey to retire from International cricket after the World Cup. 

Looks like a two fingers up at Key. 

Or perhaps they'd had a conversation before the World Cup and it was left to the player to choose when to make the announcement? 

Then you announce it before the central contracts are announced  , or well after the tournament - so it doesn’t look like it’s a two finger salute ? 

Addick Addict

Maxwell is to miss the England game due to concussion - sustained as a result of falling off the back of a golf cart!!!

Addick Addict

SA 94-1 off 20 against NZ

killerandflash

Addick Addict said:

Maxwell is to miss the England game due to concussion - sustained as a result of falling off the back of a golf cart!!!

The curse of Golf strikes again. 

Addick Addict

Addick Addict

NZ are struggling to have 11 fit players on the pitch. Williamson, Ferguson and Chapman were ruled out before the game. Henry has left the pitch with a hamstring strain and is highly unlikely to return. Sodhi is the last available member of the pitch and he is on as sub. And now Neesham has been hit on the hand stopping a potential return catch from VDD.