Hartley didn't even bowl THAT well, the pitch was doing everything and Leach's injury meant it was all for him. Pope's innings was outrageous
"Hartley didn't even bowl THAT well"
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Lucky 7 wickets
He didn't! Lots of loose stuff and not much building of pressure, but just enough good balls. On a ragging 4th-day deck and with the main spinner injured, he had to be the guy, and he was, just about
It is unlikely that Leach will make the next Test is due to start on Friday. So, will we play the extra seamer or throw in another rookie spinner?
I don't think we need 4 spinners, so would bring in an extra seamer. Especially for the first innings.
I wonder if India will slightly rethink having such spin dominated pitches, especially if Jadeja is injured
I think Bashir for Leach and a quick for Ahmed. Hartley has shown he can bat 8
I could see that but I'm not sure Wood will play either though they do have that break after this next Test. He was wicketless and his pace was down too so could see Anderson plus one of the other seamers coming in as well as Bashir.
Hartley could probably play Test cricket for another Ten years and not get better figures than he did today. With Leach being injured and Hartley not looking that impressive in the 1st innings I could only see an Indian victory. What a fantastic Test to watch.
Recorded it and it's just finished. That's nicely completed my treble, Charlton to draw & WI & England to win.
But seriously, I was almost certain India would win so well done England on a magnificent come back. Especially Pope and Hartley (Stokes' run out was superb as well).
It is unlikely that Leach will make the next Test is due to start on Friday. So, will we play the extra seamer or throw in another rookie spinner?
I don't think we need 4 spinners, so would bring in an extra seamer. Especially for the first innings.
I wonder if India will slightly rethink having such spin dominated pitches, especially if Jadeja is injured
Killer, India have won 15 series in a row at home since 2013 so I don't think they will prepare wickets any different.
In a 5 test series it's always hard to bet against India at home but a massive psychological boost for "Trusting the process and not getting too emotional with the result, win, lose or draw".
At the end of play on the first day it was already looking just like most of us predicted…..myself included. I wonder what price England were to win at that point? I am delighted to have been proved wrong. Well done England…….not forgetting The Barmy Army.👏👏👏
Miracles do happen , was in and out with kids football near the end , listened on the radio, looked at bbc website for score updates on and off I saw India 55 behind with 3 wickets left and I was fuming , I knew they’d win and we’d fuck it up ….. ha ha beautiful with the Windies win the icing on top
Foakes keeping in the 2nd innings (in particular) was world class. We cannot go into a test on the sub continent without him.
Last time we played in India we won the first test thanks to a Joe Root masterclass and then they doctored the pitches for the rest of the series and spun us out the series. But this pitch was already doctored, what do they do now? Doctor the ball? 🤣
"Pitch already set up to negate pace bowlers and to heavily favour spin from the off and degrading further quickly, as you'd expect from a home side.' Dear me.
Since Stokes became captain,they appear to believe that whatever the situation,they can rescue the game,and so it has been proved on numerous occasions .Yesterday was a classic ,I got up around 6 and watched till the end,very worried until the 8th wicket went down.
From what I have read there is a fear from some senior Indian former players that if they make the pitch for the 2nd Test as much a turner (or even worse) then it might favour the Indians even less than us.
If we were to take Root as a marker, someone who prior to this match had just 60 Test wickets to his name in 135 matches @ 44.31 and ER of 3.25, in taking 5 wickets @ 20.20 with an ER of 2.50, it is fair to say that you didn't have to be the English equivalent of Ashwin or Jadeja to be successful. You just had to put the ball consistently in the right areas and wait for the batsman to make a mistake. How many times did players, for example, got in and gave it up - some 20 in the match reached 20 but failed to get to 50. Another four players reached 70 but failed to get to a ton. The game lasted for four full days when some of us thought that it would be over well inside three so it simply wasn't unplayable.
So why was Pope so successful where others weren't? It was his ability to pick the right ball to play the right shot to and to take the game to India by playing unconventional ones with the confidence that they were the equivalent of a forward defensive. Any modern coach will never lambast a player for getting out to a reverse sweep providing two elements are fulfilled - that you can play it successfully and that you tried to do so to the right ball i.e. it was the execution that failed or the ball did something totally unexpected. It is very difficult to set a field to someone who can sweep, reverse sweep, paddle and ramp successfully because in order to stop that from being profitable you have to move players from more orthodox positions which then opens up areas that will allow straight bat shots to be hit for singles, twos or even a boundaries. Pope did not hit a single maximum in the game and yet his strike rate was over 70 and thankfully he realised from his first innings that he didn't need to be so frenetic from the off in order to achieve that. But then he hadn't picked up a bat in anger in more than six months so who could blame him for that initial misplaced desire to impress.
India, on the other hand, have only two batsmen who play the sweep well, one is Sharma and the other is Rahul. The likes of, specifically, Gill and Iyer don't and their confidence isn't great either - not a 50 between them in their last combined 14 innings. They struggle to negate the spin by playing the sweep so end up either "enjoying" a slow death or by doing something rash.
So maybe, just maybe, India are now stuck between a "rock and a hard place" as to what sort of wicket they prepare. With Jadeja and Rahul now out, perhaps they will, actually, be happy to prepare a "no result" pitch and takes things from the third Test when those two might be fit and they know that their messiah will be back. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.
Bearing in mind what I've said about the pitch, two things
impressed me about Hartley - one how he managed to rescue things after
such a nervous and wayward start but also how Stokes persisted with him in a
way that Cook didn't with Kerrigan. That is the difference between Cook/Root
and Stokes. If we think you're good enough to be picked then we will bowl you as if you were good enough to be picked.
One word of
warning though. Hartley isn't the finished article - he has 49 FC wickets as
opposed to the 434 that Leach has to his name. He clearly has the ability but the only way that he will become a Test bowler as good as Leach and hopefully even better is by bowling a lot of overs, season in season out, which is when he will
learn to control the game when conditions aren't in his favour. Last season he
bowled 287 overs but took just 19 wickets at 44.84 apiece and was the 72nd
highest wicket taker. The vast majority of those above him in the list were, of course, seamers. For all the reasons I've suggested so many times already.
Rehan is an even more obvious victim of a lack of overs.
He made his Test debut 13 months ago in Karachi against Pakistan and returned a
superb 37-3-137-7 again in conditions that were spin friendly. He's
had to wait 'til now for his second Test match and his figures were 30-4-138-2.
This was a track, as I've said above, where even a part timer like Root was able to threaten by bowling in the right areas and yet Rehan didn't consistently do so even though he is an attacking spinner - in fact, one of his two
wickets was the aforementioned Iyer managing to slog sweep one of his balls to the only man on the
legside boundary. During the whole of last season's CC Rehan bowled just 160
overs and picked up a derisory 8 wickets at 66.12 apiece.
If we really want these two great prospects (because they are still that) and the likes of Rehan's brother, Farhan and Taz Ali from the U19s to develop then they have to be given a proper
chance to develop away from the pressure of Test cricket. But how many games will they get in the CC and how many overs will they bowl even if selected? One only has to laugh at the attempt of the former CEO to allow our players to take part in the Sheffield Shield to recognise that they know we have an issue in that respect.
Lancashire have signed Nathan Lyon for next season in all formats, which will hardly help Hartley's chance of game time, though will give him someone to learn of.
Weird that Lancashire, in the damp northwest, has produced so many spinners for England recently.
Comments
England winning in India and WI doing the same in Australia.
A shot in the arm for test cricket as a whole.
I wonder if India will slightly rethink having such spin dominated pitches, especially if Jadeja is injured
I could see that but I'm not sure Wood will play either though they do have that break after this next Test. He was wicketless and his pace was down too so could see Anderson plus one of the other seamers coming in as well as Bashir.
With Leach being injured and Hartley not looking that impressive in the 1st innings I could only see an Indian victory.
What a fantastic Test to watch.
That's nicely completed my treble, Charlton to draw & WI & England to win.
But seriously, I was almost certain India would win so well done England on a magnificent come back.
Especially Pope and Hartley (Stokes' run out was superb as well).
Killer, India have won 15 series in a row at home since 2013 so I don't think they will prepare wickets any different.
In a 5 test series it's always hard to bet against India at home but a massive psychological boost for "Trusting the process and not getting too emotional with the result, win, lose or draw".
Winning is more fun 👏
I am delighted to have been proved wrong.
Well done England…….not forgetting The Barmy Army.👏👏👏
2 of the most unexpected away wins in test cricket both happening on the same day.
England believe they can win from any position, and they’re backing it up…
ha ha beautiful with the Windies win the icing on top
Excellent contribution from Foakes (batting and keeping) and brilliant management of Hartley by the skipper.
What a match
Foakes keeping in the 2nd innings (in particular) was world class. We cannot go into a test on the sub continent without him.
Last time we played in India we won the first test thanks to a Joe Root masterclass and then they doctored the pitches for the rest of the series and spun us out the series. But this pitch was already doctored, what do they do now? Doctor the ball? 🤣
Absolute arsehole fans.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/jadeja-and-rahul-ruled-out-of-second-test-against-england-1418871
If we were to take Root as a marker, someone who prior to this match had just 60 Test wickets to his name in 135 matches @ 44.31 and ER of 3.25, in taking 5 wickets @ 20.20 with an ER of 2.50, it is fair to say that you didn't have to be the English equivalent of Ashwin or Jadeja to be successful. You just had to put the ball consistently in the right areas and wait for the batsman to make a mistake. How many times did players, for example, got in and gave it up - some 20 in the match reached 20 but failed to get to 50. Another four players reached 70 but failed to get to a ton. The game lasted for four full days when some of us thought that it would be over well inside three so it simply wasn't unplayable.
So why was Pope so successful where others weren't? It was his ability to pick the right ball to play the right shot to and to take the game to India by playing unconventional ones with the confidence that they were the equivalent of a forward defensive. Any modern coach will never lambast a player for getting out to a reverse sweep providing two elements are fulfilled - that you can play it successfully and that you tried to do so to the right ball i.e. it was the execution that failed or the ball did something totally unexpected. It is very difficult to set a field to someone who can sweep, reverse sweep, paddle and ramp successfully because in order to stop that from being profitable you have to move players from more orthodox positions which then opens up areas that will allow straight bat shots to be hit for singles, twos or even a boundaries. Pope did not hit a single maximum in the game and yet his strike rate was over 70 and thankfully he realised from his first innings that he didn't need to be so frenetic from the off in order to achieve that. But then he hadn't picked up a bat in anger in more than six months so who could blame him for that initial misplaced desire to impress.
India, on the other hand, have only two batsmen who play the sweep well, one is Sharma and the other is Rahul. The likes of, specifically, Gill and Iyer don't and their confidence isn't great either - not a 50 between them in their last combined 14 innings. They struggle to negate the spin by playing the sweep so end up either "enjoying" a slow death or by doing something rash.
So maybe, just maybe, India are now stuck between a "rock and a hard place" as to what sort of wicket they prepare. With Jadeja and Rahul now out, perhaps they will, actually, be happy to prepare a "no result" pitch and takes things from the third Test when those two might be fit and they know that their messiah will be back. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.
Bearing in mind what I've said about the pitch, two things impressed me about Hartley - one how he managed to rescue things after such a nervous and wayward start but also how Stokes persisted with him in a way that Cook didn't with Kerrigan. That is the difference between Cook/Root and Stokes. If we think you're good enough to be picked then we will bowl you as if you were good enough to be picked.
One word of warning though. Hartley isn't the finished article - he has 49 FC wickets as opposed to the 434 that Leach has to his name. He clearly has the ability but the only way that he will become a Test bowler as good as Leach and hopefully even better is by bowling a lot of overs, season in season out, which is when he will learn to control the game when conditions aren't in his favour. Last season he bowled 287 overs but took just 19 wickets at 44.84 apiece and was the 72nd highest wicket taker. The vast majority of those above him in the list were, of course, seamers. For all the reasons I've suggested so many times already.
Rehan is an even more obvious victim of a lack of overs. He made his Test debut 13 months ago in Karachi against Pakistan and returned a superb 37-3-137-7 again in conditions that were spin friendly. He's had to wait 'til now for his second Test match and his figures were 30-4-138-2. This was a track, as I've said above, where even a part timer like Root was able to threaten by bowling in the right areas and yet Rehan didn't consistently do so even though he is an attacking spinner - in fact, one of his two wickets was the aforementioned Iyer managing to slog sweep one of his balls to the only man on the legside boundary. During the whole of last season's CC Rehan bowled just 160 overs and picked up a derisory 8 wickets at 66.12 apiece.
If we really want these two great prospects (because they are still that) and the likes of Rehan's brother, Farhan and Taz Ali from the U19s to develop then they have to be given a proper chance to develop away from the pressure of Test cricket. But how many games will they get in the CC and how many overs will they bowl even if selected? One only has to laugh at the attempt of the former CEO to allow our players to take part in the Sheffield Shield to recognise that they know we have an issue in that respect.
Weird that Lancashire, in the damp northwest, has produced so many spinners for England recently.