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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

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Comments

  • NabySarr
    NabySarr Posts: 6,853
    bobmunro said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    bobmunro said:
    Fanny Fanackapan said:
    Dave Rudd ! Well said, young man ! 

    How about contacting Weegie at CAST and ask for those points to be put to whoever is likely to respond to them, whether it's a positive reply or not ? 

    THOSE are the questions we all need answered and soon ! But I'm not holding my breath...

    The natives are becoming more restless day by day and rightly so. 

    Time to roll out Big JR to face the fans once again with the mission of trying to appease the faithful with that "slick" manner he possesses ? 

    Failing that, as a Lifer suggested a few days ago, let's resurrect the infamous LIAR banner B)

    The SLT at the club are well aware of what is posted on here - the same old questions will get the same old answers. Do you expect them to say anyhing different like "yes, we are crap but we haven't got a pot to piss in and the owners don't want to spend any more money than they absolutely have to, and they want out"?

    The natives are not becoming more restless and I don't believe there is any motivation to move to protest mode - they are talking with their feet. It's apathy that is winning the day, not revolution.

    Bob,

    The speculative answer that you have provided does not reflect the question I posed.  You are right ... no-one expects the SLT to say anything like that.

    I'll re-iterate what I'm asking:

    1) What are we aiming for?  Premier League?  Has that been articulated by Carter and his colleagues?  Because our owners need to know that won't happen with the current approach.

    2) What are this season's KPIs?  And how are we doing against them?

    3) Have the owners realised yet that mid-table Championship security comes at a significant price ... although that will be dwarfed by any attempts to go one better.


    We are on an Andy Burnham £2 bus ride.  It doesn't go the The Seychelles or Miami.  It stops at Blackpool and Grimsby.

    I believe GC has provided an answer to the second question, Dave - continuous improvement a step at a time with this season's League performance to achieve the third quartile i.e. 13th to 18th.

    The answer to the first question has got to be 'eventually' otherwise the assumed investment model, that has got to be based on a return on investment, is only possible in the Premier League. I'm not sure GC has articulated that overtly but I'm confident the owners have realised that things need to change if there's more than a hope in hell of achieving that.

    Your third question - I think it's pretty certain that the answer to that will be yes - hence looking for further investment or an out.
    Was this answer given before this summer where supposedly a key investment decided he wants out and our budget wasn’t good enough. To me we definitely haven’t stepped on into the 3rd quartile and haven’t shown the ambition to do so 
  • cabbles
    cabbles Posts: 15,953
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 
    Swansea have peddled that possession tiki taka  type play for years before Matos got there, and built their team around it.  We absolutely haven’t and as much as a progressive ball playing manager is appealing, whoever takes over is inheriting a largely agricultural group of footballers who don’t have the capability to move the ball.  Lincoln have had a steady start, but are in a very similar boat to us last year, riding the promotion wave.  Almost a year to the day, we’d won 3-0 at Ipswich and were buzzing.  We’re very much the in between of Swansea and Lincoln, and need to find our version of what keeps us up this season.  It won’t be emulating Swansea and it won’t be following Lincoln’s path

    a lot has been said about shifting from 3-5-2 to 4-2-3-1 and the failure it’s been.  Whilst I don’t disagree based on results, I do respect Jones for trying to change it up this year and evolve.  For me it goes back to owners who have pulled the plug, and now we’re exposed to some desperate stuff to try and get things back on track 
  • carly burn
    carly burn Posts: 20,100
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
     This
  • Dave Rudd
    Dave Rudd Posts: 3,143
    bobmunro said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    bobmunro said:
    Fanny Fanackapan said:
    Dave Rudd ! Well said, young man ! 

    How about contacting Weegie at CAST and ask for those points to be put to whoever is likely to respond to them, whether it's a positive reply or not ? 

    THOSE are the questions we all need answered and soon ! But I'm not holding my breath...

    The natives are becoming more restless day by day and rightly so. 

    Time to roll out Big JR to face the fans once again with the mission of trying to appease the faithful with that "slick" manner he possesses ? 

    Failing that, as a Lifer suggested a few days ago, let's resurrect the infamous LIAR banner B)

    The SLT at the club are well aware of what is posted on here - the same old questions will get the same old answers. Do you expect them to say anyhing different like "yes, we are crap but we haven't got a pot to piss in and the owners don't want to spend any more money than they absolutely have to, and they want out"?

    The natives are not becoming more restless and I don't believe there is any motivation to move to protest mode - they are talking with their feet. It's apathy that is winning the day, not revolution.

    Bob,

    The speculative answer that you have provided does not reflect the question I posed.  You are right ... no-one expects the SLT to say anything like that.

    I'll re-iterate what I'm asking:

    1) What are we aiming for?  Premier League?  Has that been articulated by Carter and his colleagues?  Because our owners need to know that won't happen with the current approach.

    2) What are this season's KPIs?  And how are we doing against them?

    3) Have the owners realised yet that mid-table Championship security comes at a significant price ... although that will be dwarfed by any attempts to go one better.


    We are on an Andy Burnham £2 bus ride.  It doesn't go the The Seychelles or Miami.  It stops at Blackpool and Grimsby.

    I believe GC has provided an answer to the second question, Dave - continuous improvement a step at a time with this season's League performance to achieve the third quartile i.e. 13th to 18th.

    The answer to the first question has got to be 'eventually' otherwise the assumed investment model, that has got to be based on a return on investment, is only possible in the Premier League. I'm not sure GC has articulated that overtly but I'm confident the owners have realised that things need to change if there's more than a hope in hell of achieving that.

    Your third question - I think it's pretty certain that the answer to that will be yes - hence looking for further investment or an out.

    I'm not sure that's the kind of KPI that Carter has referred to previously.  I make that more of an objective (short-term maybe).

    Last season Carter talked about a 'points per game' KPI.  As we flirted with relegation towards the end of last season, I recall that he indicated on occasions that we were ahead of the KPI, although not by much.

    I assume that there is an equivalent measure this season which reflects our 'third quartile' objective.  Last season the final points range for 13th to 18th place was 60 down to 55.  You'd assume a KPI of something like 1.25 points per game in order to achieve that.

    We're currently on 1.17.

    Doubtless there will be other KPIs, some or many of which will be financial.  It would be nice if these were shared publicly at the outset rather than just alluded to when it suits.
  • Ormiston_Addick
    Ormiston_Addick Posts: 8,843
    I have huge admiration for Nathan Jones and will always be grateful for what he has done for our club, but that doesn't mean he can't be criticised.

    I know our budget is tight but his success rate on signings is nowhere near good enough, and that is a huge problem.

    We spent big money on Apter and Olaofe and neither was given a proper chance before being turfed out, moreover Jones seems to buy players that DO NOT fit into his system, Apter and Olaofe being two and Grant being another.

    When you add in the disastrous Kenyan duo, the awful Kaminski, Knibbs barely getting a game and Carey being sent to Siberia then questions have to be asked.

    Kelman has done OK, despite very limited service, and Koumetio is excellent, but there have been too many players that he has brought in that have not worked at all.
  • SouthLincsAddick
    SouthLincsAddick Posts: 872
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 

    This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.

  • FirenzeAddick
    FirenzeAddick Posts: 141
    SouthLincsAddick said:
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 

    This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.


    I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.

    He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.

    A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.

    Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.

    There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
  • king addick
    king addick Posts: 4,236
    The people that I have replied to me, I hear it 👍 and I want Jones to do well, really I do.

    It just getting worse and a decision has to be made soon. 

    I just feel that they can do better and we had better results with a lesser squad last year so with that, why are we struggling so badly? Players aren't playing well but we can't try to evolve now. 
  • king addick
    king addick Posts: 4,236
    https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/six-nathan-jones-replacements-charlton-athletic-could-line-up/

    Just see it.

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  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 24,032
    king addick said:
    https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/six-nathan-jones-replacements-charlton-athletic-could-line-up/

    Just see it.
    Yes, let's bring in Heckingbottom, sacked because he was bottom of the division within the last month or Scott Parker which "shouldn’t be awkward". It's FLW so it's to be expected but that's a truly laughable article
  • LargeAddick
    LargeAddick Posts: 34,744
    Only sensible suggestion is Challinor.
  • MarcusH26
    MarcusH26 Posts: 11,257
    fenaddick said:
    king addick said:
    https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/six-nathan-jones-replacements-charlton-athletic-could-line-up/

    Just see it.
    Yes, let's bring in Heckingbottom, sacked because he was bottom of the division within the last month or Scott Parker which "shouldn’t be awkward". It's FLW so it's to be expected but that's a truly laughable article
    No one on that article is realistic at all. Hilariously bad even by FLW standards. Challinor will be at Sheffield Wednesday by the end of the week , Cooper,Parker, Corberan will all have way more interesting options than us. Heckingbottom is a midtable League 1 manager and I don't know where they've pulled Pablo Hernandez from as an idea 😅😅
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 24,032
    LargeAddick said:
    Only sensible suggestion is Challinor.
    He'll be off to Sheffield Wednesday I think
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 24,032
    I've just seen someone serious suggest Steve Brown, some people have lost their minds
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 24,763
    fenaddick said:
    I've just seen someone serious suggest Steve Brown, some people have lost their minds
    Genuinely would rather give it oohaah, so long as he promised to give every press conference in his usual posting style 
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 24,763
    Including the percentages 
  • NabySarr
    NabySarr Posts: 6,853
    FirenzeAddick said:
    SouthLincsAddick said:
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 

    This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.


    I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.

    He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.

    A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.

    Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.

    There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
    What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from working 
  • NabySarr
    NabySarr Posts: 6,853
    MarcusH26 said:
    fenaddick said:
    king addick said:
    https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/six-nathan-jones-replacements-charlton-athletic-could-line-up/

    Just see it.
    Yes, let's bring in Heckingbottom, sacked because he was bottom of the division within the last month or Scott Parker which "shouldn’t be awkward". It's FLW so it's to be expected but that's a truly laughable article
    No one on that article is realistic at all. Hilariously bad even by FLW standards. Challinor will be at Sheffield Wednesday by the end of the week , Cooper,Parker, Corberan will all have way more interesting options than us. Heckingbottom is a midtable League 1 manager and I don't know where they've pulled Pablo Hernandez from as an idea 😅😅
    I refuse to click that link but Corberan has made me laugh. Just been managing one of the biggest clubs in Spain ffs 
  • king addick
    king addick Posts: 4,236
    Should add I'm not endorsing the article 😂 only that's it been posted haha 

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  • I-SAW-POUSO-PLAY
    I-SAW-POUSO-PLAY Posts: 4,659
    edited October 26
    I don’t like changing managers as it’s hardly worked for us but let’s be honest we have been absolute garbage since last November. Something needs to happen just don’t know what .
  • J BLOCK
    J BLOCK Posts: 8,612
    olster said:
    Not quite sure i'm in the Jones out camp yet, he's done huge amounts for this club and deserves more time.

    But one of the saddest things with how this season is going is our inability to use it as a way of developing the next generation of our talent. This is no way for players like Mbick and Mwamba to learn their trade; both of who i was hugely excited about before the season started. Am just pleased that Fullah and Gough are elsewhere right now.
    Simply put, the Championship level is too good for them. If we were in League One I have no doubt they'd be playing. You can even make the case that Leaburn isn't good enough for the Champ. It's an unforgiving league and we are struggling because we don't have a squad capable of being at the level. 
  • FirenzeAddick
    FirenzeAddick Posts: 141
    NabySarr said:
    FirenzeAddick said:
    SouthLincsAddick said:
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 

    This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.


    I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.

    He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.

    A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.

    Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.

    There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
    What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from working 

    That would be for that coach to work out, having watched the group training and speaking to them each individually and having a different coaching team around them. He wouldn't have loyalty or preference to any of the current squad.

    Also, nothing may need to change in terms of formation. They may see what is not working with the current system and tweak/coach those changes.

    We don't see NJ day to day, the players may have tired of the same message and style. Just a new approach could make the difference.

    There are no guarantees that happens, but over the last 46 Championship games we have been pretty consistently dreadful. There is a world where a change can have that positive effect.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 23,368
    edited October 26
    The best we can hope for this season is to stay up but that will be a tough ask. The standard seems to be higher in the Championship this season and we've looked dreadful in the last few matches.

    I'm not expecting attractive football under NJ but he seems to be clutching at straws recently. Random team selections are a bit worrying.

    We have a pretty limited squad and the luck we had last season seems to have run out. Playing with such limited possession relies on luck with the oppo not taking chances and solid defending.

    We got battered frequently last season and managed to get results but our tactics are just too limited for this level. Defensively we don't look as solid and most teams just play through us.

    I'd love NJ to turn things around but I don't see how. No oppo team will fear playing such a passive side. Once Norwich realised how bad we were on Saturday the fear went.

    I'm not sure how bad our squad is but the team has zero confidence at present. 
  • paulsturgess
    paulsturgess Posts: 4,400
    NabySarr said:
    FirenzeAddick said:
    SouthLincsAddick said:
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 

    This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.


    I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.

    He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.

    A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.

    Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.

    There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
    What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from working 
    This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.

    suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind

    macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre mid 

    One of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that. 
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 24,032
    I think the main thing is he's tried to evolve too quickly and that in turn raised expectations. Oxford showed how hard the second season in a division is and Pompey didn't do much better either. Both sides finished lower than their first season in the division. Of the teams promoted the season before us, only Derby improved in the second season and that success currently looks like it was built on sand. If we hadn't tried to evolve as much then our recruitment would have focused on a back 5 and there's a chance we might have some more points, equally we might have fewer. I get why he wanted to evolve and I suspect a word was had from above but I think it was too soon. I'd take another season of pure ugly Jonesball just to keep us in the division.
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 24,032
    edited October 26
    paulsturgess said:
    NabySarr said:
    FirenzeAddick said:
    SouthLincsAddick said:
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 

    This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.


    I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.

    He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.

    A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.

    Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.

    There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
    What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from working 
    This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.

    suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind

    macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre mid 

    One of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that. 
    I don't hugely disagree but these comments from Clement on Cawley's (free) substack post this morning directly contradict that and highlight how his changes forced Norwich to change. The issue comes after that, we didn't adapt to whatever Norwich changed.

    “We didn’t start the game well. Charlton pressed in a different way than they had been doing for weeks. So the team had difficulty to recognise that.

    “It is a big working point for us to get experience on those things and speak on the pitch about what the solutions are. It took 15-20 minutes to get in contact with them. After, when they understood, we started to play our football."

    People (in general, not you specifically Paul) often talk about NJ being stubborn or not changing but I just don't think that's the case. I think he changes plenty but gets the same results. I sometimes think he actually changes too much and that throws off the players. We haven't stuck with one formation in a match for weeks and weeks now, it must be so confusing for the players on the pitch.

  • FirenzeAddick
    FirenzeAddick Posts: 141
    edited October 26
    fenaddick said:
    I think the main thing is he's tried to evolve too quickly and that in turn raised expectations. Oxford showed how hard the second season in a division is and Pompey didn't do much better either. Both sides finished lower than their first season in the division. Of the teams promoted the season before us, only Derby improved in the second season and that success currently looks like it was built on sand. If we hadn't tried to evolve as much then our recruitment would have focused on a back 5 and there's a chance we might have some more points, equally we might have fewer. I get why he wanted to evolve and I suspect a word was had from above but I think it was too soon. I'd take another season of pure ugly Jonesball just to keep us in the division.

    I agree with this. I think you can add that without a functioning SMT above him he is effectively running the whole show. Would he need to have been so involved in every club function and sleeping at Sparrows Lane if they had a CEO in place and a team around them? Results and fitness levels were far greater with Will Abbott in the building, who again was not replaced....

    No one person is realistically capable of that over the long term - and I hope that any decisions the board are considering in relation to his future take this into account
  • paulsturgess
    paulsturgess Posts: 4,400
    fenaddick said:
    I think the main thing is he's tried to evolve too quickly and that in turn raised expectations. Oxford showed how hard the second season in a division is and Pompey didn't do much better either. Both sides finished lower than their first season in the division. Of the teams promoted the season before us, only Derby improved in the second season and that success currently looks like it was built on sand. If we hadn't tried to evolve as much then our recruitment would have focused on a back 5 and there's a chance we might have some more points, equally we might have fewer. I get why he wanted to evolve and I suspect a word was had from above but I think it was too soon. I'd take another season of pure ugly Jonesball just to keep us in the division.
    Problem is I don’t think Jonesball would keep us in the division. Last season was a borderline fluke, i would say.. we rode the promotion high for 2 months and were incredibly fortunate to have points deductions below us which changed the dynamic. We were hopeless for the last 70% of the season, even the results we dug out were largely dismal. The Sheff U and Leicester wins were complete gifts

    To survive I think you need to be able to get enough of the winnable games over the line and we have no concept of how to do that; as witnessed this season, and in our dreadful end of season run when we were almost at the finish line and somehow failed to win some easy home games or Wednesday away 
  • arny23394
    arny23394 Posts: 1,578
    paulsturgess said:
    NabySarr said:
    FirenzeAddick said:
    SouthLincsAddick said:
    king addick said:
    Braziliance said:
    I wouldn't mind him leaving as I think his football is terrible most of the time. 

    The issue is, we can't attract any decent coaches/managers cause our ownership don't have the funds for a truly ambitious manager. 

    Come to the realisation that we need Nathan Jones as much as he needs us for now. Ffs.
    Minus the tonking they just took, no one heard of Vitor Matos when he took over at Swansea and he has done a pretty decent job. Yes they have more money but still competing against the leagues big hitters. 

    At the moment we are being put to shame by Lincoln! 

    This is the reality our supporters struggle to accept, as it offers little hope for the future. Swansea is an established Championship club and the sole team in a major city. Their revenue, and thus their player budget, far exceeds ours. Consequently, a relatively unknown manager might buy their way to competitiveness. Supporters criticise our recruitment, yet I would bet only a few signings over the past two years were genuine first choices, the remainder were scraps and leftovers. We are blaming the wrong person, please name a manager who would perform better with our available funds.


    I don't disagree with any of that. However, this idea that Jones is the only answer just feels so unambitious.

    He is a defensive coach (surrounded by defensive coaches) with an abrasive personality - when he is full of energy and has his 'edge' he builds a very competitive and physical side, however he has lost his edge and you can see that in his interviews and post match comments. I don't blame him at all for that, but without that energy it takes away what makes him a great manager a this level.

    A new coach with a fresh pair of eyes and renewed energy could come in, look at the players available, see a shape and structure that could benefit them and start to build.

    Just because Jones isn't able to do that, doesn't mean that no coach out there is able to do so.

    There are managers out there like Ryan Lowe, Liam Manning, Richie Wellens, Dean Brennan even Johnnie Jackson who would all be in the conversation around whether they could get this group going.
    What shape and structure would that be? We don’t have a right winger or right wing back so that pretty much rules out every shape or structure from working 
    This sort of comment is so ridiculously passive aggressive.

    suggestion of a perfectly reasonable possibility that a theoretical new manager could conceivably have a view on a new / alternative system and then the person making that perfectly logical suggestion is supposed to pre empt for Charlton life what ideas this theoretical new manager who’s yet to be appointed or see the squad might have in their mind

    macnamara is a RWB, and for what it’s worth managers often come up with new systems / positions / styles. Radostin kishishev was signed as a right back and curbs converted him into an effective premier league DMC. Did any ITK charlton lifers tip curbs off about that? Perhaps somebody even suggested before we’d signed him that we should sign a right back and try and play them in centre mid 

    One of my biggest criticisms of Jones is he appears to be incredibly tactically inflexible. He is quite backward in only really seeming to be able to come up with a system drill the squad to the nth degree how to play that and then that’s it. Modern football is much more fluid than that. 
    McNamara is many things, a RWB is not one of them.

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