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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
Comments
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arny23394 said:
McNamara is many things, a RWB is not one of them.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.
It was a perfectly good point being made, take the 'w' out and the posters point still remains.0 -
FirenzeAddick said:fenaddick said:I think the main thing is he's tried to evolve too quickly and that in turn raised expectations. Oxford showed how hard the second season in a division is and Pompey didn't do much better either. Both sides finished lower than their first season in the division. Of the teams promoted the season before us, only Derby improved in the second season and that success currently looks like it was built on sand. If we hadn't tried to evolve as much then our recruitment would have focused on a back 5 and there's a chance we might have some more points, equally we might have fewer. I get why he wanted to evolve and I suspect a word was had from above but I think it was too soon. I'd take another season of pure ugly Jonesball just to keep us in the division.I agree with this. I think you can add that without a functioning SMT above him he is effectively running the whole show. Would he need to have been so involved in every club function and sleeping at Sparrows Lane if they had a CEO in place and a team around them? Results and fitness levels were far greater with Will Abbott in the building, who again was not replaced....No one person is realistically capable of that over the long term - and I hope that any decisions the board are considering in relation to his future take this into accountI'm not sure he does run the whole show and not having a CEO shouldn't impact managing/coaching the first team. Academy, medical, conditioning, recruitment and other football related activities are the responsibility of JR.The CEO role is to manage and coordinate all off-field operations and to provide strategic commercial leadership - commercial partnerships, marketing, finance, ticketing, communications, fan engagement, F&B and hospitality, and so on - and to be the main conduit to the owners. I'm not saying we don't need a CEO - we do as the off-field operation is a shit show, but the person least affected on workload by not having one should be the first team manager.
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well, i assume that you're saying that in a disparaging/ similar way to "oliver skipp is a not a centre midfielder", because Macnamara has played a lot of championship football as a RWB.arny23394 said:
McNamara is many things, a RWB is not one of them.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.0 -
I'm still leaning towards keeping Jones rather than making a change now
The football is shite, but then it has been for the last 2 years but it got us promoted and kept us up last year
The issue for me is mainly who we'd replace him with....Jones is a scrapper who will have us battling this year and we still aren't quite in desperation mode yet given we have a little gap between relegation places. Hiring some League One manager or someone we've never heard of doesn't really make me confident it'll get any better
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I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.1 -
This is where I don’t see the manager being the problem. Maybe he is a problem too, but we have far bigger problems and no manager is going to succeed without the right setup in place at the club.FirenzeAddick said:fenaddick said:I think the main thing is he's tried to evolve too quickly and that in turn raised expectations. Oxford showed how hard the second season in a division is and Pompey didn't do much better either. Both sides finished lower than their first season in the division. Of the teams promoted the season before us, only Derby improved in the second season and that success currently looks like it was built on sand. If we hadn't tried to evolve as much then our recruitment would have focused on a back 5 and there's a chance we might have some more points, equally we might have fewer. I get why he wanted to evolve and I suspect a word was had from above but I think it was too soon. I'd take another season of pure ugly Jonesball just to keep us in the division.I agree with this. I think you can add that without a functioning SMT above him he is effectively running the whole show. Would he need to have been so involved in every club function and sleeping at Sparrows Lane if they had a CEO in place and a team around them? Results and fitness levels were far greater with Will Abbott in the building, who again was not replaced....No one person is realistically capable of that over the long term - and I hope that any decisions the board are considering in relation to his future take this into accountStick a new manager in and you might get a bounce of a few results. But after a month or so all the same problems we have with the squad and behind the scenes will be back again3 -
FirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
That is the most underwhelming group of potential managers I've ever read. Half of them are failing at League One level!
Read this now a couple of times but why the hell are people still pining for JJ to come back? Have we romanticised how bang average we were under him. I know he was working under constraints but the football was equally as crap as it is now and he's not exactly been ripping it up since4 -
Second half of last season we played 352, 451 and 3421 regularly. Often we played all of them in one game, particularly in the second half of the season. Actually we performed better at the start of the season when he didn't mix and match formations, that could be correlation rather than causation. This season alone we have played in a 4231, a 352, a 3421/343 and a 433.paulsturgess said:
I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.
We've also (poorly) attempted to be a team that plays possession football, to be a counter attacking team, to play directly into a big man's head, to play primarily into the channels, to have our wingbacks press high, to invert our LWB, to invert our RB.
To say he's not being flexible is to ignore the evidence in front of your eyes.4 -
I think you're ignoring or not wanting to see the evidence in front of your eyes, so we'll have to agree to disagree there FA!fenaddick said:
Second half of last season we played 352, 451 and 3421 regularly. Often we played all of them in one game, particularly in the second half of the season. Actually we performed better at the start of the season when he didn't mix and match formations, that could be correlation rather than causation. This season alone we have played in a 4231, a 352, a 3421/343 and a 433.paulsturgess said:
I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.
We've also (poorly) attempted to be a team that plays possession football, to be a counter attacking team, to play directly into a big man's head, to play primarily into the channels, to have our wingbacks press high, to invert our LWB, to invert our RB.
To say he's not being flexible is to ignore the evidence in front of your eyes.3 -
I think we're just seeing different things, I agree the output is poor and the football is fairly turgid but I do see attempts to change it. But yes, agree we won't get on the same page!paulsturgess said:
I think you're ignoring or not wanting to see the evidence in front of your eyes, so we'll have to agree to disagree there FA!fenaddick said:
Second half of last season we played 352, 451 and 3421 regularly. Often we played all of them in one game, particularly in the second half of the season. Actually we performed better at the start of the season when he didn't mix and match formations, that could be correlation rather than causation. This season alone we have played in a 4231, a 352, a 3421/343 and a 433.paulsturgess said:
I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.
We've also (poorly) attempted to be a team that plays possession football, to be a counter attacking team, to play directly into a big man's head, to play primarily into the channels, to have our wingbacks press high, to invert our LWB, to invert our RB.
To say he's not being flexible is to ignore the evidence in front of your eyes.0 -
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The football is shite but we are competing in a field well above our level.
Of the five midfielders starting Saturday only one had a fee paid for him JRC. The others were free transfers, the back ups are free transfers/loans NC, OS, TO.
You can only shop in the bargain basement for so long and expect results when others are investing superior sums.
Do I feel NJ keeps us up probably at this time, do I enjoy what is served up no, will another serve up better and keep us up who knows.
I'm in the NJ stays for the moment but can't help but feel him and us have been given a raw deal.10 -
But we did this all the time in league 1. Lots of changes he made that forced late winners for uspaulsturgess said:
I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.
It’s a lot harder to do that when your players and your subs are worse than your opponents, which is the case for Jones nearly every game. In league 1 when he had a better squad for the level we did these things, now we’re in the championship with a poor squad we don’t do them
You say the manager is incapable of it, but we did it plenty in league 1. I'd say our squad is incapable of doing it. Norwich bring on Kenny McLean when they want more control in midfield. We bring on a teenager from the academy
Jones doesn't need to become more flexible imo. In all of our best periods under him we've had pretty much the same starting 11 every game, and the same subs coming on every game depending on game state. At the moment he is trying to find the right combination so that he can stick to it, we've seen him try that before and land on something. He desperately needs to land on something soon that works, and stick with it
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I don't for one second think we should sack Jones and bring in Jackson. But if we did sack Jones we should be looking for a manager that can over-achieve with a poor squad. Jackson is currently doing one of the best jobs in the EFL at over-achieving with a poor squad and budget. Wimbledon had a poor budget in league 2 and got promoted, they have the lowest budget in league 1 and so far are staying upSE7_Red said:FirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
That is the most underwhelming group of potential managers I've ever read. Half of them are failing at League One level!
Read this now a couple of times but why the hell are people still pining for JJ to come back? Have we romanticised how bang average we were under him. I know he was working under constraints but the football was equally as crap as it is now and he's not exactly been ripping it up since
This is the problem though. If we sack Jones I think it's almost certain we appoint a worse manager. They might get a few results in the short term with a new manager bounce, but long term will we be better off with a new manager?1 -
I can give you a different list, but ultimately that’s the market we are shopping in. Each of those managers has has success and failure in their careers - no manager we get in will be world beating.SE7_Red said:FirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
That is the most underwhelming group of potential managers I've ever read. Half of them are failing at League One level!
Read this now a couple of times but why the hell are people still pining for JJ to come back? Have we romanticised how bang average we were under him. I know he was working under constraints but the football was equally as crap as it is now and he's not exactly been ripping it up sinceJJ has done an excellent job over the past 2.5yrs and overachieved considerably. That’s why he would remain in the conversation, not some nostalgia trip.1 -
He appears to be making things difficult for himself, but he's surely done enough to deserve a chance to try and keep us up for a second season running. I can't see how sacking him before the end of the season is going to help unless perhaps we are suddenly purchased by new owners before the January transfer window opens, and they are desperate to splash a lot of cash and have a new manager in mind.3
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NabySarr said:
But we did this all the time in league 1. Lots of changes he made that forced late winners for uspaulsturgess said:
I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.
It’s a lot harder to do that when your players and your subs are worse than your opponents, which is the case for Jones nearly every game. In league 1 when he had a better squad for the level we did these things, now we’re in the championship with a poor squad we don’t do them
You say the manager is incapable of it, but we did it plenty in league 1. I'd say our squad is incapable of doing it. Norwich bring on Kenny McLean when they want more control in midfield. We bring on a teenager from the academy
Jones doesn't need to become more flexible imo. In all of our best periods under him we've had pretty much the same starting 11 every game, and the same subs coming on every game depending on game state. At the moment he is trying to find the right combination so that he can stick to it, we've seen him try that before and land on something. He desperately needs to land on something soon that works, and stick with it
I think this 'tactical flexibility' debate has become a bit confused.
Like all managers, Jones will make changes. That's obvious.
I think what people are highlighting is that Jones defaults to his preferred approach too readily. And he does this both in games and in general. This is why we have seen a succession of ex-Luton players since Jones has been in charge. It worked before, so it will work again, won't it?
He unfailingly tries to protect a one-goal lead, rather than trying to get a second goal.
His successes are built on clean sheets. This is why we will go to Middlesbrough at the weekend looking for a goalless draw. If the required players are fit, you'll see a line-up that reflects that. I doubt that we will cross the halfway line.
Formations are one thing. But Jones is inflexible in what he believes will bring success.
It's a rigid philosophy ... we should be front-footed, difficult to beat, the best version of ourselves ... and stuff.
And that only gets you so far.3 -
If we went to Middlesbrough and tried to do anything else we would get absolutely thrashed. The squad we have is not capable of more than that. Bolton tried it last week and look what happenedDave Rudd said:NabySarr said:
But we did this all the time in league 1. Lots of changes he made that forced late winners for uspaulsturgess said:
I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.
It’s a lot harder to do that when your players and your subs are worse than your opponents, which is the case for Jones nearly every game. In league 1 when he had a better squad for the level we did these things, now we’re in the championship with a poor squad we don’t do them
You say the manager is incapable of it, but we did it plenty in league 1. I'd say our squad is incapable of doing it. Norwich bring on Kenny McLean when they want more control in midfield. We bring on a teenager from the academy
Jones doesn't need to become more flexible imo. In all of our best periods under him we've had pretty much the same starting 11 every game, and the same subs coming on every game depending on game state. At the moment he is trying to find the right combination so that he can stick to it, we've seen him try that before and land on something. He desperately needs to land on something soon that works, and stick with it
I think this 'tactical flexibility' debate has become a bit confused.
Like all managers, Jones will make changes. That's obvious.
I think what people are highlighting is that Jones defaults to his preferred approach too readily. And he does this both in games and in general. This is why we have seen a succession of ex-Luton players since Jones has been in charge. It worked before, so it will work again, won't it?
He unfailingly tries to protect a one-goal lead, rather than trying to get a second goal.
His successes are built on clean sheets. This is why we will go to Middlesbrough at the weekend looking for a goalless draw. If the required players are fit, you'll see a line-up that reflects that. I doubt that we will cross the halfway line.
Formations are one thing. But Jones is inflexible in what he believes will bring success.
It's a rigid philosophy ... we should be front-footed, difficult to beat, the best version of ourselves ... and stuff.
And that only gets you so far.3 -
I don't think we did do it even in L1. In league 1 on our promotion surge it was based on a very well drilled side that hardly conceded and we got through match after match in that way grafting our way through, other than the 2 x corner smash and grab at Orient, I don't think we made any major tactical switches to transform a game or to approach different opponents in particularly different ways.NabySarr said:
But we did this all the time in league 1. Lots of changes he made that forced late winners for uspaulsturgess said:
I think you're clutching at straws there. Saying somebody is incredibly tactically inflexible does not mean they never make a single change; the fact we started one match with a slightly higher pressing system is not evidence of a tactically flexible manager.fenaddick said:
I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.“We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.
“It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."
People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.
We have started many matches well this season but then it's fallen apart and Jones rarely seems able to alter the tide / wrestle control of a match back. Last season we pretty much exclusively, I think, played the 532 and I think never managed to come from behind to win, and again, I can't really think of a match where we were on the backfoot and managed to wrestle control of the game, something which happens frequently to us.
I just don't think it's even a discussion point that he is very rigid tactically.
It’s a lot harder to do that when your players and your subs are worse than your opponents, which is the case for Jones nearly every game. In league 1 when he had a better squad for the level we did these things, now we’re in the championship with a poor squad we don’t do them
You say the manager is incapable of it, but we did it plenty in league 1. I'd say our squad is incapable of doing it. Norwich bring on Kenny McLean when they want more control in midfield. We bring on a teenager from the academy
Jones doesn't need to become more flexible imo. In all of our best periods under him we've had pretty much the same starting 11 every game, and the same subs coming on every game depending on game state. At the moment he is trying to find the right combination so that he can stick to it, we've seen him try that before and land on something. He desperately needs to land on something soon that works, and stick with it
Posh away in the promotion season got ahead of us and we didn't have a clue how to come back into it.
Conversely there have been several occasions where even other Championship sides including weaker ones have been able to out think us / or change patterns of games against us and we/Jones are left looking confused and at a loss what to do.
I agree with the concerns about who better we will get in; but I do not think Jones' is the level we ideally need either. If we persist with him, frankly I think we need to just go back to full basics, shut up shop, get the defence well drilled and try and burgle our way to enough points. I wouldn't back it, and I don't think it's sustainable; but I think that is the only way of managing / coaching that Jones' is actually capable of.1 -
If they did get someone from abroad, they would probably be Kenyan and disappear after a few games!!😬NabySarr said:
Do you really have any faith in our footballing decision makers to find a manager abroad that’s good? Absolutely no chance they’d even try but if they did it would probably be a disasterking addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!0 -
Unless something changes we're going down on current form. But we've improved every year under Jones, according to the league table. Until that changes, I'd favour depressingly slow predictable growth over a gamble. The midfield signings have been a disaster and are costing us, but that's the budget we have to work with. I think Jones is more likely to get results out of this lot than the others we've had.2
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Some of the names being batted around as a replacement for Jones are crazy, we have no budget - I agree we are set to go down but I don't think the managers we could realistically get will do any better with the squad we have, it'll be even worse with a new manager who has no idea of his squad.
A lot of this has to be pointed towards the owners trying to do things on a budget that was just never going to work.2 -
SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
This season in 6 home games Swansea have had 109,000 attending around 18,100 per game not to dissimilar to ourselves so how do they pay for all these players?2 -
Not saying it's you personally saying this but JJ is probably doing an identical job at Wimbledon to what Jones is doing here -> Punching above their weight and just about staying out of the relegation zone. I don't get why you'd swap someone doing that in League One for someone doing that in the Champ.NabySarr said:
I don't for one second think we should sack Jones and bring in Jackson. But if we did sack Jones we should be looking for a manager that can over-achieve with a poor squad. Jackson is currently doing one of the best jobs in the EFL at over-achieving with a poor squad and budget. Wimbledon had a poor budget in league 2 and got promoted, they have the lowest budget in league 1 and so far are staying upSE7_Red said:FirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
That is the most underwhelming group of potential managers I've ever read. Half of them are failing at League One level!
Read this now a couple of times but why the hell are people still pining for JJ to come back? Have we romanticised how bang average we were under him. I know he was working under constraints but the football was equally as crap as it is now and he's not exactly been ripping it up since
This is the problem though. If we sack Jones I think it's almost certain we appoint a worse manager. They might get a few results in the short term with a new manager bounce, but long term will we be better off with a new manager?
I don't watch Wimbledon I must admit but unless he's seriously changed he's coaching style I can't imagine it's that much fun to watch either
And I agree what you've said in bold. I don't enjoy the football we play and I want more but NJ at the moment is the best chance I can see in us staying up unless someone very unexpected pops up2 -
He’s not good going forward, if we are playing with wingbacks, we need someone who offers a threat down the right - he doesn’t offer that at all.paulsturgess said:
well, i assume that you're saying that in a disparaging/ similar way to "oliver skipp is a not a centre midfielder", because Macnamara has played a lot of championship football as a RWB.arny23394 said:
McNamara is many things, a RWB is not one of them.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.2 -
Urgh. Football League World - posts are either a load of old shit, nicked from somewhere else or a load of old shit nicked from somewhere else. I'd give more credence to something in the Sunday Sport.king addick said:5 -
I recall when Luton topped League ! a few years back and they weren't defensive.1
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From that article about Parker.
'One that shouldn’t be awkward, like Hernandez, and a much more sensible fit on paper would be that of former Charlton midfielder and now three-time Premier League promotion-winning coach Scott Parker'.
They obviously aren't aware of how he left us and how he is disliked by many fans on here.5 -
Is redemption for Parker possible? , big if but if he did come and prove successful by our standards, could he become accepted .1
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I m o Luton's success during their 'Jones era' was as much if not more down to Mick Harford's coaching and leadership as it was down to Nathan JMuttleyCAFC said:I recall when Luton topped League ! a few years back and they weren't defensive.0 -
I agree with that entirely. But we played the entirety of last season on this basis with Bree and then Clarke.arny23394 said:
He’s not good going forward, if we are playing with wingbacks, we need someone who offers a threat down the right - he doesn’t offer that at all.paulsturgess said:
well, i assume that you're saying that in a disparaging/ similar way to "oliver skipp is a not a centre midfielder", because Macnamara has played a lot of championship football as a RWB.arny23394 said:
McNamara is many things, a RWB is not one of them.paulsturgess said:
This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.NabySarr said:
What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from workingFirenzeAddick said:SouthLincsAddick said:king addick said:
Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters.Braziliance said:I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time.
The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager.
Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln!This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind
macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre midOne of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that.0
