Men telling me that a man winning a women’s event is irrelevant.
Yeah, cheers guys.
She isn't a man. No-one is claiming that she's a man, including those who are claiming that she has a chromosomal irregularity that would make her ineligible for women's sport. The people making those claims have no credibility, but even they don't think she's trans.
The lack of credibility of the IBA doesn't in itself prove that they're lying, neither does the fact that when they held their press conference they couldn't even agree what test they were claiming they'd run that she'd failed. But I want to seem some actual evidence before we start disqualifying people, and I want to know why that evidence wasn't presented to the IOC in advance so that, if one or both of the two boxers isn't eligible, they could have been excluded without ruining the competition for everyone else.
I find it bizarre, and actually quite worrying, that some people can form some very clear and entrenched views based on "facts" that just aren't true at all.
Obviously we've seen that recently with all the aggro around the UK, but this is another example of where the facts don't seem to trouble some people.
For example, my mum is insistent that the Algerian "is a man", even though nobody in any sort of official, or semi-official, capacity has ever said that, as far as I'm aware.
(Trigger warning for some of the rantier posters it does discuss the issue of micro penises)
There is zero factual evidence of XY chromosomes in either boxer, only confused statements from a federation that’s been done for corruption.
Until some actual proper gender testing is done by a reputable organisation, we do not know either way and these are nothing more than accusations without proper basis. Gender testing as a regular practice is a separate topic that can be debated.
Dr. Emma Hilton, as a trustee of the Sex Matters charity, isn’t exactly going to come out with a balanced view on this.
The IOC is one of the most historically corrupt organisations going. The excellent Lords of the Rings gives good insight on that.
Dr Emma Hilton is an expert in developmental biology so I take her views and insights as credible.
Again ....IOC has a horrible track record of corruption from top down.
Balanced maybe but I think Dr Emma Harris' view is more credible than sports journalist Dan Roan on the matter.
But (genuinely) thank you for the reasoned disagreement without calls of transphobia/ bigotry. It is healthy to have disagreement particularly when no one has the true facts on this particular case of the 2 boxers.
Dr. Emma might know a lot about the scientifics of XX/XY etc. but her follow-on arguments from there for this specific case are based on evidence that no one has seen.
She’s taking IBA statements as factual because it suits her already entrenched point of view. She may be credible on the specifics of the science but I cannot accept what she has to say as unbiased.
The IOC have work to do on this issue. But it’s an incredibly delicate subject and could lead to thousands of cases of invasion of women’s privacy if not handled correctly.
Appreciate the thank you and return it. Not sure we are going to agree but glad to be able to have the discussion in the way it’s being handled.
The IOC and whoever take over the running of Olympic boxing need to get on top of this, but at the moment, it’s here-say from an organisation that is heavily Russian backed, and no one has seen the evidence they supposedly have.
Also, Algeria isn’t a country that’s exactly forgiving for gay or trans people, not like there is a long tradition of LGBTQ people being well looked after
''Two members of Team GB's medical team have helped save the life of the Uzbekistan Olympic boxing team's head coach.
Tulkin Kilichev was celebrating a gold medal for Uzbek boxer Hasanboy Dusmatov in the warm-up area at Roland Garros in Paris on 8 August when he went into cardiac arrest.
Team GB physiotherapist Robbie Lillis, who was in the arena at the time, said there was "a cry for a doctor" prompting him and colleague Dr Harj Singh to rush over to perform CPR and use a defibrillator.
Mr Kilochev is understood to be in a stable condition in hospital.''
Very suprised there wasnt a medic team in the venue?
I wouldn't miss the boxing if it got axed from the Olympics. It seems the only thing consistent about the judging is the inconsistency. Two bronze medals given out instead of contested for. Why? That's not winning one, It's a consolation prize. Replace it with darts and our medal chances would be much improved.
Men telling me that a man winning a women’s event is irrelevant.
Yeah, cheers guys.
She isn't a man. No-one is claiming that she's a man, including those who are claiming that she has a chromosomal irregularity that would make her ineligible for women's sport. The people making those claims have no credibility, but even they don't think she's trans.
The lack of credibility of the IBA doesn't in itself prove that they're lying, neither does the fact that when they held their press conference they couldn't even agree what test they were claiming they'd run that she'd failed. But I want to seem some actual evidence before we start disqualifying people, and I want to know why that evidence wasn't presented to the IOC in advance so that, if one or both of the two boxers isn't eligible, they could have been excluded without ruining the competition for everyone else.
I find it bizarre, and actually quite worrying, that some people can form some very clear and entrenched views based on "facts" that just aren't true at all.
Obviously we've seen that recently with all the aggro around the UK, but this is another example of where the facts don't seem to trouble some people.
For example, my mum is insistent that the Algerian "is a man", even though nobody in any sort of official, or semi-official, capacity has ever said that, as far as I'm aware.
(Trigger warning for some of the rantier posters it does discuss the issue of micro penises)
I thought I'd listen to the first 10 minutes, but it was a pleasure to listen to such an intelligent doctor/discussion and I ended up listening to the end. Intelligence plus common sense is not so common these days. Thanks RCT.
I watched the whole video and Dr Hilton explained why being born & raised as a female can be a nonsense in the case of these 2 boxers. It really doesn't matter if they are sitting next to you at work or in a restaurant etc. But I agree with the doctor that it very much matters when they have gone through male puberty have the strength of a man and are punching women in the face.
"Despite being informed of the IBA's test results last year, the IOC has always recognised the boxers as female athletes, insisting that because they were born and raised as women, and are registered as women in their passports, they are eligible for women's competition under their rules".
We won 29 golds in London and 22 in Tokyo finishing 3rd and 4th respectively. Just 14 in Paris.
The GB Olympic committee targeted 70 medals for Paris and a top European finish. We actually finished 7th in the table behind France and the Netherlands. Also leapfrogged by Japan and the Aussies and with no Russian athletes competing. I'm not sure it'll be seen as a great success.
They'll have to look long and hard at the lottery money before they dish it out next time.
Felt like there was quite a few golds they expected to get that didn't happen - Peaty, Beth Shriver, Joe Clarke in the Canoe , maybe a couple of track cycling golds too.
We won 29 golds in London and 22 in Tokyo finishing 3rd and 4th respectively. Just 14 in Paris.
The GB Olympic committee targeted 70 medals for Paris and a top European finish. We actually finished 7th in the table behind France and the Netherlands. Also leapfrogged by Japan and the Aussies and with no Russian athletes competing. I'm not sure it'll be seen as a great success.
They'll have to look long and hard at the lottery money before they dish it out next time.
It wasn’t 70, the UK Sport Target was 50-70 so in terms of funding it’s fine. Few seconds/metres here and there and you’re looking at 20 golds. Won’t be too much issue with future funding
Poor French women (fuck em) throws from just inside the 2 point line and the lose by a point when they needed 3 for extra time in the basketball another gold for the yanks
We won 29 golds in London and 22 in Tokyo finishing 3rd and 4th respectively. Just 14 in Paris.
The GB Olympic committee targeted 70 medals for Paris and a top European finish. We actually finished 7th in the table behind France and the Netherlands. Also leapfrogged by Japan and the Aussies and with no Russian athletes competing. I'm not sure it'll be seen as a great success.
They'll have to look long and hard at the lottery money before they dish it out next time.
It wasn’t 70, the UK Sport Target was 50-70 so in terms of funding it’s fine. Few seconds/metres here and there and you’re looking at 20 golds. Won’t be too much issue with future funding
And we finished a creditable 3rd in the medal table, top of the European countries, if you're looking at it in the USA. Only 14 golds is a disappointing return though.
I watched the whole video and Dr Hilton explained why being born & raised as a female can be a nonsense in the case of these 2 boxers. It really doesn't matter if they are sitting next to you at work or in a restaurant etc. But I agree with the doctor that it very much matters when they have gone through male puberty have the strength of a man and are punching women in the face.
"Despite being informed of the IBA's test results last year, the IOC has always recognised the boxers as female athletes, insisting that because they were born and raised as women, and are registered as women in their passports, they are eligible for women's competition under their rules".
In Algeria, she would have been born and raised as a female because she has female body parts.
I will restate my position as I see the situation as plainly as I can: the primary argument of whether Khelif and Lin qualify to be boxing in the women’s competition hinges entirely on whether you trust the IBA are telling the truth or not. Given that they’ve backpedaled on what they actually tested for multiple times, I do not believe them.
(The secondary argument is that gender is incredibly f***ing complicated and this should serve as evidence of that for anyone who says otherwise.)
I watched the whole video and Dr Hilton explained why being born & raised as a female can be a nonsense in the case of these 2 boxers. It really doesn't matter if they are sitting next to you at work or in a restaurant etc. But I agree with the doctor that it very much matters when they have gone through male puberty have the strength of a man and are punching women in the face.
"Despite being informed of the IBA's test results last year, the IOC has always recognised the boxers as female athletes, insisting that because they were born and raised as women, and are registered as women in their passports, they are eligible for women's competition under their rules".
In Algeria, she would have been born and raised as a female because she has female body parts.
I will restate my position as I see the situation as plainly as I can: the primary argument of whether Khelif and Lin qualify to be boxing in the women’s competition hinges entirely on whether you trust the IBA are telling the truth or not. Given that they’ve backpedaled on what they actually tested for multiple times, I do not believe them.
(The secondary argument is that gender is incredibly f***ing complicated and this should serve as evidence of that for anyone who says otherwise.)
Not believing the IBA is fair enough but what's the excuse for both not appealing / withdrawing appeals with the Court of Arbitration for Sport? Legally speaking it means both girls accepted the IBAs decision.
I watched the whole video and Dr Hilton explained why being born & raised as a female can be a nonsense in the case of these 2 boxers. It really doesn't matter if they are sitting next to you at work or in a restaurant etc. But I agree with the doctor that it very much matters when they have gone through male puberty have the strength of a man and are punching women in the face.
"Despite being informed of the IBA's test results last year, the IOC has always recognised the boxers as female athletes, insisting that because they were born and raised as women, and are registered as women in their passports, they are eligible for women's competition under their rules".
In Algeria, she would have been born and raised as a female because she has female body parts.
I will restate my position as I see the situation as plainly as I can: the primary argument of whether Khelif and Lin qualify to be boxing in the women’s competition hinges entirely on whether you trust the IBA are telling the truth or not. Given that they’ve backpedaled on what they actually tested for multiple times, I do not believe them.
(The secondary argument is that gender is incredibly f***ing complicated and this should serve as evidence of that for anyone who says otherwise.)
Not believing the IBA is fair enough but what's the excuse for both not appealing / withdrawing appeals with the Court of Arbitration for Sport? Legally speaking it means both girls accepted the IBAs decision.
We won 29 golds in London and 22 in Tokyo finishing 3rd and 4th respectively. Just 14 in Paris.
The GB Olympic committee targeted 70 medals for Paris and a top European finish. We actually finished 7th in the table behind France and the Netherlands. Also leapfrogged by Japan and the Aussies and with no Russian athletes competing. I'm not sure it'll be seen as a great success.
They'll have to look long and hard at the lottery money before they dish it out next time.
We were the top Europeans in terms of medals and achieved our target which was 50/70
Men telling me that a man winning a women’s event is irrelevant.
Yeah, cheers guys.
She isn't a man. No-one is claiming that she's a man, including those who are claiming that she has a chromosomal irregularity that would make her ineligible for women's sport. The people making those claims have no credibility, but even they don't think she's trans.
The lack of credibility of the IBA doesn't in itself prove that they're lying, neither does the fact that when they held their press conference they couldn't even agree what test they were claiming they'd run that she'd failed. But I want to seem some actual evidence before we start disqualifying people, and I want to know why that evidence wasn't presented to the IOC in advance so that, if one or both of the two boxers isn't eligible, they could have been excluded without ruining the competition for everyone else.
I wasn’t talking about the boxer in question when I said that. Leaving aside the IBA, the IOC used the fact that this particular boxer was identified as female on her birth certificate therefore her passport says female. Thats it, that’s the evidence that was deemed good enough.
Thats not science. Until real science is used, I refuse to be told by any man that there hasn’t been an injustice here.
Because her parents thought, 20-odd years ago (don’t know exactly how old she is), let’s register our son as a girl so when he grows up he can win a gold medal at boxing.
The IOC and whoever take over the running of Olympic boxing need to get on top of this, but at the moment, it’s here-say from an organisation that is heavily Russian backed, and no one has seen the evidence they supposedly have.
Also, Algeria isn’t a country that’s exactly forgiving for gay or trans people, not like there is a long tradition of LGBTQ people being well looked after
The chances of anyone taking over Olympic boxing were already minimal - the IBA were never going to cooperate with another governing body getting set up, and have made it very clear recently that they would actively work to undermine it. It's not happening. Which means there won't be any boxing in the next Olympics. Those who want to watch martial arts at the Olympics will have to make do with Taekwondo, Wrestling and Judo.
Meanwhile, the world championships will continue to be run by the IBA, these two boxers won't be eligible and it won't matter in the slightest whether the IBA have any credible evidence or not - they're the governing body and what they say goes. And lots of people who claim to care deeply about this issue will forget all about it.
Yes, ideally people would get on top of this issue and work out a solution that offers both fairness and safety. Other sports seem to be able to manage it. But it's not going to happen in boxing and there's really no point us all getting distracted from talking abo0ut the Olympics by this issue which has arisen specifically in this one tournament and that neither the IOC nor the IBA has any interest in resolving in a way that helps the actual athletes.
Men telling me that a man winning a women’s event is irrelevant.
Yeah, cheers guys.
She isn't a man. No-one is claiming that she's a man, including those who are claiming that she has a chromosomal irregularity that would make her ineligible for women's sport. The people making those claims have no credibility, but even they don't think she's trans.
The lack of credibility of the IBA doesn't in itself prove that they're lying, neither does the fact that when they held their press conference they couldn't even agree what test they were claiming they'd run that she'd failed. But I want to seem some actual evidence before we start disqualifying people, and I want to know why that evidence wasn't presented to the IOC in advance so that, if one or both of the two boxers isn't eligible, they could have been excluded without ruining the competition for everyone else.
I wasn’t talking about the boxer in question when I said that. Leaving aside the IBA, the IOC used the fact that this particular boxer was identified as female on her birth certificate therefore her passport says female. Thats it, that’s the evidence that was deemed good enough.
Thats not science. Until real science is used, I refuse to be told by any man that there hasn’t been an injustice here.
Because her parents thought, 20-odd years ago (don’t know exactly how old she is), let’s register our son as a girl so when he grows up he can win a gold medal at boxing.
I presume you haven't watched the video that explains how someone of let's possibly describe them as intersex and possibly looked more like having female genitalia at birth can at puberty develop a male frame, male muscular physique and male genitalia rather than female.
Men telling me that a man winning a women’s event is irrelevant.
Yeah, cheers guys.
She isn't a man. No-one is claiming that she's a man, including those who are claiming that she has a chromosomal irregularity that would make her ineligible for women's sport. The people making those claims have no credibility, but even they don't think she's trans.
The lack of credibility of the IBA doesn't in itself prove that they're lying, neither does the fact that when they held their press conference they couldn't even agree what test they were claiming they'd run that she'd failed. But I want to seem some actual evidence before we start disqualifying people, and I want to know why that evidence wasn't presented to the IOC in advance so that, if one or both of the two boxers isn't eligible, they could have been excluded without ruining the competition for everyone else.
I wasn’t talking about the boxer in question when I said that. Leaving aside the IBA, the IOC used the fact that this particular boxer was identified as female on her birth certificate therefore her passport says female. Thats it, that’s the evidence that was deemed good enough.
Thats not science. Until real science is used, I refuse to be told by any man that there hasn’t been an injustice here.
Because her parents thought, 20-odd years ago (don’t know exactly how old she is), let’s register our son as a girl so when he grows up he can win a gold medal at boxing.
I presume you haven't watched the video that explains how someone of let's possibly describe them as intersex and possibly looked more like having female genitalia at birth can at puberty develop a male frame, male muscular physique and male genitalia rather than female.
Absolutely. Gender is complicated. But good luck making that argument with the Algerian authorities.
I think @Swindon_Addick summed it up best above. Neither the IBA or the IOC come out of this looking competent - in four years time the IOC will just avoid it altogether unless the IBA comes under some miraculous reform. Which is a massive shame for the female, and male, boxers who are the ones who suffer here.
I watched the whole video and Dr Hilton explained why being born & raised as a female can be a nonsense in the case of these 2 boxers. It really doesn't matter if they are sitting next to you at work or in a restaurant etc. But I agree with the doctor that it very much matters when they have gone through male puberty have the strength of a man and are punching women in the face.
"Despite being informed of the IBA's test results last year, the IOC has always recognised the boxers as female athletes, insisting that because they were born and raised as women, and are registered as women in their passports, they are eligible for women's competition under their rules".
Look at her record before stating strength of a man. Plenty of women in the pros punch far harder.
Men telling me that a man winning a women’s event is irrelevant.
Yeah, cheers guys.
She isn't a man. No-one is claiming that she's a man, including those who are claiming that she has a chromosomal irregularity that would make her ineligible for women's sport. The people making those claims have no credibility, but even they don't think she's trans.
The lack of credibility of the IBA doesn't in itself prove that they're lying, neither does the fact that when they held their press conference they couldn't even agree what test they were claiming they'd run that she'd failed. But I want to seem some actual evidence before we start disqualifying people, and I want to know why that evidence wasn't presented to the IOC in advance so that, if one or both of the two boxers isn't eligible, they could have been excluded without ruining the competition for everyone else.
I wasn’t talking about the boxer in question when I said that. Leaving aside the IBA, the IOC used the fact that this particular boxer was identified as female on her birth certificate therefore her passport says female. Thats it, that’s the evidence that was deemed good enough.
Thats not science. Until real science is used, I refuse to be told by any man that there hasn’t been an injustice here.
Because her parents thought, 20-odd years ago (don’t know exactly how old she is), let’s register our son as a girl so when he grows up he can win a gold medal at boxing.
I presume you haven't watched the video that explains how someone of let's possibly describe them as intersex and possibly looked more like having female genitalia at birth can at puberty develop a male frame, male muscular physique and male genitalia rather than female.
Absolutely. Gender is complicated. But good luck making that argument with the Algerian authorities.
I think @Swindon_Addick summed it up best above. Neither the IBA or the IOC come out of this looking competent - in four years time the IOC will just avoid it altogether unless the IBA comes under some miraculous reform. Which is a massive shame for the female, and male, boxers who are the ones who suffer here.
Agreed. This should have been sorted by the IOC well in advance as Dr Hilton said.
Comments
The traditional power houses of USA (you can get a full college scholarship through wrestling) and Iran only picked up 2 each.
BBC;
''Two members of Team GB's medical team have helped save the life of the Uzbekistan Olympic boxing team's head coach.
Tulkin Kilichev was celebrating a gold medal for Uzbek boxer Hasanboy Dusmatov in the warm-up area at Roland Garros in Paris on 8 August when he went into cardiac arrest.
Team GB physiotherapist Robbie Lillis, who was in the arena at the time, said there was "a cry for a doctor" prompting him and colleague Dr Harj Singh to rush over to perform CPR and use a defibrillator.
Mr Kilochev is understood to be in a stable condition in hospital.''
Very suprised there wasnt a medic team in the venue?
Intelligence plus common sense is not so common these days.
Thanks RCT.
It really doesn't matter if they are sitting next to you at work or in a restaurant etc.
But I agree with the doctor that it very much matters when they have gone through male puberty have the strength of a man and are punching women in the face.
"Despite being informed of the IBA's test results last year, the IOC has always recognised the boxers as female athletes, insisting that because they were born and raised as women, and are registered as women in their passports, they are eligible for women's competition under their rules".
The GB Olympic committee targeted 70 medals for Paris and a top European finish. We actually finished 7th in the table behind France and the Netherlands. Also leapfrogged by Japan and the Aussies and with no Russian athletes competing. I'm not sure it'll be seen as a great success.
They'll have to look long and hard at the lottery money before they dish it out next time.
I will restate my position as I see the situation as plainly as I can: the primary argument of whether Khelif and Lin qualify to be boxing in the women’s competition hinges entirely on whether you trust the IBA are telling the truth or not. Given that they’ve backpedaled on what they actually tested for multiple times, I do not believe them.
(The secondary argument is that gender is incredibly f***ing complicated and this should serve as evidence of that for anyone who says otherwise.)
Meanwhile, the world championships will continue to be run by the IBA, these two boxers won't be eligible and it won't matter in the slightest whether the IBA have any credible evidence or not - they're the governing body and what they say goes. And lots of people who claim to care deeply about this issue will forget all about it.
Yes, ideally people would get on top of this issue and work out a solution that offers both fairness and safety. Other sports seem to be able to manage it. But it's not going to happen in boxing and there's really no point us all getting distracted from talking abo0ut the Olympics by this issue which has arisen specifically in this one tournament and that neither the IOC nor the IBA has any interest in resolving in a way that helps the actual athletes.
I think @Swindon_Addick summed it up best above. Neither the IBA or the IOC come out of this looking competent - in four years time the IOC will just avoid it altogether unless the IBA comes under some miraculous reform. Which is a massive shame for the female, and male, boxers who are the ones who suffer here.
USA will do what they usually do and come back far stronger and smash everyone in LA. They're not going to take this result easy.
This should have been sorted by the IOC well in advance as Dr Hilton said.