I’m not sure if sacking him is the right move, but if we’re going to do it then do it now so we can have a new manager in ahead of the transfer window.
PWR, those who advocate sacking NJ, who do you suggest comes in? There is no outstanding candidate that I can see that's realistic. We keep changing managers on a far to regular basis, and it hasn't worked! .
Not sure where I am on the Jones stay or go point at present other than his results are not good enough and antics on the sideline come across as petulant rather than passionate when the chips are down.
But on this specific point - I've never really thought it is relevant what fans think....most of us aren't in a position to know who is available/ would come in. I am Charlton through and through and follow everything about the club but have a full time job and very little time to follow/ study the ins and outs of the football league.
Point being we have a well paid (I expect) Senior Management Team for which an integral role is succession planning and maintaining an ongoing and up to date shortlist of whom is available/ may be interested and when...or should do given how high managerial turnover is is the modern game.
Keeping a poor manager because us fans don't know who would replace them isnt really a material factor. At the same time it relies on having a management team capable of making such appointments which let's face it is a lottery nowadays whether you look a Charlton or behemoths like man united. I think it is just a dice roll and lotto and today's hot property soon becomes yesterday's man after a failed season or too in football.
Millwall and Palace have recycled and changed managers with one knocking on the door of Championship playoffs having rehired a previous club hero and another spending their umpteenth season in the premier league whilst we languish in our increasingly natural home of league one.
I would never have got rid of Powell or Jackson and think Holden was probably given too little time but am agnostic about all of the other departures other than them in the last 15 years.
Whether we should stick with an underperforming manager who has assembled a mediocre squad that is playing turgid football and not winning week in week alienated the league's top scorer and believes Tyreece Campbell is a striker and a bunch of Luton old boys are the answer is a separate question....but absence of fans' knowledge in who is available/ would be better isn't really a consideration as it is one that should be the sole responsibility of the people running the circus. It is literally their job and responsibility to ensure they are all over this given that the manager is perhaps the most important role at a football club.
His pitch side attitude is hugely concerning. When he was going mental while 2-0 up in a psf against Pompey, you knew it was going to all end in tears.
At the start of the season we had that high press going on and although we were just hitting long balls I thought we might be onto something but now the press has gone and all we do is hit it long to the big bloke upfront opposition defenders know exactly what’s coming and it’s just soul destroying watching it. I’m ashamed to say that watching us has become a chore now this season. I didn’t even bother to listen to NJ post match for the first time as I’m just not interested in what he has to say now. Start winning or change the style of play so atleast we are not boring when we lose ffs
Knee jerk sacking managers when the team are on a poor run seldom results in a positive change. But ... we need to consider these questions:
- is the team under performing based on money spent?
- has the team been under performing for a sustained period of time?
- were the new players in the team selected by the manager?
- are we playing the style of football that is unlikely to keep the fans on board?
- could there be a problem with the players not 'getting' the manager?
- does the manager appear to not be handling the pressure very well?
- has the manager failed to accept there is a systemic problem?
If some of those questions result in a 'yes' then there is a potential problem. If ALL of the questions can be answered with a 'yes' then there is almost certainly an insurmountable problem.
Your comments at the time of the appointment (and relative silence since) have always been a point of concern for me.
PWR, those who advocate sacking NJ, who do you suggest comes in? There is no outstanding candidate that I can see that's realistic. We keep changing managers on a far to regular basis, and it hasn't worked! .
Not sure where I am on the Jones stay or go point at present other than his results are not good enough and antics on the sideline come across as petulant rather than passionate when the chips are down.
But on this specific point - I've never really thought it is relevant what fans think....most of us aren't in a position to know who is available/ would come in. I am Charlton through and through and follow everything about the club but have a full time job and very little time to follow/ study the ins and outs of the football league.
Point being we have a well paid (I expect) Senior Management Team for which an integral role is succession planning and maintaining an ongoing and up to date shortlist of whom is available/ may be interested and when...or should do given how high managerial turnover is is the modern game.
Keeping a poor manager because us fans don't know who would replace them isnt really a material factor. At the same time it relies on having a management team capable of making such appointments which let's face it is a lottery nowadays whether you look a Charlton or behemoths like man united. I think it is just a dice roll and lotto and today's hot property soon becomes yesterday's man after a failed season or too in football.
Millwall and Palace have recycled and changed managers with one knocking on the door of Championship playoffs having rehired a previous club hero and another spending their umpteenth season in the premier league whilst we languish in our increasingly natural home of league one.
I would never have got rid of Powell or Jackson and think Holden was probably given too little time but am agnostic about all of the other departures other than them in the last 15 years.
Whether we should stick with an underperforming manager who has assembled a mediocre squad that is playing turgid football and not winning week in week alienated the league's top scorer and believes Tyreece Campbell is a striker and a bunch of Luton old boys are the answer is a separate question....but absence of fans' knowledge in who is available/ would be better isn't really a consideration as it is one that should be the sole responsibility of the people running the circus. It is literally their job and responsibility to ensure they are all over this given that the manager is perhaps the most important role at a football club.
Very good points but since some people have asked.
There is a young up and coming manager, played in the top flight but started his managerial career in non-league where he did well enough to get poached by a league 1 club and is currently doing OK with them.
And for those that like a Charlton connection is a former player.
I would give Curbishley, Jackson and Powell a load of dosh to get them to come in and work together in some sort of holy trinity. Get proper scouting in place.
Also get Steve Brown in as motivational coach/ head of morale.
Anyone have any idea on the player bonus structure at the club? I'm specifically thinking around promotion bonuses. Do they exist? Are they individually offered and differ from player to player? Would each player get the same amount regardless of personal contract? No. I've not gone mad and don't think one minute think we'll get anywhere near it. I'm just trying to reason in my head something someone said on here recently. The players change. The managers change. But nothing really changes. They can't all be bad players, but their attitude on the whole is sloppy and careless. Simple stuff. Poor control. Poor ball retention and distribution to name but a few. This has gone of for many a season now. Something at the core is wrong. Badly wrong. They just don't look hungry and incentivised.
I should think Methven would say he pays them decent wages and if they manage to get us to the championship then any new contracts can be renegotiated when they come up. But to my mind that kind of attitude breeds the 'going through the motions' behaviour we see week after week.
Anyone have any idea on the player bonus structure at the club? I'm specifically thinking around promotion bonuses. Do they exist? Are they individually offered and differ from player to player? Would each player get the same amount regardless of personal contract? No. I've not gone mad and don't think one minute think we'll get anywhere near it. I'm just trying to reason in my head something someone said on here recently. The players change. The managers change. But nothing really changes. They can't all be bad players, but their attitude on the whole is sloppy and careless. Simple stuff. Poor control. Poor ball retention and distribution to name but a few. This has gone of for many a season now. Something at the core is wrong. Badly wrong. They just don't look hungry and incentivised.
I should think Methven would say he pays them decent wages and if they manage to get us to the championship then any new contracts can be renegotiated when they come up. But to my mind that kind of attitude breeds the 'going through the motions' behaviour we see week after week.
I don't know but a member of the senior admin team complained last season that too many of the contracts they inherited weren't sufficiently linked to performance ie too high basic, not enough bonuses.
But since then they have recruited practically a whole new squad.
I don't think the players aren't trying or can't be bothered.
I do think many aren't good enough and that the tactics and formations don't suit the takents they have.
Knee jerk sacking managers when the team are on a poor run seldom results in a positive change. But ... we need to consider these questions:
- is the team under performing based on money spent?
- has the team been under performing for a sustained period of time?
- were the new players in the team selected by the manager?
- are we playing the style of football that is unlikely to keep the fans on board?
- could there be a problem with the players not 'getting' the manager?
- does the manager appear to not be handling the pressure very well?
- has the manager failed to accept there is a systemic problem?
If some of those questions result in a 'yes' then there is a potential problem. If ALL of the questions can be answered with a 'yes' then there is almost certainly an insurmountable problem.
A very good post, and unfortunately it's a yes to most questions for me.
- 100% yes. Even if I choose to ignore that the money was completely misspent, the players are worse than the fees, we still spent a top6 budget, and are sitting 14th.
- Yes, the stat I just heard on Charlton Live of 9 league wins in 37? Games is woeful. A 25% win rate in league 1 is simply unacceptable, especially when the football has been poor to watch.
- Yes. Which I find even more perplexing after reading Afkas post. That only 3 players featured last season in November. It's his team and his transfers completely.
- No we aren't playing a good style of football. I don't know any Charlton fan who enjoys the games, unless we win, but it's more relief. I can't stress enough that my cousins are in their infancies as Charlton fans and are getting fed up. You can't have young fans not enjoying watching the football, as they'll find something else to do with their weekends. That's the reality.
- Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the relationships are awkward. He doesn't come across as an endearing type like Adkins, Jackson and Holden as examples.
- Yes and no. I think it's his very nature to be a live wire. I think it's hard to tell if he's under pressure.
- Really hard to tell again, as I still can't work him out with his answers. He's either delusional, or dishonest, or, a bit of both. Because listening to his post match interviews are baffling. He sees the game completely wrong. We were never in the ascendancy yesterday, Huddersfield always looked like the better side, and truth be told, we have made minimal decent attacking efforts all season.
Had he not had success at Luton, I'd have the same feeling about him that I had about Appleton. I don't believe this ends well.
The November comment is slightly misleading as Coventry, Gillesphey and REG were all brought in before NJ was. It's still only 6 players but that is over half a starting team
The reality is that he’s on borrowed time . Even if we got our injured players back tomorrow his style of football is almost unbearable to watch and the fans won’t put up with it . It doesn’t help that he looks and acts like the stress is getting to him. ultimately, where we are now is down to the awful recruitment and we don’t know if that’s Scott’s or Jones’s doing but considering we’ve signed Luton’s cast offs I’d say it’s the latter .
I’ve said it before and it’s probably never going to happen but I’d do everything I can to get Sheffield Wednesday’s assistant manager .
You could answer yes to all of those. Like you, I’m not a fan of sacking managers every five minutes but there comes a point where you have to accept it’s not working.
You could, but how right would you be? I get the feeling a number of our signings were 2nd or 3rd choice.
Mannion and AMB fighting for the No 1 spot is a prime example of how not getting your best choice in makes the team considerably weaker.
The reality is that he’s on borrowed time . Even if we got our injured players back tomorrow his style of football is almost unbearable to watch and the fans won’t put up with it . It doesn’t help that he looks and acts like the stress is getting to him. ultimately, where we are now is down to the awful recruitment and we don’t know if that’s Scott’s or Jones’s doing but considering we’ve signed Luton’s cast offs I’d say it’s the latter .
I’ve said it before and it’s probably never going to happen but I’d do everything I can to get Sheffield Wednesday’s assistant manager .
This is something that the owners need to consider. From day one, the football has been horrible to watch. When I was there a couple of months back, it was costing around £100 all up, for a few hours of boredom and frustration.
Yesterday, only a tenner to watch online, but even that was a waste of money, that would have been better spent going out for the evening.
I have friends in Australia that have given up getting up in the middle of the night only to be subjected to the same dross week in, week out. The one memorable moment yesterday was Leaburn beating two men, other than that I cannot think of one other instance of a Charlton player displaying any skill or inventiveness.
Any manager we employ who oversees a poor run of form and results assumes the clueless clown mantle vacated by the last incumbent to get the Spanish archer. Jones will go the same way I expect.
When was the last time we waited for a manager to emerge from a crisis, and so averted pushing the panic button? Obviously you can't bear with a failing manager indefinitely waiting for something that isn't certain to happen, but I don't think we've always pushed the eject button at the right time since Curbs era.
he needs to go before the January 'window' .. we do not need him spending whatever money is available on more has beens and never will bes .. (slight digression) AND what has he done about our dire goalkeeping issue ? ..i m o a worse state than any other position in the squad
Before Jones was appointed, who I thought was a good appointment, I was half hoping we might be able to tempt Mark Warburton to consider taking us on, but I'm not sure he's ever been a candidate and probably wouldn't be interested anyway.
Needs to be given time. We can’t keep sacking managers. He has January and the summer but if we’re still having this conversation next November then he’s just not going to turn it around.
I have an analogy about this relating to something I like very much: strategic board games.
Imagine a football board game where it is possible to get points by strategically collecting cards, the total number of various points of which enable you to get a decent coherent team and manager. This takes time; maybe you need five rounds which equates to five seasons.
However there is always the possibility to literally throw the dice and hope for the best. Charlton chose this strategy in 2020, four rounds ago and we were allowed to use the twenty sided die. When we tried again for the second time in the game we had to use the 16 sided die. Every time you take this risk your chances decrease. We do it twice a season sometimes and so last time we had to use the six sided die. Next time it may be a four sided die or maybe the coin. If you use this option too many times and end up with the black side of the coin, you get relegated.
Meanwhile across the table there are others who’ve been deck-building all game and now in a position of strength. Our friends John Wycombe, Bob Stockport and Jim Lincoln were in a worse position than us at the start of the game but have since used a plan of patience and gradual development. They look back at us across the rable and see our desperation.
What do we do? As I said last time: our position is bad but don’t throw the die. Start building something. It’s never too late because this real-life game doesn’t end.
Needs to be given time. We can’t keep sacking managers. He has January and the summer but if we’re still having this conversation next November then he’s just not going to turn it around.
Needs to be given time. We can’t keep sacking managers. He has January and the summer but if we’re still having this conversation next November then he’s just not going to turn it around.
Fair comment, but look at who he has bought in and some of the tactics/selections.
I doubt he will be allowed to replace 15+ players next summer and the current squad is clearly not good enough. I also think the club will sell Miles and some of the other youngsters.
Hard to see how he turns it around with the squad, the tactics and the generally poor style of football.
On top of all that, i think he wants out, hence the weird behaviour, tactics and anger.
PWR, those who advocate sacking NJ, who do you suggest comes in? There is no outstanding candidate that I can see that's realistic. We keep changing managers on a far to regular basis, and it hasn't worked! .
Not sure where I am on the Jones stay or go point at present other than his results are not good enough and antics on the sideline come across as petulant rather than passionate when the chips are down.
But on this specific point - I've never really thought it is relevant what fans think....most of us aren't in a position to know who is available/ would come in. I am Charlton through and through and follow everything about the club but have a full time job and very little time to follow/ study the ins and outs of the football league.
Point being we have a well paid (I expect) Senior Management Team for which an integral role is succession planning and maintaining an ongoing and up to date shortlist of whom is available/ may be interested and when...or should do given how high managerial turnover is is the modern game.
Keeping a poor manager because us fans don't know who would replace them isnt really a material factor. At the same time it relies on having a management team capable of making such appointments which let's face it is a lottery nowadays whether you look a Charlton or behemoths like man united. I think it is just a dice roll and lotto and today's hot property soon becomes yesterday's man after a failed season or too in football.
Millwall and Palace have recycled and changed managers with one knocking on the door of Championship playoffs having rehired a previous club hero and another spending their umpteenth season in the premier league whilst we languish in our increasingly natural home of league one.
I would never have got rid of Powell or Jackson and think Holden was probably given too little time but am agnostic about all of the other departures other than them in the last 15 years.
Whether we should stick with an underperforming manager who has assembled a mediocre squad that is playing turgid football and not winning week in week alienated the league's top scorer and believes Tyreece Campbell is a striker and a bunch of Luton old boys are the answer is a separate question....but absence of fans' knowledge in who is available/ would be better isn't really a consideration as it is one that should be the sole responsibility of the people running the circus. It is literally their job and responsibility to ensure they are all over this given that the manager is perhaps the most important role at a football club.
Very good points but since some people have asked.
There is a young up and coming manager, played in the top flight but started his managerial career in non-league where he did well enough to get poached by a league 1 club and is currently doing OK with them.
And for those that like a Charlton connection is a former player.
Comments
You may say that - I couldn't possibly comment!
Your comments at the time of the appointment (and relative silence since) have always been a point of concern for me.
There is a young up and coming manager, played in the top flight but started his managerial career in non-league where he did well enough to get poached by a league 1 club and is currently doing OK with them.
And for those that like a Charlton connection is a former player.
In fact he's a fan.
Ladies and gentlemen I give you Robbie Elliott
Also get Steve Brown in as motivational coach/ head of morale.
I'm specifically thinking around promotion bonuses.
Do they exist? Are they individually offered and differ from player to player? Would each player get the same amount regardless of personal contract?
No. I've not gone mad and don't think one minute think we'll get anywhere near it.
I'm just trying to reason in my head something someone said on here recently. The players change. The managers change. But nothing really changes.
They can't all be bad players, but their attitude on the whole is sloppy and careless. Simple stuff. Poor control. Poor ball retention and distribution to name but a few.
This has gone of for many a season now. Something at the core is wrong. Badly wrong.
They just don't look hungry and incentivised.
I should think Methven would say he pays them decent wages and if they manage to get us to the championship then any new contracts can be renegotiated when they come up.
But to my mind that kind of attitude breeds the 'going through the motions' behaviour we see week after week.
But since then they have recruited practically a whole new squad.
I don't think the players aren't trying or can't be bothered.
I do think many aren't good enough and that the tactics and formations don't suit the takents they have.
- 100% yes. Even if I choose to ignore that the money was completely misspent, the players are worse than the fees, we still spent a top6 budget, and are sitting 14th.
- Yes, the stat I just heard on Charlton Live of 9 league wins in 37? Games is woeful. A 25% win rate in league 1 is simply unacceptable, especially when the football has been poor to watch.
- Yes. Which I find even more perplexing after reading Afkas post. That only 3 players featured last season in November. It's his team and his transfers completely.
- No we aren't playing a good style of football. I don't know any Charlton fan who enjoys the games, unless we win, but it's more relief. I can't stress enough that my cousins are in their infancies as Charlton fans and are getting fed up. You can't have young fans not enjoying watching the football, as they'll find something else to do with their weekends. That's the reality.
- Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the relationships are awkward. He doesn't come across as an endearing type like Adkins, Jackson and Holden as examples.
- Yes and no. I think it's his very nature to be a live wire. I think it's hard to tell if he's under pressure.
- Really hard to tell again, as I still can't work him out with his answers. He's either delusional, or dishonest, or, a bit of both. Because listening to his post match interviews are baffling. He sees the game completely wrong. We were never in the ascendancy yesterday, Huddersfield always looked like the better side, and truth be told, we have made minimal decent attacking efforts all season.
Had he not had success at Luton, I'd have the same feeling about him that I had about Appleton. I don't believe this ends well.
ultimately, where we are now is down to the awful recruitment and we don’t know if that’s Scott’s or Jones’s doing but considering we’ve signed Luton’s cast offs I’d say it’s the latter .
Mannion and AMB fighting for the No 1 spot is a prime example of how not getting your best choice in makes the team considerably weaker.
I follow Charlton cause I love ‘em , good times bad times and indifferent times doesn’t matter to me , I will stand with em.
Charlton till I die.👍
This season is another write off, so get rid in May and start shedding the crap players in January.?
As for who comes in next? The problem is that no decent manager, young or old, will choose to come to us?
Sadly, we are messed up - top to bottom.
Yesterday, only a tenner to watch online, but even that was a waste of money, that would have been better spent going out for the evening.
I have friends in Australia that have given up getting up in the middle of the night only to be subjected to the same dross week in, week out.
The one memorable moment yesterday was Leaburn beating two men, other than that I cannot think of one other instance of a Charlton player displaying any skill or inventiveness.
When was the last time we waited for a manager to emerge from a crisis, and so averted pushing the panic button? Obviously you can't bear with a failing manager indefinitely waiting for something that isn't certain to happen, but I don't think we've always pushed the eject button at the right time since Curbs era.
OK, he did well at Luton but since then? His time at Southampton & Stoke was a disaster.
And his time here is rapidly going the same way.
Imagine a football board game where it is possible to get points by strategically collecting cards, the total number of various points of which enable you to get a decent coherent team and manager. This takes time; maybe you need five rounds which equates to five seasons.
However there is always the possibility to literally throw the dice and hope for the best. Charlton chose this strategy in 2020, four rounds ago and we were allowed to use the twenty sided die. When we tried again for the second time in the game we had to use the 16 sided die. Every time you take this risk your chances decrease. We do it twice a season sometimes and so last time we had to use the six sided die. Next time it may be a four sided die or maybe the coin. If you use this option too many times and end up with the black side of the coin, you get relegated.
Meanwhile across the table there are others who’ve been deck-building all game and now in a position of strength. Our friends John Wycombe, Bob Stockport and Jim Lincoln were in a worse position than us at the start of the game but have since used a plan of patience and gradual development. They look back at us across the rable and see our desperation.
What do we do? As I said last time: our position is bad but don’t throw the die. Start building something. It’s never too late because this real-life game doesn’t end.
I doubt he will be allowed to replace 15+ players next summer and the current squad is clearly not good enough. I also think the club will sell Miles and some of the other youngsters.
Hard to see how he turns it around with the squad, the tactics and the generally poor style of football.
On top of all that, i think he wants out, hence the weird behaviour, tactics and anger.
Trajectory of the club is even further downwards