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Post Office Horizon scandal

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  • I still get over the fact that there were almost 1000 prosecutions for theft, fraud & mis-accounting and the PO just seemed to think that this was normal. Did they really think hundreds upon hundreds of sub-postmasters were corrupt ? Just staggers the mind that there were no decent people in the investigation/ legal depts who didnt stand up and say "there must be something wrong"......and whistleblow. 

    Judging by the suppression we've learned about so far, I'd bet there were but we'll probably never know.
  • this affair is gonna roll on and on for months, possibly even years .. another barristers bonanza .. surely the priority is to get compensation to those unjustly criminalised and/or out of pocket .. I suspect there are so many vested interests now involved, that this will still take ages longer than it should ..
    what should happen is for the C P S to drag a few post office and fujitsu high ups at the peak of the situation into court and let's see what transpires .. stop all this pussy footing and fannying about 
  • edited January 26

    .
  • this affair is gonna roll on and on for months, possibly even years .. another barristers bonanza .. surely the priority is to get compensation to those unjustly criminalised and/or out of pocket .. I suspect there are so many vested interests now involved, that this will still take ages longer than it should ..
    what should happen is for the C P S to drag a few post office and fujitsu high ups at the peak of the situation into court and let's see what transpires .. stop all this pussy footing and fannying about 
    I doubt that any charges will be brought until the inquiry is finished. Nothing less than a prison sentence will do for quite a few of those involved in this scandal.
  • this affair is gonna roll on and on for months, possibly even years .. another barristers bonanza .. surely the priority is to get compensation to those unjustly criminalised and/or out of pocket .. I suspect there are so many vested interests now involved, that this will still take ages longer than it should ..
    what should happen is for the C P S to drag a few post office and fujitsu high ups at the peak of the situation into court and let's see what transpires .. stop all this pussy footing and fannying about 
    I doubt that any charges will be brought until the inquiry is finished. Nothing less than a prison sentence will do for quite a few of those involved in this scandal.
    Pretty sure the head of the met said exactly this. 

    He also said there is a big difference between incompetence and PROVING knowledgeable cover ups etc to pervert the course of justice. 

    I'd start with that bully chap from a few weeks back, I am sure that there are a good few people who would meet the criminal threshold in my opinion. Not sure it will be any of the "top" people, but sole people 100% would have known. 
  • Huskaris said:
    this affair is gonna roll on and on for months, possibly even years .. another barristers bonanza .. surely the priority is to get compensation to those unjustly criminalised and/or out of pocket .. I suspect there are so many vested interests now involved, that this will still take ages longer than it should ..
    what should happen is for the C P S to drag a few post office and fujitsu high ups at the peak of the situation into court and let's see what transpires .. stop all this pussy footing and fannying about 
    I doubt that any charges will be brought until the inquiry is finished. Nothing less than a prison sentence will do for quite a few of those involved in this scandal.
    Pretty sure the head of the met said exactly this. 

    He also said there is a big difference between incompetence and PROVING knowledgeable cover ups etc to pervert the course of justice. 

    I'd start with that bully chap from a few weeks back, I am sure that there are a good few people who would meet the criminal threshold in my opinion. Not sure it will be any of the "top" people, but sole people 100% would have known. 
    Enough evidence so far that those at the very top knew what was going on and participated in the cover up. I'd be very surprised if Paula Vennells escapes prosecution.
  • Huskaris said:
    this affair is gonna roll on and on for months, possibly even years .. another barristers bonanza .. surely the priority is to get compensation to those unjustly criminalised and/or out of pocket .. I suspect there are so many vested interests now involved, that this will still take ages longer than it should ..
    what should happen is for the C P S to drag a few post office and fujitsu high ups at the peak of the situation into court and let's see what transpires .. stop all this pussy footing and fannying about 
    I doubt that any charges will be brought until the inquiry is finished. Nothing less than a prison sentence will do for quite a few of those involved in this scandal.
    Pretty sure the head of the met said exactly this. 

    He also said there is a big difference between incompetence and PROVING knowledgeable cover ups etc to pervert the course of justice. 

    I'd start with that bully chap from a few weeks back, I am sure that there are a good few people who would meet the criminal threshold in my opinion. Not sure it will be any of the "top" people, but sole people 100% would have known. 
    Enough evidence so far that those at the very top knew what was going on and participated in the cover up. I'd be very surprised if Paula Vennells escapes prosecution.
    good post, however I'll be surprised if Vennells is prosecuted, I suspect she knows far too much political and financial dirt that was swept under many carpets and that the 'powers that be' want the dirt kept right where it is .. not to say I wouldn't like to see her experience what her bully boys antics brought to many sub postmasters, including sending an innocent pregnant woman to prison as well as several other men and women
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  • Dreadful story and one that no amount of money can compensate for the hurt caused.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68106040

    Gillian Keegan’s husband and ex Fujitsu CEO finally does the right thing and resigns from his Cabinet Office ‘placement’.
  • @Billy_Mix good post above, and especially thanks for identifying Michael Rudkin as the guy depicted in the dramatisation. If I recall, wasn’t he also the leader of an association of postmasters? He was susbsequently shown at various meetings organised by Alan Bates as someone virtually crushed by the oppressive system. You’d find a lot of people like that today who have spoken out as he did, but mainly in Russia. 

    I don’t think enough has been made of his case. Unlike a lot of the other victims he was already very savvy with the system - it was his role to be so, and he was portrayed as visiting Fujitsu expecting to be able return with reassuring news for the people he represented. He rumbled that they had anonymous access, they realised that he’d rumbled it, and days later he’s a victim. That is downright sinister.

    People may say, “don’t forget this was a dramatisation” to which I say, a real person is portrayed and I believe there is no dispute (now, because initially they erased visitor records) that he made  that visit, saw what he saw, and days later got turned over. And ITV have lawyers, and for something like this they will have been on full throttle going over every line of the script. I hope the inquiry is equally diligent going over his case and identifying everyone involved in his case.
    I think he was mentioned regarding his trip to Fujitsu in a Panarama.
  • What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

  • What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
  • What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    Surely they are networked and not local standalone?
  • What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
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  • What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
    And the fact that anyone else could have any remote access was consistently denied.
  • Off_it said:
    What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
    And the fact that anyone else could have any remote access was consistently denied.
    Agreed. But surely any system ultimately has this capability/vulnerability is my point?

    Admin can always go behind the scenes. 

    My point was the denial isn’t (to me) credible  in high level terms. 

    But perhaps the denial was based on very careful use of language / description of scenarios when / where access is audited / intended  etc. 

    That doesn’t justify it to be clear. 
  • edited January 28
    Throughout drawn out legal action in the Bates v Post Office trial, Post Office lawyers, presumably with full knowledge of those running the Post Office at senior management and Board level, made many attempts to delay and halt the proceedings, running up huge legal bills. They used some of the top barristers in the country and seem to have unlimited funds to fight the action.

    In December2019 the Post Office and Subpostmasters agreed a £57.75m settlement, most of which went to lawyers and funders of the case.

    As the Government is the owner of the Post Office, somebody within Government must have sanctioned the releasing of so much money to fund delaying tactics of the lawyers and if they didn't, then serious questions must be asked why the Government didn't put a stop to it, when it knew full well about the unreliability of the Horizon system. By this time both the Post Office and the Government were fully aware that there were serious questions about so many convictions.

    Sacking the Post Office Chairman who had been in post just over a year, would seem to be closing the stable door after the horse has bolted and comes from a Government that is desperate to be seen to do something, when it should have acted very much earlier.


    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366567032/Urgent-question-asks-which-ministers-knew-of-Post-Offices-shocking-plan-to-remove-judge

  • Off_it said:
    What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
    And the fact that anyone else could have any remote access was consistently denied.
    Agreed. But surely any system ultimately has this capability/vulnerability is my point?

    Admin can always go behind the scenes. 

    My point was the denial isn’t (to me) credible  in high level terms. 

    But perhaps the denial was based on very careful use of language / description of scenarios when / where access is audited / intended  etc. 

    That doesn’t justify it to be clear. 
    When you log on to your computer or laptop at work your computer joins the network.

    But that doesn't mean that anyone in the IT department can access your computer and send emails, run your personal banking app, download porn or initiate transactions. 

    Yes - they can poke data into databases on the servers or adjust logs but they cannot log on to your computer unless you give them explicit permission or your password.

    If your company are able to logon to your networked computer at work they should tell you and you need to be very very careful! 
  • What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
    and the bigger problem is surely how Fujitsu staff made use of this remote access and for what purpose.
  • What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 


    It would appear to me that this level of 'Admin/Super User' was significantly lowered to the level of support user that wouldn't normally be seen in the commercial world, to help Fujitsu/Post Office cover their backs. I bet their support staff of the day could tell a tale or two but are probably gagged.
  • Off_it said:
    What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
    And the fact that anyone else could have any remote access was consistently denied.
    Agreed. But surely any system ultimately has this capability/vulnerability is my point?

    Admin can always go behind the scenes. 

    My point was the denial isn’t (to me) credible  in high level terms. 

    But perhaps the denial was based on very careful use of language / description of scenarios when / where access is audited / intended  etc. 

    That doesn’t justify it to be clear. 
    When you log on to your computer or laptop at work your computer joins the network.

    But that doesn't mean that anyone in the IT department can access your computer and send emails, run your personal banking app, download porn or initiate transactions. 

    Yes - they can poke data into databases on the servers or adjust logs but they cannot log on to your computer unless you give them explicit permission or your password.

    If your company are able to logon to your networked computer at work they should tell you and you need to be very very careful! 

    I worked for many Government agencies while I was working and this was usually covered in the contract of employment, however I doubt if the PostMasters/Mistresses were afforded this.

  • Off_it said:
    What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
    And the fact that anyone else could have any remote access was consistently denied.
    Agreed. But surely any system ultimately has this capability/vulnerability is my point?

    Admin can always go behind the scenes. 

    My point was the denial isn’t (to me) credible  in high level terms. 

    But perhaps the denial was based on very careful use of language / description of scenarios when / where access is audited / intended  etc. 

    That doesn’t justify it to be clear. 
    When you log on to your computer or laptop at work your computer joins the network.

    But that doesn't mean that anyone in the IT department can access your computer and send emails, run your personal banking app, download porn or initiate transactions. 

    Yes - they can poke data into databases on the servers or adjust logs but they cannot log on to your computer unless you give them explicit permission or your password.

    If your company are able to logon to your networked computer at work they should tell you and you need to be very very careful! 
    I was only referring to the latter I.e. adjusting entries etc. 

    That remains my point. 

    To say no one could access the system without your knowledge isn’t the whole truth / story. 

    It’s all in the words used / description of what scenarios are being considered. 


  • Off_it said:
    What i dont get is how the ‘no access’ by Fujitsu staff is being DESCRIBED/ INTERPRETED. 

    Super users / admin can always go in the ‘back door’ of a system. 

    I think some people are justifying their action or inaction by hiding behind some specific wording about what different staff could or could not do. 

    Does this mean that someone at Apple can log on to my phone as a superuser and run my banking app?

    These were meant to be local computers.
    With the best will in the world, every single computer in a network is connected to it for a multitude of reasons. Networks have been absolutely essential for over 30 years. 

    'Remote access' has been a thing for as long as networks have been a thing. 

    The problem here isn't the fact they were connected to a network, or even the fact that access to the remotely was possible. The problem is that Fujitsu had access remotely, and the postmasters didn't know it. 
    And the fact that anyone else could have any remote access was consistently denied.
    Agreed. But surely any system ultimately has this capability/vulnerability is my point?

    Admin can always go behind the scenes. 

    My point was the denial isn’t (to me) credible  in high level terms. 

    But perhaps the denial was based on very careful use of language / description of scenarios when / where access is audited / intended  etc. 

    That doesn’t justify it to be clear. 
    When you log on to your computer or laptop at work your computer joins the network.

    But that doesn't mean that anyone in the IT department can access your computer and send emails, run your personal banking app, download porn or initiate transactions. 

    Yes - they can poke data into databases on the servers or adjust logs but they cannot log on to your computer unless you give them explicit permission or your password.

    If your company are able to logon to your networked computer at work they should tell you and you need to be very very careful! 
    That should be the situation …….  As for giving anyone your password - don’t, ever !!!!!!
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