I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

ForeverAddickted

Only positive thing about taking the Manager's job here is the pay off after six / eight months

If you're a Manager on the way up, why would you risk your reputation at Charlton, what with the Manager turnover alone...?

ShootersHillGuru

Not sure how many times I’ve thought this but I think the club is at a crossroads. New owners who seem to be in it for the long haul and have money and credibility have had a year now to assess what’s what and I have little doubt that at some point soon questions are going to be asked. Seems at least CM has been trusted to steer the ship and is the man on the ground for the board. He’ll be the one required to answer those questions as to why despite significant changes and investment being made there is no measurable improvement in the most important metric of team performance. Turning around the good ship CAFC was never going to be quick or easy but one year down the line I’d have thought the owners would expect to see signs of better things to come. I don’t think either Methvens or indeed Jones positions are in question but realistically this season is already dead so next season it will be expected or perhaps required that things are measurably improving. We’re told our playing budget is top four for the division so I would have thought top eight in reality should be the bare minimum required. We’re miles off that and something and someone have failed to meet their brief. Perhaps this season was a free hit for Jones but I doubt next season will be.

paulsturgess

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

fenaddick

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

Chris_from_Sidcup

bobmunro said:

Knee jerk sacking managers when the team are on a poor run seldom results in a positive change. But ... we need to consider these questions:

- is the team under performing based on money spent?

- has the team been under performing for a sustained period of time?

- were the new players in the team selected by the manager?

- are we playing the style of football that is unlikely to keep the fans on board?

- could there be a problem with the players not 'getting' the manager?

- does the manager appear to not be handling the pressure very well?

- has the manager failed to accept there is a systemic problem?

If some of those questions result in a 'yes' then there is a potential problem. If ALL of the questions can be answered with a 'yes' then there is almost certainly an insurmountable problem.

This is a pretty damning post. I'm currently in the 'give him more time, he's only had 1 transfer window' camp but when i went through those and answered yes for every single one then it's hard to see things improving if he stays.

I'd still say we give him the January window but if he doesn't address our lack of creativity by then he might as well go because if he can't see the problem then we're going nowhere.

paulsturgess

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

I haven’t missed the point. To answer his question, I’m expecting we get a carefully selected high quality young coach with potential to grow along the lines of McKenna or Buckingham. Instead we have gone for successive incredibly lazy appointments. 

Callum seems to be defending Jones and/or the board because we have him (and had Appleton) after “trying” to get Buckingham and Challinor. Buckingham went to Oxford ?! That is not an acceptable excuse to then appoint Appleton, or Jones (who by the way, I imagine cost a fair bit more than Buckingham did).

ShootersHillGuru

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

bobmunro said:

Knee jerk sacking managers when the team are on a poor run seldom results in a positive change. But ... we need to consider these questions:

- is the team under performing based on money spent?

- has the team been under performing for a sustained period of time?

- were the new players in the team selected by the manager?

- are we playing the style of football that is unlikely to keep the fans on board?

- could there be a problem with the players not 'getting' the manager?

- does the manager appear to not be handling the pressure very well?

- has the manager failed to accept there is a systemic problem?

If some of those questions result in a 'yes' then there is a potential problem. If ALL of the questions can be answered with a 'yes' then there is almost certainly an insurmountable problem.

This is a pretty damning post. I'm currently in the 'give him more time, he's only had 1 transfer window' camp but when i went through those and answered yes for every single one then it's hard to see things improving if he stays.

I'd still say we give him the January window but if he doesn't address our lack of creativity by then he might as well go because if he can't see the problem then we're going nowhere.

Addressing our lack of creativity in January is going to be extremely difficult. Even if there is money to spend I doubt we could attract a Championship player who fits the bill and any league one club is unlikely to want to sell or lose a player that presumably is of good quality. We’re pretty much restricted to the loan market and I’m guessing that’s likely to be a couple of PL kids. Things might be different in the summer but the fact we’re in this predicament is lays very much at the door of Nathan Jones. Clearly what we’re experiencing now in terms of performances won’t be good enough next season. Despite what some posters are saying, this season is over. The summer is yet again of paramount importance.

swordfish

Seasons only over when there's nothing left to play for. 

fenaddick

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

I haven’t missed the point. To answer his question, I’m expecting we get a carefully selected high quality young coach with potential to grow along the lines of McKenna or Buckingham. Instead we have gone for successive incredibly lazy appointments. 

Callum seems to be defending Jones and/or the board because we have him (and had Appleton) after “trying” to get Buckingham and Challinor. Buckingham went to Oxford ?! That is not an acceptable excuse to then appoint Appleton, or Jones (who by the way, I imagine cost a fair bit more than Buckingham did).

But the point is we tried that and got rejected. Buckingham then went to his boyhood club. I would have preferred a young up and coming coach too but it's not fair to say we didn't try that. At some point there becomes a balancing act, is the next young coach on the list more or less likely to succeed than Jones? I don't think the problem with any of the candidates was money

ShootersHillGuru

swordfish said:

Seasons only over when there's nothing left to play for. 

We’re currently bottom half and it’s exactly where we deserve to be. Unless I’m phenomenally wrong about our January transfer window I personally can’t see a snowballs chance in hell of this group of players and manager turning our season around. Top six is a complete pipe dream as far as I’m concerned. Unless of course you mean avoiding a relegation scrap is having something to play for.

swordfish

ShootersHillGuru said:

swordfish said:

Seasons only over when there's nothing left to play for. 

We’re currently bottom half and it’s exactly where we deserve to be. Unless I’m phenomenally wrong about our January transfer window I personally can’t see a snowballs chance in hell of this group of players and manager turning our season around. Top six is a complete pipe dream as far as I’m concerned. Unless of course you mean avoiding a relegation scrap is having something to play for.

We could still go down, up and are still in two cup competitions. You'll have to explain to me again how that's a season over scenario because I don't get it. 

ElfsborgAddick

Chunes said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Chunes said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Chunes said:

Seeing as so many of his former players were happy to rejoin him, I can only conclude NJ can't be that difficult to work with. 

Money talks.

I think that's dismissing a logical conclusion supported by evidence in favour of pure conjecture. If there's actual evidence that money was the main factor in them rejoining Jones, I'd be open to believing it.

Increase in wages or not having any better offers usually leads to players joining a club.
It may not be the case here, but in general this is my view on how it works.

That's fair, but without any evidence about wages or offers in this case, we can only go by what we do know: several players have willingly rejoined Jones, which suggests they are happy to work with him.

Fair enough.  My point was money in general, I agree with you regards the Luton players signing for Jones.

ElfsborgAddick

swordfish said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Chunes said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Chunes said:

Seeing as so many of his former players were happy to rejoin him, I can only conclude NJ can't be that difficult to work with. 

Money talks.

I think that's dismissing a logical conclusion supported by evidence in favour of pure conjecture. If there's actual evidence that money was the main factor in them rejoining Jones, I'd be open to believing it.

Increase in wages or not having any better offers usually leads to players joining a club.
It may not be the case here, but in general this is my view on how it works.

So the money is good enough to tempt players to join us, but not enough to convince fans our owners are spending any. Ok I get it .

That is not what I said.
Take away the May transfer fee and this lot have not pushed the boat out.

NabySarr

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

I haven’t missed the point. To answer his question, I’m expecting we get a carefully selected high quality young coach with potential to grow along the lines of McKenna or Buckingham. Instead we have gone for successive incredibly lazy appointments. 

Callum seems to be defending Jones and/or the board because we have him (and had Appleton) after “trying” to get Buckingham and Challinor. Buckingham went to Oxford ?! That is not an acceptable excuse to then appoint Appleton, or Jones (who by the way, I imagine cost a fair bit more than Buckingham did).

Buckingham was born in Oxford and played for them as a kid. Can’t blame the board there as it’s obvious why he would choose to go there and not to us

ElfsborgAddick

swordfish said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

swordfish said:

Seasons only over when there's nothing left to play for. 

We’re currently bottom half and it’s exactly where we deserve to be. Unless I’m phenomenally wrong about our January transfer window I personally can’t see a snowballs chance in hell of this group of players and manager turning our season around. Top six is a complete pipe dream as far as I’m concerned. Unless of course you mean avoiding a relegation scrap is having something to play for.

We could still go down, up and are still in two cup competitions. You'll have to explain to me again how that's a season over scenario because I don't get it. 

We're not winning the FA Cup, and the other one does not count.
We're going backwards.

NabySarr

ShootersHillGuru said:

swordfish said:

Seasons only over when there's nothing left to play for. 

We’re currently bottom half and it’s exactly where we deserve to be. Unless I’m phenomenally wrong about our January transfer window I personally can’t see a snowballs chance in hell of this group of players and manager turning our season around. Top six is a complete pipe dream as far as I’m concerned. Unless of course you mean avoiding a relegation scrap is having something to play for.

It’s unlikely but stringing one run of wins together would put us right back in the mix. Burton and Crawley are games we should win, even in our current state, and then we could have Lloyd Jones returning along with TC and Leaburn continuing to be able to play more minutes returning from their injuries 

Kindoncasella

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

Isn't that partly due to Peterboroughs great scouting system? I doubt any manager would do much better with our current squad.

Chris_from_Sidcup

ShootersHillGuru said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

bobmunro said:

Knee jerk sacking managers when the team are on a poor run seldom results in a positive change. But ... we need to consider these questions:

- is the team under performing based on money spent?

- has the team been under performing for a sustained period of time?

- were the new players in the team selected by the manager?

- are we playing the style of football that is unlikely to keep the fans on board?

- could there be a problem with the players not 'getting' the manager?

- does the manager appear to not be handling the pressure very well?

- has the manager failed to accept there is a systemic problem?

If some of those questions result in a 'yes' then there is a potential problem. If ALL of the questions can be answered with a 'yes' then there is almost certainly an insurmountable problem.

This is a pretty damning post. I'm currently in the 'give him more time, he's only had 1 transfer window' camp but when i went through those and answered yes for every single one then it's hard to see things improving if he stays.

I'd still say we give him the January window but if he doesn't address our lack of creativity by then he might as well go because if he can't see the problem then we're going nowhere.

Addressing our lack of creativity in January is going to be extremely difficult. Even if there is money to spend I doubt we could attract a Championship player who fits the bill and any league one club is unlikely to want to sell or lose a player that presumably is of good quality. We’re pretty much restricted to the loan market and I’m guessing that’s likely to be a couple of PL kids. Things might be different in the summer but the fact we’re in this predicament is lays very much at the door of Nathan Jones. Clearly what we’re experiencing now in terms of performances won’t be good enough next season. Despite what some posters are saying, this season is over. The summer is yet again of paramount importance.

There might be a player out of contract in the summer though that a club is willing to take a small fee for rather than lose him for nothing (like us with CBT last year).

ForeverAddickted

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

I haven’t missed the point. To answer his question, I’m expecting we get a carefully selected high quality young coach with potential to grow along the lines of McKenna or Buckingham. Instead we have gone for successive incredibly lazy appointments. 

Callum seems to be defending Jones and/or the board because we have him (and had Appleton) after “trying” to get Buckingham and Challinor. Buckingham went to Oxford ?! That is not an acceptable excuse to then appoint Appleton, or Jones (who by the way, I imagine cost a fair bit more than Buckingham did).

But the point is we tried that and got rejected. Buckingham then went to his boyhood club. I would have preferred a young up and coming coach too but it's not fair to say we didn't try that. At some point there becomes a balancing act, is the next young coach on the list more or less likely to succeed than Jones? I don't think the problem with any of the candidates was money

The enthusiasm for Buckingham at the time when he got mentioned as being linked wasnt exactly positive either. Fans felt that we needed another experienced Manager to get us out of the mess that we were in, rather than some project. There was an equal lack of enthusiasm for Dave Challinor too when he was linked, as at the time Stockport had lost five matches on the trot or something to that extent.

WillmoreTheRed

Give him January, if there isn't a clear shift in performances after Jan then he's got to go in my eyes. He's picked enough of his own players, all of which aren't good enough. 

ForeverAddickted

Kindoncasella said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

Isn't that partly due to Peterboroughs great scouting system? I doubt any manager would do much better with our current squad.

Think its the sum of all parts there at Peterborough, rather than just one of Fry, MacAnthony or Ferguson.

Stig

swordfish said:

Seasons only over when there's nothing left to play for. 

September, then?

Stig

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

When you start to consider the ones that walked away from the 'opportunity' as well as the ones that were appointed and failed, the more it looks like there are structural issues at the club and they key problem is above and beyond who the first team manager is. When we were in the Premiership, the club would make great play of the fact that you couldn't just put success down to one thing, rather it was players, management, board and supporters all pulling in the same direction. There hasn't been that unity for best part of twenty years now. Things have not been good since Murray appointed Dowie, with what seems like the key motive of annoying Jordan. That backfired big time and nothing's been the same since.

It seems to me that the madness of the Duchatelet years, the pillage of the club by ESI, and the misguided tinkerings of Sandgaard have left the club depleted in all areas. The main ones to my mind (though as an outsider, I don't really know what goes on) are medical/fitness and recruitment - both player and manager. I was hoping that with some of the appointments the new board made earlier in the season that we'd start to see improvements. It hasn't happened yet.

Garrymanilow

The troubling thing is Jones is still talking about how we're missing power, size and aggression in the team. Two things worry me about that. One is that I don't necessarily think it's all that true. Lloyd Jones is out, we're missing the industry of Kanu and the Chuks of Chuks. We miss Ramsay's defensive capabilities and recovery pace. That's about it though. AMB has doesn't anything too bad since coming in, we're not missing Edun and Watson.

Missing our two best defenders is definitely not ideal and I think we'd see the benefit of a Kanu/Godden partnership but overall we're not in crisis like we usually are at this stage in the season. Gillesphey isn't the kind of player Jones would choose at the back but the midfield is where the main problems are and he's chosen Docherty, ACampbell and Berry himself. Two players who did his lunatic press at Luton and a player known for being an aggressive pressing dynamo at this level. He's got Karoy and in Coventry he's got statistically one of the best tacklers and interceptors in the league even if people don't rate his passing choices. The midfielder he likes the least is the one who's looked most effective so far and that's Taylor. I don't really buy the complaints that we don't have the personnel so the question has to be why he can't make anyone, including two players who made their names off doing it, press aggressively and get into the opposition's face anymore. That's a real problem and new players or better defenders aren't going to fix that, they'll just plug leaks further back so we can hope to go back to the good old days of 1-0 wins. We were pressing better with Camara and Bakinson at times last season. The real question needs to be why can't these players who did exactly this job at Luton for exactly this manager not do it now? Why does a player who got promoted as L1 champion and then played 90 games at Championship level look completely out of his depth? Why is a striker who scored 13 goals at this level last season looking lost on the pitch? It feels a bit like nothing has changed and we still destroy players when they get here.

Which leads to the second concern; if Jones thinks the solution is just this but more so, that's a bit of a gamble for the ownership on current evidence. Do we remove every inch of variety in our team and sign more big, angry power monsters so if Lloyd Jones gets injured we can replace him with another legally distinct Lloyd Jones in order to suit the manager's plan? Or will they look at the likes of Docherty, ACampbell and Ahadme and argue that he hasn't got much of a tune out of the ones we've signed him so far and some of the better players this season like Lloyd, Taylor, Coventry and Tyreece were already here? It's a bit of a pickle because this Jones style is all-in. If we get to the end of the season and we've finished 18th and he has to go, then we have to start all over again; there's nothing positive about having to sign an almost entirely new squad because this time we've gone for the up and coming young coach who likes to play possession football. We signed two ball-playing centre backs for Appleton and then sacked him minutes later and now Jones is trying to get REG and Gillesphey to break people's legs every week and we're seeing the results of that. Imagine if the next bloke wants wingers, a creative midfielder and a keeper who can play a bit like Garner did a total of two seasons ago? Or do we now exclusively hire managers who want bastards in every position and just pray that this next one clicks with them?

It really is a big choice that needs to be made by the end of December. Doing nothing isn't an option because there's no doubt that not backing the manager with what he (says he) needs is a recipe for failure. Do we sign more hulks? Do we call it a day and let a new bloke have a look while the squad is still slightly hybrid and there's a window ahead of him? Or can Jones be convinced that there's a problem needing fixing with the players that goes deeper than 'be bigger'? Don't know the answers to any of that but it has to be one of those things or nothing is going to change. An interesting few months ahead if nothing else.

ShootersHillGuru

swordfish said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

swordfish said:

Seasons only over when there's nothing left to play for. 

We’re currently bottom half and it’s exactly where we deserve to be. Unless I’m phenomenally wrong about our January transfer window I personally can’t see a snowballs chance in hell of this group of players and manager turning our season around. Top six is a complete pipe dream as far as I’m concerned. Unless of course you mean avoiding a relegation scrap is having something to play for.

We could still go down, up and are still in two cup competitions. You'll have to explain to me again how that's a season over scenario because I don't get it. 

Technically you are of course correct but I’ll say right now we won’t get top six, relegated or win any cups. 

oohaahmortimer

Anything but promotion is failure (no we won’t win the fa cup and the pricko trophy is exactly that )

cos we’ve been shit and are currently shit I’m sure we’ll have a wankathon when we’ve climbed to 10th in a few weeks and finish 8th if we get lucky and that’s a best case scenario!
Nut job is a busted flush 
we’ll do well to find anyone who will make us worse than we currently are but I’m sure we could give it a go !!!

paulsturgess

NabySarr said:

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

I haven’t missed the point. To answer his question, I’m expecting we get a carefully selected high quality young coach with potential to grow along the lines of McKenna or Buckingham. Instead we have gone for successive incredibly lazy appointments. 

Callum seems to be defending Jones and/or the board because we have him (and had Appleton) after “trying” to get Buckingham and Challinor. Buckingham went to Oxford ?! That is not an acceptable excuse to then appoint Appleton, or Jones (who by the way, I imagine cost a fair bit more than Buckingham did).

Buckingham was born in Oxford and played for them as a kid. Can’t blame the board there as it’s obvious why he would choose to go there and not to us

right, but why do they then give up on that strategy entirely and make 2 consecutive abysmal, lazy appointments who had actually proven their ineptitude prior to being appointed? Obviously no appointment is guaranteed to succeed, but they should be doing proper research, due diligence, assessment and looking for a considered appointment with much more judgement and information than I have.

99.9% of Charlton fans knew Appleton was a joke, and whilst I hoped Jones would work out because of the Luton thing, I was very sceptical based on the Stoke and Southampton debacles and particularly based on how he came across during those and crucially on how he plays his football. I would have expected a vaguely competent board doing more comprehensive assessment than your average football fan to weed this out.

I just cannot accept the line that Buckingham rejected us for Oxford United, so the only options were to go with a couple of expensive, mouthy and dislikeable proven failures. 

Braziliance

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

To be fair, why would any of those leave their clubs at the time? 

Peterborough are a much better ran club and been better than us at football in the last decade for around 8 of those years. He also probably has a good relationship with the owner, despite the dismissals.

Stockport are on the up, Challinor probably didn't want to leave a club where he's really built something, especially to a bang average team like us. 

And Buckingham probably knew that if he was patient, a better run club who are better at football would come along and swoop him up.

Peterborough, Oxford and Stockport, all better run clubs than us, all far better at football. It is what it is.

I don't believe there's a single person left who has faith in Nathan Jones based on the football we are seeing, it's solely because of his Luton times. 

fenaddick

Braziliance said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

To be fair, why would any of those leave their clubs at the time? 

Peterborough are a much better ran club and been better than us at football in the last decade for around 8 of those years. He also probably has a good relationship with the owner, despite the dismissals.

Stockport are on the up, Challinor probably didn't want to leave a club where he's really built something, especially to a bang average team like us. 

And Buckingham probably knew that if he was patient, a better run club who are better at football would come along and swoop him up.

Peterborough, Oxford and Stockport, all better run clubs than us, all far better at football. It is what it is.

I don't believe there's a single person left who has faith in Nathan Jones based on the football we are seeing, it's solely because of his Luton times. 

But that's my point, what's changed? What manager would come in now to what appears to be a poisoned chalice? 

Braziliance

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Before we got Appleton in, weren’t we rejected by Des Buckingham and Dave Challinor?

Who do people think will take this job on that’s any more likely to be successful than a bloke who already took a team from bottom half of League 2 to top six of the Championship?

This question is exactly the sort of incredibly lazy and inept coach-selection that is why we are where we are!! Honestly mate I do not know what planet you are on.

"this guy got somebody promoted from this division once, let's get him"

How about you expect the board of a football club to do some slightly more involved selection process, considering, for example:

- somebody's overall career achievements (i.e. 1 successful job, 2 catastrophic failures);
- their personality;
- their coaching and playing style;
- their man management ability;
- their press / fan engagement ability;
- many other nuanced details that wouldn't be evident to us as fans.

And then make a selection. How do you think Ipswich chose Kieran Mckenna? It wasn't because he had previously got somebody promoted from this division. 

Think you've missed the point of Callum's post. We DID do that and we got rejected by at least three names (including Ferguson who really knows how to get out of this league) and ended up with Jones because he was the best option left. What has changed to make that any different now?

To be fair, why would any of those leave their clubs at the time? 

Peterborough are a much better ran club and been better than us at football in the last decade for around 8 of those years. He also probably has a good relationship with the owner, despite the dismissals.

Stockport are on the up, Challinor probably didn't want to leave a club where he's really built something, especially to a bang average team like us. 

And Buckingham probably knew that if he was patient, a better run club who are better at football would come along and swoop him up.

Peterborough, Oxford and Stockport, all better run clubs than us, all far better at football. It is what it is.

I don't believe there's a single person left who has faith in Nathan Jones based on the football we are seeing, it's solely because of his Luton times. 

But that's my point, what's changed? What manager would come in now to what appears to be a poisoned chalice? 

Nothing, we are s**t and have leeches everywhere in the club. 

I was mainly saying there's no harm in getting rejected by those managers, as they had better hands on them at the time.

Based on what I've seen so far, I refuse to believe that out of two hundred thousand qualified football coaches, that not one of them could serve up better football. It's lazy by the owners and people making the big decisions to think otherwise. 

Same as the players, signing absolute horses**t season after season. Where are the people in house with football knowledge. It's a joke.