Some other posters have mentioned this but be good to discuss in here. When Jones built this side, what did he see as the main method of scoring goals?
:: We haven't recruited players who can play through the thirds and unpick a defence.
:: We don't have good crossers who can whip in dangerous balls.
:: We don't have pace to play on the counter.
:: We're not regularly winning the ball high up the pitch, and when we do, we don't have the quality to convert.
Some other posters have mentioned this but be good to discuss in here. When Jones built this side, what did he see as the main method of scoring goals?
:: We haven't recruited players who can play through the thirds and unpick a defence.
:: We don't have good crossers who can whip in dangerous balls.
:: We don't have pace to play on the counter.
:: We're not regularly winning the ball high up the pitch, and when we do, we don't have the quality to convert.
I think the original plan was that we would be solid in defence and through the middle, with our wing backs providing width and balls into the box for Adhame (or Chuks, Leaburn etc) to attack or get knock downs for Godden/Kanu.
I think the original plan was that we would be solid in defence and through the middle, with our wing backs providing width and balls into the box for Adhame (or Chuks, Leaburn etc) to attack or get knock downs for Godden/Kanu.
This is definitely the plan but for whatever reason our WB’s don’t sit up high enough and don’t provide attacking threat
I think the original plan was that we would be solid in defence and through the middle, with our wing backs providing width and balls into the box for Adhame (or Chuks, Leaburn etc) to attack or get knock downs for Godden/Kanu.
This is definitely the plan but for whatever reason our WB’s don’t sit up high enough and don’t provide attacking threat
Oh the plan definitely isn’t working. And I don’t really know how much we can change things because we don’t have much versatility in the squad despite having what feels like a large group of 1st team players.
On Tuesday, we'll have the opportunity to watch both our U21s and our 1st team in action....
For the die hards, including Charlton's " 2 Clives" , it's possible to watch both matches live/in person, I assume, if the transport options allow.
For those of us unable to accomplish that remarkable feat, Charlton TV will suffice.
Just thinking how interesting it will be to compare the tactics of both teams after watching the 180+ minutes.
Also, how both managers deal with on field issues that may arise, such as injury replacements or subs to address a specific area of the team that's not working on the day.
And finally, should both levels be set up identically / be using the same formations for continuity purposes ?
Interested to hear your comments after watching both matches.
On Tuesday, we'll have the opportunity to watch both our U21s and our 1st team in action....
For the die hards, including Charlton's " 2 Clives" , it's possible to watch both matches live/in person, I assume, if the transport options allow.
For those of us unable to accomplish that remarkable feat, Charlton TV will suffice.
Just thinking how interesting it will be to compare the tactics of both teams after watching the 180+ minutes.
Also, how both managers deal with on field issues that may arise, such as injury replacements or subs to address a specific area of the team that's not working on the day.
And finally, should both levels be set up identically / be using the same formations for continuity purposes ?
Interested to hear your comments after watching both matches.
Generally in a well run club they'll play in a similar style, won't necessarily be the same shape but there will be an "identity". The issue we have is that our "identity" isn't particularly clear apart from hoofing it long which doesn't seem to be how any youth teams play from what I've seen
Before the game yesterday when the team was announced most people on here said it must mean we won’t be playing hoofball and that was a good plan as there big CB would be comfortable dealing with that style. But nope we did exactly that and could have played all day and not scored. If we could see that why didn’t NJ and his coaches ? Plus in the second half their CB was allowed to turn into a heading machine in our penalty box creating mayhem. All seems a bit off to me
Some other posters have mentioned this but be good to discuss in here. When Jones built this side, what did he see as the main method of scoring goals?
:: We haven't recruited players who can play through the thirds and unpick a defence.
:: We don't have good crossers who can whip in dangerous balls.
:: We don't have pace to play on the counter.
:: We're not regularly winning the ball high up the pitch, and when we do, we don't have the quality to convert.
What was the plan?
I think it was for TC to be the player that stretches defences and gets on the end of knockdowns by Ahadme. Berry the attacking midfielder that gets forward to support the attackers as he has done in patches. Doherty and Alan Campbell box-to-box midfielders that also get into the box when we are on the attack. Small/Edwards and Ramsey supplying the width and getting crosses in. I think that was the plan but it's not working at the moment, not to say that it won't.
A problem is Jones is trying to turn TC into a striker and Doherty and Campbell into offensive midfielders when they have previously been more defensive. A lot of work needed on all 3 - will it work and do we have the time to wait?
Our tactics feel like those of a small team who's aim is to mix it with the big boys and stay up rather than one who's seriously challenging for promotion. Can't imagine the new owners are very happy with what they're seeing unless we've drastically misjudged their level of ambition.
Given the last two losses, I still find myself at a bit of a loss as to what NJ has set us up to do this season.
The identity NJ gave to the team when he came in was to make us harder to beat and break down, and the scrappily contest every game from a strong defensive base. It was points at any cost that mattered, whereas now, with heightened expectation (and reasonably so), it should be more about winning games rather than getting any points we can.
His approach so far this season has not been even cautiously expansive or creative to be on the front foot in games. Every game has, to me, felt like a tight, coin-flip affair - with results hinging from individual moments or mistakes. This absolutely has to be by design, but I cannot fathom whether signings have gone wrong, not fit in as they expected or strategic planning has not simply paid off if the envisaged way. We seem to be good early for 10-20mins of every half, then drop off once we get figured out. Sending on Chuks is our only plan B.
I feel the problems do come from the system we play. We are defensively set with 3 CBs and Coventry, plus our WBs have all felt like they are FBs by trade being wedged into those holes, so we end up with a defensive unit of 6. Our WBs regularly play too deep (because this is, really, what they know) and too defensive, causing us to have a lack of bodies or support going forward. Bypassing the midfield from the back also exacerbates this, because the diagonal/long balls have to be perfectly delivered and controlled, which, at this level, is rare.
Unfortunately, I feel many of these players are not particularly football intelligent and NJ is trying to keep things simple to contest games. We are unable to deal with being pressed in possession, and barring TCampbell really, we don't have many players who enjoy running with the ball. In TC, we have a massive threat, but the system doesn't lend to him. At this stage, I feel we need to revert back to something more simple like 4-4-2, dropping the 3 at the back, to ensure that we carry more of a threat. As we have seen already with Bruce at Blackpool, really simple systems can yield dividends in this league.
I don't think our problems are solved by individual players returning, but I do think a system change is required for success (at least with the players we currently have). Recruitment is a separate issue that I haven't touched on, but in essence, we lack a consistent midfield ahead of Coventry that can create space for others - the new recruits in that area (plus Anderson) don't bring enough, imho. Our WBs don't have the attacking intent they need (and the forward midfield to look to find them) and the system restricts our best natural winger who cannot really play up front, despite best effort.
As I have said elsewhere, I'd love to understand NJs thought process for how we are set up to go win games, because it just all feels a bit too negative, grindy and coin flip. Other teams will just play simple systems and football and take games to other teams, but every game feels, for us, like a cup final. We have made meals out of games that, realistically, the squad should be able to canter against.
I believe in NJ, but he needs to figure out where the goals will come from and fast.
Always enjoy reading your considered thoughts @th0rryy. I also think the WB's sitting too deep is the problem and actually think NJ has identified that too which is why he switched to a formation with wingers at the weekend.
The solution looks simple from the outside, sit your WB's at least 15 yards higher up the pitch but they clearly aren't comfortable with it. One solution could be to slightly tweak the midfield shape from a 6 and two 8's to two 8's and a 10 with your central CB stepping into midfield. Downside to that is you have to play REG (who looked poor v Blackpool) or Z Mitchell (v young, injured?) as the central CB. Berry could play in the 10 for a creative link or Anderson if you want a pressing machine.
I think the personnel individually are mainly up to scratch but we need to find a way to utilise as many of them as possible
Interesting views above and for a 3-5-2 to be successful the wing backs have to get forward down the flanks or otherwise the team does become too defensive and 5-3-2 becomes the formation and any attacking becomes redundant and easy to defend against and with no width CAFC are snookered.
Bolton at home was the only game when we thought maybe this may work but it's just too random a way of playing and we just aren't going to keep clean sheets every week so we need to score goals through some creative spark; not sure where that is ?
A coin flip is a good way to describe our play and even the wins against Wigan, Orient, and Shrewsbury were indeed that. 50/50 matches that could go either way. Reading, Blackpool and Stevenage were dismal affairs and again the lack of quality going forward was our undoing once goals were scored by the opposition.
I think we are locked into 3 at the back, we have recruited a defence of players that have only really been successful playing in a back 3 system, and other than Campbell we don’t have a wide option that’s good enough.
The 3-4-3 we tried last week could work better with Ahadme as the central striker and Leaburn playing off the right in a kind of hybrid RW/ST role that we’ve seen him play before.
For me though I think we should go back to the 3-5-2 and get Berry back in the team as he’s a goal threat and one of the most likely to create something. Go back to being solid defensively and then we can hope that the midfield and attack starts to click with more time and higher quality players like Berry and Leaburn in it
The biggest surprise tactically this season for me has been how much we’ve sat off teams. Was expecting much more of a high intensity press every game from us, but we’ve been quite passive most of the time, especially away from home
Kind of tired of hearing Jones post match talking about being front footed and aggressive. If that's what he wants he's not recruited for that??? He hasn't gone and signed a midfield with any bite that can dominate a game.
I agree that we've backed ourselves into a corner with the formation having to be some form of 3 at the back but it feels like whatever setup ahead of them is totally random from game to game. Even though we're now in October there's no real cohesive plan of " this is our Best XI, let's run with this" - I know there's been injuries but stuff like dropping Mitchell for Blackpool, dropping Kayne last night just feels like a manager that's pulling names out of a hat and hoping something magically clicks.
I think Doc & Campbell as the 8's is a midfield with bite but both were playing poorly. I just don't see how you dominate a game without passing the ball through your midfield.
Think we'll see a higher press against Birmingham or certainly I'd hope so anyway.
I think a lot of what's been said already hits the nail on the head. As poor as the players have been, I think a pure lack of any forward thinking from the way we are set up makes it really difficult for them. We know Watson, Small and Ramsay are capable of getting forward but none of them have been doing it. Nothing gets played through the midfield, leaving a hit and hope from the CBs up to Ahadme who tries his best to do something with it but he's winning a header with no one around him to flick it onto. Ahadme has come in for a lot of criticism but I honestly don't think there's much else he can do, he's been starved of service and only really comes into play chasing innocuous punts up field. Typically, the one game with wingers and crosses into the box he did not play. If we persist with this 3-5-2 we need to be able to play through midfield rather than going long everytime, with the wingbacks pushing forward to bring more men into the middle. Even when we were winning, we were creating nothing. This has to change if anything is going to happen this season
I think Doc & Campbell as the 8's is a midfield with bite but both were playing poorly. I just don't see how you dominate a game without passing the ball through your midfield.
Think we'll see a higher press against Birmingham or certainly I'd hope so anyway.
Yeah Doc spoke about wanting to play further forward but I've not been convinced by him and I know it was one appearance but the less said about Allan Campbell the better so far. There's a really interesting post over on the New Coach thread with a link to a really detailed piece from a Luton fan about the differences between pre Stoke NJ and post Stoke NJ. Does look like in his first spell he favoured a 442 Diamond that played free flowing football with Andy Shinnie as a 10 and then came back to Luton and played what sounds like a very similar setup to how he's got us playing with a very direct 352 but had Elijah Adebayo and Carlton Morris as big physical strikers to play off and Berry making the runs from deep.
I think Doc & Campbell as the 8's is a midfield with bite but both were playing poorly. I just don't see how you dominate a game without passing the ball through your midfield.
Think we'll see a higher press against Birmingham or certainly I'd hope so anyway.
Birmingham will try and play out at all costs, probably the type of team I most fancy our chances against. But I think they might be too good and just play through our press
I think Doc & Campbell as the 8's is a midfield with bite but both were playing poorly. I just don't see how you dominate a game without passing the ball through your midfield.
Think we'll see a higher press against Birmingham or certainly I'd hope so anyway.
Birmingham will try and play out at all costs, probably the type of team I most fancy our chances against. But I think they might be too good and just play through our press
Yes this is my thinking too, they've been caught out a couple of times this season already. I don't have much faith it'll work but it would give us more of a chance that being passive
I think Doc & Campbell as the 8's is a midfield with bite but both were playing poorly. I just don't see how you dominate a game without passing the ball through your midfield.
Think we'll see a higher press against Birmingham or certainly I'd hope so anyway.
Birmingham will try and play out at all costs, probably the type of team I most fancy our chances against. But I think they might be too good and just play through our press
Yes this is my thinking too, they've been caught out a couple of times this season already. I don't have much faith it'll work but it would give us more of a chance that being passive
If we’d played them in the first few games I think we’d have won, but I think they will have gelled enough now to be too good. Even the cup game we played them in our press had them rattled for the first 20mins and then they worked out how to play through it. Can’t see them struggling much with their strongest 11 on and they’ve played together for a couple of months now
I think Doc & Campbell as the 8's is a midfield with bite but both were playing poorly. I just don't see how you dominate a game without passing the ball through your midfield.
Think we'll see a higher press against Birmingham or certainly I'd hope so anyway.
Yeah Doc spoke about wanting to play further forward but I've not been convinced by him and I know it was one appearance but the less said about Allan Campbell the better so far. There's a really interesting post over on the New Coach thread with a link to a really detailed piece from a Luton fan about the differences between pre Stoke NJ and post Stoke NJ. Does look like in his first spell he favoured a 442 Diamond that played free flowing football with Andy Shinnie as a 10 and then came back to Luton and played what sounds like a very similar setup to how he's got us playing with a very direct 352 but had Elijah Adebayo and Carlton Morris as big physical strikers to play off and Berry making the runs from deep.
Wonder if he could revisit that 442D....
I think his high intensity pressing 3-5-2 is more effective in the championship as almost every team plays out from the back. In league 1 we don’t get to use our biggest strength in a lot of games because teams won’t try and play out against us
We need to find another way, not sure if the diamond is the answer as I don’t think we have the attacking full backs for it. That Luton team had Jack Stacey and James Justin, both quickly moving on to the premier league soon after that season. Part of our 3-5-2 troubles are not enough threat from the wing backs and I think we’d have similar issues. Only way I’d see it working is if TC was in the 10 and had the freedom to drift to either flank
Could a flat 4-4-2 be an option? Keeps our 2 strikers and gets Campbell out wide
Mannion Ramsay Mitchell Jones Edwards
Campbell Docherty Coventry Small Leaburn Godden
Even then it’s not ideal as I think Campbell is much better on the left than he is on the right
I think if we continue with the 3-5-2 we might need to play Campbell at wing back, just so there is threat from wide areas. But play it a bit lopsided to reduce Campbells defensive responsibilities, with Potts covering behind him
Think I prefer that final option tbh, can shift into a back 4 easily with Potts moving to LB, so although Campbell is technically wing back he wouldn’t have much defensive responsibility
Godden here basically confirms the game plan is be horrible play against and then you create time to play with the ball. Feels like you need more than that in L1
Comments
:: We haven't recruited players who can play through the thirds and unpick a defence.
:: We don't have good crossers who can whip in dangerous balls.
:: We don't have pace to play on the counter.
:: We're not regularly winning the ball high up the pitch, and when we do, we don't have the quality to convert.
What was the plan?
It's nowhere near enough to create enough chances to win games in the long-term.
For the die hards, including Charlton's " 2 Clives" , it's possible to watch both matches live/in person, I assume, if the transport options allow.
For those of us unable to accomplish that remarkable feat, Charlton TV will suffice.
Just thinking how interesting it will be to compare the tactics of both teams after watching the 180+ minutes.
Also, how both managers deal with on field issues that may arise, such as injury replacements or subs to address a specific area of the team that's not working on the day.
And finally, should both levels be set up identically / be using the same formations for continuity purposes ?
Interested to hear your comments after watching both matches.
It'll make them want to quit playing.
A problem is Jones is trying to turn TC into a striker and Doherty and Campbell into offensive midfielders when they have previously been more defensive. A lot of work needed on all 3 - will it work and do we have the time to wait?
The identity NJ gave to the team when he came in was to make us harder to beat and break down, and the scrappily contest every game from a strong defensive base. It was points at any cost that mattered, whereas now, with heightened expectation (and reasonably so), it should be more about winning games rather than getting any points we can.
His approach so far this season has not been even cautiously expansive or creative to be on the front foot in games. Every game has, to me, felt like a tight, coin-flip affair - with results hinging from individual moments or mistakes. This absolutely has to be by design, but I cannot fathom whether signings have gone wrong, not fit in as they expected or strategic planning has not simply paid off if the envisaged way. We seem to be good early for 10-20mins of every half, then drop off once we get figured out. Sending on Chuks is our only plan B.
I feel the problems do come from the system we play. We are defensively set with 3 CBs and Coventry, plus our WBs have all felt like they are FBs by trade being wedged into those holes, so we end up with a defensive unit of 6. Our WBs regularly play too deep (because this is, really, what they know) and too defensive, causing us to have a lack of bodies or support going forward. Bypassing the midfield from the back also exacerbates this, because the diagonal/long balls have to be perfectly delivered and controlled, which, at this level, is rare.
Unfortunately, I feel many of these players are not particularly football intelligent and NJ is trying to keep things simple to contest games. We are unable to deal with being pressed in possession, and barring TCampbell really, we don't have many players who enjoy running with the ball. In TC, we have a massive threat, but the system doesn't lend to him. At this stage, I feel we need to revert back to something more simple like 4-4-2, dropping the 3 at the back, to ensure that we carry more of a threat. As we have seen already with Bruce at Blackpool, really simple systems can yield dividends in this league.
I don't think our problems are solved by individual players returning, but I do think a system change is required for success (at least with the players we currently have). Recruitment is a separate issue that I haven't touched on, but in essence, we lack a consistent midfield ahead of Coventry that can create space for others - the new recruits in that area (plus Anderson) don't bring enough, imho. Our WBs don't have the attacking intent they need (and the forward midfield to look to find them) and the system restricts our best natural winger who cannot really play up front, despite best effort.
As I have said elsewhere, I'd love to understand NJs thought process for how we are set up to go win games, because it just all feels a bit too negative, grindy and coin flip. Other teams will just play simple systems and football and take games to other teams, but every game feels, for us, like a cup final. We have made meals out of games that, realistically, the squad should be able to canter against.
I believe in NJ, but he needs to figure out where the goals will come from and fast.
The solution looks simple from the outside, sit your WB's at least 15 yards higher up the pitch but they clearly aren't comfortable with it. One solution could be to slightly tweak the midfield shape from a 6 and two 8's to two 8's and a 10 with your central CB stepping into midfield. Downside to that is you have to play REG (who looked poor v Blackpool) or Z Mitchell (v young, injured?) as the central CB. Berry could play in the 10 for a creative link or Anderson if you want a pressing machine.
I think the personnel individually are mainly up to scratch but we need to find a way to utilise as many of them as possible
Bolton at home was the only game when we thought maybe this may work but it's just too random a way of playing and we just aren't going to keep clean sheets every week so we need to score goals through some creative spark; not sure where that is ?
A coin flip is a good way to describe our play and even the wins against Wigan, Orient, and Shrewsbury were indeed that. 50/50 matches that could go either way.
Reading, Blackpool and Stevenage were dismal affairs and again the lack of quality going forward was our undoing once goals were scored by the opposition.
I agree that we've backed ourselves into a corner with the formation having to be some form of 3 at the back but it feels like whatever setup ahead of them is totally random from game to game. Even though we're now in October there's no real cohesive plan of " this is our Best XI, let's run with this" - I know there's been injuries but stuff like dropping Mitchell for Blackpool, dropping Kayne last night just feels like a manager that's pulling names out of a hat and hoping something magically clicks.
Think we'll see a higher press against Birmingham or certainly I'd hope so anyway.
Ahadme has come in for a lot of criticism but I honestly don't think there's much else he can do, he's been starved of service and only really comes into play chasing innocuous punts up field. Typically, the one game with wingers and crosses into the box he did not play.
If we persist with this 3-5-2 we need to be able to play through midfield rather than going long everytime, with the wingbacks pushing forward to bring more men into the middle.
Even when we were winning, we were creating nothing. This has to change if anything is going to happen this season
Yeah Doc spoke about wanting to play further forward but I've not been convinced by him and I know it was one appearance but the less said about Allan Campbell the better so far. There's a really interesting post over on the New Coach thread with a link to a really detailed piece from a Luton fan about the differences between pre Stoke NJ and post Stoke NJ. Does look like in his first spell he favoured a 442 Diamond that played free flowing football with Andy Shinnie as a 10 and then came back to Luton and played what sounds like a very similar setup to how he's got us playing with a very direct 352 but had Elijah Adebayo and Carlton Morris as big physical strikers to play off and Berry making the runs from deep.
Wonder if he could revisit that 442D....
answer … no, there is no F in tactics
We need to find another way, not sure if the diamond is the answer as I don’t think we have the attacking full backs for it. That Luton team had Jack Stacey and James Justin, both quickly moving on to the premier league soon after that season. Part of our 3-5-2 troubles are not enough threat from the wing backs and I think we’d have similar issues. Only way I’d see it working is if TC was in the 10 and had the freedom to drift to either flank
Mannion
Ramsay Mitchell Jones Edwards
Coventry
Docherty Campbell
Campbell
Leaburn Godden
Could a flat 4-4-2 be an option? Keeps our 2 strikers and gets Campbell out wide
Ramsay Mitchell Jones Edwards
Leaburn Godden
Even then it’s not ideal as I think Campbell is much better on the left than he is on the right
I think if we continue with the 3-5-2 we might need to play Campbell at wing back, just so there is threat from wide areas. But play it a bit lopsided to reduce Campbells defensive responsibilities, with Potts covering behind him
Mannion
Mitchell Jones Potts
Ramsay Coventry
Docherty Berry Campbell
Leaburn Godden
Think I prefer that final option tbh, can shift into a back 4 easily with Potts moving to LB, so although Campbell is technically wing back he wouldn’t have much defensive responsibility
https://x.com/cafcofficial/status/1841411551552569792?s=46&t=MojDVxh_AjG5taAWPQn6Tw