Based on Current Squad (Not Keepers): Champ/Top End L1 8 May Dobson Hector L1 Reg 8 Edmonds Green Gillesphey L.Jones T.Thomas T.Watson Edun Small Coventry Academy 8 Mitchell Asiimwe Anderson Kanu Leaburn
Not including loanees. Other player thoughts:
Keepers Isted - Should be back up next season. Still trying to figure out how that shot got through him, it was a great dive and looked a certain save...
AMB - Not good enough, behind Isted.
Ward - behind AMB.
Defenders Ness - There's a player there, needs to show consistency - Loan out maybe?
Ramsey - Not seen enough to decide yet.
Nazir Bakrin - Possibly given a chance in final few games, at 21 he's at an age now where he really needs to be around the squad.
Midfielders Terry Taylor - Undecided on him. Hasn't shown enough, but also been injured. Probably fits the League 1 group.
Euan Williams - I think he could do with a shot next season, if not before the season is out. At 21 he's at an age now where he really needs to be around the squad.
Jason Adigun - Another who should really get a chance before the season is over.
Jeremy Santos - as per the other two. Also at 21 he's at an age now where he really needs to be around the squad.
Forwards Campbell - not good enough sadly at this time and isn't young enough for the Academy 8 as it stands. Needs a L2 loan, maybe in January he'll have the confidence to kick on.
Aneke - probably fits the middle 8 but his fitness record keeps him out for me.
Lua Lua - Shown NOTHING.
Wickham - Has looked okay if not a little blunt since joining. Good goal this week though - I think he should fit the L1 8.
Tolu Ladapo - Probably would have shown more than his namesake.
Patrick Casey - No harm in giving him a go during the final few surely? His 2 mins against Oxford isn't really a fair chance for the lad
If we base Hector solely on his performances in a Charlton shirt, and not on his previous history, he is a regular league 1 player and not elite.
May and Dobson are the only players I’d put in that top 8 currently, and Dobson is likely out the door. I have hopes that Coventry could get there. But it will take some real transfer acumen to bring in five or six others who could feasibly be elite L1 players.
8 + 8 + 8 = Middle Table finish in League 1, flawed concept, but probably sounds good to investors, when pitching it to them.
Our squad under Bowyer was very similar. It relies on those top 8 genuinely being or developing into Championship quality players and a decent number of the academy adding to that top 8.
If you also want to progress in the Championship you’ll need to strengthen and that’s where many of the middle 8 would move on before or during your first season or so in the Championship.
Thinking about players who might be here next year…
Top 8: regulars in a promotion side, can play in the Champ. I’ll say May, Coventry, REG, Small fall into this category. In May and Small cases, it’s based on stand out performances this season. In Coventry and REG cases, it’s because they’ve done it before elsewhere and are still young enough that we can expect them to grow and improve. That’s four of the required eight.
Middle 8: regulars at L1 level, are available and can play solid minutes when called upon, probably not good enough for the step up. I’ll say Isted, Thomas, Hector, Gillesphey, Jones, Edun, Tennai, Taylor. That’s eight of the required eight but it includes a keeper, four centre backs and two full backs - we likely need to shift at least three of those seven on and plug the gaps in this this category with midfielders/wingers instead.
Academy 8: self-explanatory. Mitchell, Asiimwe, Anderson, Kanu, Leaburn. That’s five here. A bit light here too, especially if Ness and Campbell walk and/or an academy product is sold.
Hard to categorise at this stage / might not even be here next year anyway… AMB, Ness, Campbell, Ramsay, McGrandles, Fraser, Aneke, Wickham, Lua Lua.
I like what you've done there, but as with many things football, it's all down to interpretation. For example you've got Anderson, Kanu and Leaburn as academy players but there could be a case for saying that by next season they will be seasoned enough to count as the mid 8, indeed if Leaburn gets fit and plays to his potential, there could even be a case (tenuous, I grant you) for calling him top 8. I just hope that the board are thinking like you are, rather than how I fear they might. As for your 'hard to categorise' group, I'd think only Aneke and Wickham have the skills and experience to count as top 8, but probably aren't going to have the fitness to play regularly. That puts all of that group in the middle for me.
I hope as well that the board aren't just playing a numbers game, but think about the positions where we have the top 8. For me, it's most important to have a strong spine, and the ends of that spine are probably the most important two positions in the team. I'm more than happy with Alfie at the head, but if we're going for promotion we need a better keeper. I think we should keep either Isted or AMB as reserve keeper, but whoever it is, I don't want to see them turning out regularly.
Top 8: regulars in a promotion side, can play in the Champ. I’ll say May, Coventry, REG, Small fall into this category. In May and Small cases, it’s based on stand out performances this season. In Coventry and REG cases, it’s because they’ve done it before elsewhere and are still young enough that we can expect them to grow and improve. That’s four of the required eight.
If I remember the presentation correctly, the top group was the 'Elite 8' which meant players who are elite at this level. By my interpretation, that means they need to be performing at an elite level in this league in the way May is, and the way CBT was. I think the idea of saying that group is made up of players who could play in the Championship someday or have played there is a slightly looser interpretation.
Top 8: regulars in a promotion side, can play in the Champ. I’ll say May, Coventry, REG, Small fall into this category. In May and Small cases, it’s based on stand out performances this season. In Coventry and REG cases, it’s because they’ve done it before elsewhere and are still young enough that we can expect them to grow and improve. That’s four of the required eight.
If I remember the presentation correctly, the top group was the 'Elite 8' which meant players who are elite at this level. By my interpretation, that means they need to be performing at an elite level in this league in the way May is, and the way CBT was. I think the idea of saying that group is made up of players who could play in the Championship someday or have played there is a slightly looser interpretation.
Well this is exactly why the whole thing is a load of crap - not you personally Chunes but the fact that your post very neatly illustrates that which players count as "elite" or not is so completely subjective its basically worthless.
May is the leagues top scorer so he's in that group by default but outside of him there's probably 5 or 6 that some say are elite and some don't agree. And probably another 4 or 5 that might or might not be - Leaburn and Aneke have the quality but not consistency, they don't really fit in any of these categories.
It looks good on paper (or a PowerPoint) but in the immortal words of Captain E. Blackadder, Esq.: "There was one tiny flaw in the plan... it was bollocks."
Totally agree @thenewbie. I'm not at all on board with the model in the first place. Having just 16 senior players in the squad is asking for trouble.
Of we get 4, 6, or worse still, 8 injuries as has happened on many a previous season, that leaves us with potentially only 16 squad players. Having possibly 3 juniors in the first 11 and all five subs being the same, would result in there being a very very weak squad. Worse still, 5, 6, 7 juniors in the first 11 is beyond concerning.
I doubt many league 1 teams have 8 players that can comfortably step up to championship level.
I think its a nonsense because the key is a functioning team that has all the required components. Which we haven't had all season. Once we get that, we may be surprised how some of our existing players suddenly appear very good.
Goes without saying both our keepers are shit though.
People can say it’s subjective if they like and I would agree that if they had said “elite”, “middle” and “academy” without any descriptors or clarification then sure.
But they were pretty clear on what each category consisted of as well as making it clear that academy graduates DO NOT count as part of either of the other categories.
Elite: “any side in L1 would want and/or can make the jump to the Championship”
Given this definition, I stand by what I said. May, Small, REG and Coventry are four of the eight. May & Small because I believe any L1 club would want them / take them (their Championship ability TBD) and REG & Coventry because they’ve been there and done it at a young age already and I don’t doubt they’d step up for us.
By their own definitions, Leaburn / Kanu / Anderson cannot be counted outside of the academy group.
That leaves us needing four/five elites and four/five consistents to balance out the squad.
Ability of the players themselves can be subjective if you really like. But you have to take a wider view than only what players have done in three months in a Charlton shirt sometimes to predict where we might focus recruitment efforts in the summer.
But then what about players like Hector? He's played in the Championship and not looked out of place, he's currently performing well... BUT he's also had patches of making errors and getting complacent. Which is his "actual" level?
Aneke when fit and firing is an elite player, he's an absolute unit who is also very skilful.... but he's hardly ever fit enough. Any other team would want a fit Aneke but at the exact same time he CAN'T be considered even "solid, reliable" when he's injured so much.
That's just two examples. I stick by it, these categories are pure fluff and PR talk and not practical or objective at all.
But then what about players like Hector? He's played in the Championship and not looked out of place, he's currently performing well... BUT he's also had patches of making errors and getting complacent. Which is his "actual" level?
Aneke when fit and firing is an elite player, he's an absolute unit who is also very skilful.... but he's hardly ever fit enough. Any other team would want a fit Aneke but at the exact same time he CAN'T be considered even "solid, reliable" when he's injured so much.
That's just two examples. I stick by it, these categories are pure fluff and PR talk and not practical or objective at all.
Hector - he’s on the wrong side of 30 for a professional footballer (in contrast to Coventry and REG who have played at that level and can still improve). We’ve also seen him for about 12 months now to be fairly confident that he is no longer worthy of being considered an elite player at this level. I’d have hoped he could still be when he signed but it didn’t work out that way.
Someone like Scott Fraser is another that fills into this group - we thought we might be getting an elite player but 12 months later it turned out he’s not.
IMO Coventry and REG have another 12 months to prove they’re in that elite group or they’ll be downgraded too.
Aneke - if you’re properly squad planning (which is the ultimate purpose of this exercise), then availability has to be taken into account alongside ability. He doesn’t really fit neatly into a category but he’s definitely not in the elite group.
Understand trying to fit them all into rigid buckets is a pointless exercise but that’s never how I took the point of this to be. It’s just a tool/exercise to help prioritise where you need to focus moving forward.
Let's play along with the 8x8x8 model, and try to ensure we have cover in all positions.
In my opinion, the "elite" has to be down the spine of the team, so that's:
New GK, 2 x new CB, Coventry, 2 new CM (one box to box, one attacking), May, new CF (Physical) = 8
The "consistent" largely made up of existing players:
Small, Ramsey, new LB, 2 from Reg, Jones and Gillesphey, Taylor (debatable but let's see), new CM, new Winger (maybe Lua Lua) = 8
"Academy" - largely pick themselves:
AMB, Assimwe, Mitchell, Ness (not strictly Academy but close enough), Anderson, Campbell, Kanu, Leaburn = 8
Now Jones has talked about a squad of 25, and I think that's where Aneke comes in. He has a year left, no one will take him, so he's a wild card that will be used off the bench if/when fit.
The above means we have 2 keepers, 2 for each wingback position, 6 CB's, 6 CM's and 5 CF's (including Aneke), plus a couple of wingers if/when we have to mix up the formation.
A first team of:
GK - New RWB - Ramsey LWB - Small CB - New CB - New CB - Reg, Jones or Gillesphey CM - Coventry CM - New CM - New CF - May CF - New
A second team of:
GK - AMB RWB - Assimwe LWB - New CB - Reg, Jones or Gillesphey CB - Ness CB - Mitchell CM - Taylor CM - Anderson CM - New CF - Kanu CF - Leaburn
+ Chuks and a couple of wingers.
So, we need to recruit 9 new players, 6 elite and 3 consistent, and let go/sell - Istead, Ward, Watson, Edun, Chin, one of Reg/Gillesphey or Jones, Hector, Thomas, McGrandles, Fraser, Henry, Payne, Wickham, Lua Lua (maybe), DJ.
I've not included Dobson in any of the above, as I'm making the assumption he's gone.
It's going to be a busy summer!
In my opinion - the above could do with a couple of additional players, I'd prefer to keep T Watson and loan out Assimwe, and I'd keep all 3 of Reg, Jones and Gillesphey!
I still can't get over how embarrassing and amateur that PowerPoint presentation was, GCSE level stuff.
- players that any side in league one would want
- have the ability to make the jump to the championship
It sounds so cringe and amateur. All just totally unnecessary, and I hope now we have Jones it will all be total bollocks.
Sign good players who are in-form, no need to categorise them, and sign as many as the wage books allow to give us the best chance of promotion. All the rest is noise.
I still can't get over how embarrassing and amateur that PowerPoint presentation was, GCSE level stuff.
- players that any side in league one would want
- have the ability to make the jump to the championship
It sounds so cringe and amateur. All just totally unnecessary, and I hope now we have Jones it will all be total bollocks.
Sign good players who are in-form, no need to categorise them, and sign as many as the wage books allow to give us the best chance of promotion. All the rest is noise.
Squad planning is a good thing. You can’t just sign “good players” without any kind of strategy otherwise you’ll probably end up with Charlie Kirk, Scott Fraser and Conor McGrandles.
Footballers are humans and trying to fit them into neat boxes is never going to work so easily. But you need to draw the line somewhere to understand where you are at and how you can do better.
I think they shot themselves in the foot by laying it out so plainly - the impression it gave off is that you’re either elite or you’re not. Which, when the club is flirting with relegation, looks very silly.
Giving the club the benefit of the doubt, I reckon they are (at the very least I think they should be) treating it as much more fluid concept. Just as I said that IMO Coventry and REG have the next 12 months or so to prove they are worthy of that “elite” tag, we’ve similarly seen players like Small and CBT who have come out of the “consistent” group and surpassed expectations.
I suspect we won’t get this kind of insight again based on the reaction it got.
I still can't get over how embarrassing and amateur that PowerPoint presentation was, GCSE level stuff.
- players that any side in league one would want
- have the ability to make the jump to the championship
It sounds so cringe and amateur. All just totally unnecessary, and I hope now we have Jones it will all be total bollocks.
Sign good players who are in-form, no need to categorise them, and sign as many as the wage books allow to give us the best chance of promotion. All the rest is noise.
I’d be surprised if clubs doing well keep it as simple as “sign good players who are in form”. We don’t need to know the details but they’ll likely have plans around how the budget will be spent.
There was an interview with Peter Varney maybe a few years back in which he talked about the summer of 2011, I believe they had a budget per position, and if we wanted to spend more in one position we’d need to reduce the budget in another.
The 888 plan is just another way of presenting it, we’ll have a budget for the top 8, while using the academy players will generally be cheaper so it increases the budget available for the other groups.
I'm not against planning and preparing to try and improve the quality of business we do, it's the 8-8-8 concept/model specifically that I question.
Like, if a player who was supposedly one of the "decent" ones finds an extra gear and turns in "elite" performances, with the interest of other teams accordingly growing, do we then have to offer "elite" wages to keep them or do we sell them for profit - but then do they get replaced with an elite player or a decent one?
Or what about questions of how exactly you break down the 8 - if presumably the 1st choice keeper is one, then how do you decide what other positions you want to focus on... or is that decided by availability.
Planning has to be more thorough than just "throw money at good players in form" but this 888 idea really doesn't fill me with confidence.
Not sure it has been mentioned but I am sure the problem with Dobson is the SMT consider him to be part of the "consistent" category and therfore his wages will be limited by the upper end of that budget. I think this is about a wage structure as much as anything. No idea what the numbers/Budget is.
Has anyone tried applying this to say our promotion squad under Bow to see how it stacks up?
Lets have a go we used 26 players who made 10 or more appearances that season How would we categorise them as they were at the time? Ive gone with 7 elite, 12 League 1 and 7 academy (more were used but I've cut it at 10 appearances in all comps).
Its all a bit subjective really - Williams Sarr and Steer were all seen as above league 1 at the time. Aribo and Grant were certainly elite but count in the academy box. Fosu probably could have been considered elite but at the time was not putting in performances and considered out of favour.
Elite Bielik Bauer Taylor Cullen Williams Sarr Steer
Lg 1 Page Pearce Fosu Reeves Igor Pratley Ward Purrington Solly Marshall Parker Ajose
Academy Phillips Dijksteel Aribo Grant Morgan Lapslie Reeco
Comments
Maybe a touch of what we have seen before where players up their effort as their contracts come to an end.
If you also want to progress in the Championship you’ll need to strengthen and that’s where many of the middle 8 would move on before or during your first season or so in the Championship.
I hope as well that the board aren't just playing a numbers game, but think about the positions where we have the top 8. For me, it's most important to have a strong spine, and the ends of that spine are probably the most important two positions in the team. I'm more than happy with Alfie at the head, but if we're going for promotion we need a better keeper. I think we should keep either Isted or AMB as reserve keeper, but whoever it is, I don't want to see them turning out regularly.
May is the leagues top scorer so he's in that group by default but outside of him there's probably 5 or 6 that some say are elite and some don't agree. And probably another 4 or 5 that might or might not be - Leaburn and Aneke have the quality but not consistency, they don't really fit in any of these categories.
It looks good on paper (or a PowerPoint) but in the immortal words of Captain E. Blackadder, Esq.: "There was one tiny flaw in the plan... it was bollocks."
I think its a nonsense because the key is a functioning team that has all the required components. Which we haven't had all season. Once we get that, we may be surprised how some of our existing players suddenly appear very good.
Goes without saying both our keepers are shit though.
Never going to happen.
But they were pretty clear on what each category consisted of as well as making it clear that academy graduates DO NOT count as part of either of the other categories.
Given this definition, I stand by what I said. May, Small, REG and Coventry are four of the eight. May & Small because I believe any L1 club would want them / take them (their Championship ability TBD) and REG & Coventry because they’ve been there and done it at a young age already and I don’t doubt they’d step up for us.
By their own definitions, Leaburn / Kanu / Anderson cannot be counted outside of the academy group.
That leaves us needing four/five elites and four/five consistents to balance out the squad.
Ability of the players themselves can be subjective if you really like. But you have to take a wider view than only what players have done in three months in a Charlton shirt sometimes to predict where we might focus recruitment efforts in the summer.
Goodbye to all of our CB's then (except REG).
Aneke when fit and firing is an elite player, he's an absolute unit who is also very skilful.... but he's hardly ever fit enough. Any other team would want a fit Aneke but at the exact same time he CAN'T be considered even "solid, reliable" when he's injured so much.
That's just two examples. I stick by it, these categories are pure fluff and PR talk and not practical or objective at all.
1. Injury prone
2. Not good enough
3. Utter dross
An embarrassing slide that I interpreted as, "We haven't got a clue, so here's what we're gonna do."
IMO Coventry and REG have another 12 months to prove they’re in that elite group or they’ll be downgraded too.
Aneke - if you’re properly squad planning (which is the ultimate purpose of this exercise), then availability has to be taken into account alongside ability. He doesn’t really fit neatly into a category but he’s definitely not in the elite group.
Understand trying to fit them all into rigid buckets is a pointless exercise but that’s never how I took the point of this to be. It’s just a tool/exercise to help prioritise where you need to focus moving forward.
In my opinion, the "elite" has to be down the spine of the team, so that's:
New GK, 2 x new CB, Coventry, 2 new CM (one box to box, one attacking), May, new CF (Physical) = 8
The "consistent" largely made up of existing players:
Small, Ramsey, new LB, 2 from Reg, Jones and Gillesphey, Taylor (debatable but let's see), new CM, new Winger (maybe Lua Lua) = 8
"Academy" - largely pick themselves:
AMB, Assimwe, Mitchell, Ness (not strictly Academy but close enough), Anderson, Campbell, Kanu, Leaburn = 8
Now Jones has talked about a squad of 25, and I think that's where Aneke comes in. He has a year left, no one will take him, so he's a wild card that will be used off the bench if/when fit.
The above means we have 2 keepers, 2 for each wingback position, 6 CB's, 6 CM's and 5 CF's (including Aneke), plus a couple of wingers if/when we have to mix up the formation.
A first team of:
GK - New
RWB - Ramsey
LWB - Small
CB - New
CB - New
CB - Reg, Jones or Gillesphey
CM - Coventry
CM - New
CM - New
CF - May
CF - New
A second team of:
GK - AMB
RWB - Assimwe
LWB - New
CB - Reg, Jones or Gillesphey
CB - Ness
CB - Mitchell
CM - Taylor
CM - Anderson
CM - New
CF - Kanu
CF - Leaburn
+ Chuks and a couple of wingers.
So, we need to recruit 9 new players, 6 elite and 3 consistent, and let go/sell - Istead, Ward, Watson, Edun, Chin, one of Reg/Gillesphey or Jones, Hector, Thomas, McGrandles, Fraser, Henry, Payne, Wickham, Lua Lua (maybe), DJ.
I've not included Dobson in any of the above, as I'm making the assumption he's gone.
It's going to be a busy summer!
In my opinion - the above could do with a couple of additional players, I'd prefer to keep T Watson and loan out Assimwe, and I'd keep all 3 of Reg, Jones and Gillesphey!
- players that any side in league one would want
- have the ability to make the jump to the championship
It sounds so cringe and amateur. All just totally unnecessary, and I hope now we have Jones it will all be total bollocks.
Sign good players who are in-form, no need to categorise them, and sign as many as the wage books allow to give us the best chance of promotion. All the rest is noise.
We decided Coventry has been signed as one of the elites
So we had
May
Coventry
Dobson
As the elites
So still missing 5
I think they shot themselves in the foot by laying it out so plainly - the impression it gave off is that you’re either elite or you’re not. Which, when the club is flirting with relegation, looks very silly.
There was an interview with Peter Varney maybe a few years back in which he talked about the summer of 2011, I believe they had a budget per position, and if we wanted to spend more in one position we’d need to reduce the budget in another.
The 888 plan is just another way of presenting it, we’ll have a budget for the top 8, while using the academy players will generally be cheaper so it increases the budget available for the other groups.
Like, if a player who was supposedly one of the "decent" ones finds an extra gear and turns in "elite" performances, with the interest of other teams accordingly growing, do we then have to offer "elite" wages to keep them or do we sell them for profit - but then do they get replaced with an elite player or a decent one?
Or what about questions of how exactly you break down the 8 - if presumably the 1st choice keeper is one, then how do you decide what other positions you want to focus on... or is that decided by availability.
Planning has to be more thorough than just "throw money at good players in form" but this 888 idea really doesn't fill me with confidence.
Who we didn't want.
Good start then.
Lets have a go we used 26 players who made 10 or more appearances that season How would we categorise them as they were at the time? Ive gone with 7 elite, 12 League 1 and 7 academy (more were used but I've cut it at 10 appearances in all comps).
Its all a bit subjective really - Williams Sarr and Steer were all seen as above league 1 at the time. Aribo and Grant were certainly elite but count in the academy box. Fosu probably could have been considered elite but at the time was not putting in performances and considered out of favour.
Elite
Bielik
Bauer
Taylor
Cullen
Williams
Sarr
Steer
Lg 1
Page
Pearce
Fosu
Reeves
Igor
Pratley
Ward
Purrington
Solly
Marshall
Parker
Ajose
Academy
Phillips
Dijksteel
Aribo
Grant
Morgan
Lapslie
Reeco