I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

daveydanger

We weren’t stroking the ball around, it was 90mins of lumping it

daveydanger

ForeverAddickted said:

Were we setup as the Underdog vs Burton with tin hats on? - The majority of the game we were camped in their half werent we, whilst we ended up with over 20-attempts on goal.

I mean there are plenty of examples to use where that has been the case, so find that focusing on the last game the most strange. 

Tbh I just tossed in the name of the last nomark team we played. Point still stands generally 

fenaddick

daveydanger said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Possibly a bit of an exaggeration to say Jones doesn’t try to win, but I’d put it like this: he sets us up as the underdog, in every game, regardless of opposition. Completely focussed on mitigating the other side.

When we actually are the underdog, it sort of works. When we aren’t - the whole thing falls flat.

You hear it in his talking points time and again. He never dwells on our ability to create chances or craft something it’s -  disrupt, chase, be physical, don’t concede, “front footed”… and in distant last place, maybe nick a goal.

Yes it’s a bit big time Charlie of me - but sod it - I expect us to show up at half the tinpot teams in this league as the bigger fish, a little bit feared, the favourites with the large budget… not donning tin hats against Burton Albion. 

In what world is having 24 shots, 4 big chances, 7 corners and only 3 outfield players average position being in your own half "donning the tin hat?"

I also disagree he sets us up as the underdog. Aiming to disrupt someone's gameplan doesn't make you an underdog, when it works it just makes you a pain in the arse for the opposition. 

I agree that the style of play could and should be better but we aren't pretending to be the underdogs against Burton, Stevenage etc. we're just playing poorly and not doing a lot of the basics right a lot of the time. 

NabySarr

fenaddick said:

daveydanger said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Possibly a bit of an exaggeration to say Jones doesn’t try to win, but I’d put it like this: he sets us up as the underdog, in every game, regardless of opposition. Completely focussed on mitigating the other side.

When we actually are the underdog, it sort of works. When we aren’t - the whole thing falls flat.

You hear it in his talking points time and again. He never dwells on our ability to create chances or craft something it’s -  disrupt, chase, be physical, don’t concede, “front footed”… and in distant last place, maybe nick a goal.

Yes it’s a bit big time Charlie of me - but sod it - I expect us to show up at half the tinpot teams in this league as the bigger fish, a little bit feared, the favourites with the large budget… not donning tin hats against Burton Albion. 

In what world is having 24 shots, 4 big chances, 7 corners and only 3 outfield players average position being in your own half "donning the tin hat?"

I also disagree he sets us up as the underdog. Aiming to disrupt someone's gameplan doesn't make you an underdog, when it works it just makes you a pain in the arse for the opposition. 

I agree that the style of play could and should be better but we aren't pretending to be the underdogs against Burton, Stevenage etc. we're just playing poorly and not doing a lot of the basics right a lot of the time. 

agim

I'm sick of getting rid of managers so I'm Jones in for now but saying that I've been really disappointed with the way he's got us playing and some of his decisions. Saying that I've never really looked into his philosophy at previous clubs so maybe this is how he always sets up? Regardless of the good transfer window chat from him in the summer we all know that managing Charlton during the transfer window you've always got one arm tied behind your back with funds etc so I'm guessing not all the players we brought in would of been his first choice. I understand why he's brought in players he knows and trusts, lots of managers do it but i think maybe he underestimated this league slightly and the impact these "higher level" players will have

thenewbie

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

I don't think they are not trying as such but I do think they are trying to use a fundamentally flawed method. Jones' whole MO puts far too much emphasis on the first goal scored, especially when we concede that goal more often than we score it.

The players don't seem to enjoy it or believe in it much either which isn't helping.

fenaddick

thenewbie said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

I don't think they are not trying as such but I do think they are trying to use a fundamentally flawed method. Jones' whole MO puts far too much emphasis on the first goal scored, especially when we concede that goal more often than we score it.

The players don't seem to enjoy it or believe in it much either which isn't helping.

That's a totally different argument to what Paul said though. That's saying the way they're trying to win is flawed which is an understandable statement to have.

I think footballers are a fairly fickle bunch, if we start winning again they'll be happy and believe more 

Radostanradical

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.

All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.

Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.

Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this  perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides

Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league. 

I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making. 

Chris_from_Sidcup

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

If we do not end up in the play-offs come the end of the season this will be seen as failure.

I can understand many people thinking that but personally given where we were when Jones took over and where we finished last season, i don't think it's necessarily fair to say not making the play offs would be a failure. Expecting a side that was on the verge of relegation to be in the play offs 15 months later is a big step up.

We finished 16th, miles off the play offs and won fewer games than any side that wasn't relegated. For me if we were to finish say 8/9/10th and were playing decent football (we are not) and there was hope that with another summer window we'd progress further then i don't think i'd class that as Jones 'failing' at his job.

YannTheMann

fenaddick said:

daveydanger said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Possibly a bit of an exaggeration to say Jones doesn’t try to win, but I’d put it like this: he sets us up as the underdog, in every game, regardless of opposition. Completely focussed on mitigating the other side.

When we actually are the underdog, it sort of works. When we aren’t - the whole thing falls flat.

You hear it in his talking points time and again. He never dwells on our ability to create chances or craft something it’s -  disrupt, chase, be physical, don’t concede, “front footed”… and in distant last place, maybe nick a goal.

Yes it’s a bit big time Charlie of me - but sod it - I expect us to show up at half the tinpot teams in this league as the bigger fish, a little bit feared, the favourites with the large budget… not donning tin hats against Burton Albion. 

In what world is having 24 shots, 4 big chances, 7 corners and only 3 outfield players average position being in your own half "donning the tin hat?"

I also disagree he sets us up as the underdog. Aiming to disrupt someone's gameplan doesn't make you an underdog, when it works it just makes you a pain in the arse for the opposition. 

I agree that the style of play could and should be better but we aren't pretending to be the underdogs against Burton, Stevenage etc. we're just playing poorly and not doing a lot of the basics right a lot of the time. 

God willing, we've had 2 stonewall penalties in that game because we've been so positive and front footed 

Croydon

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

If we do not end up in the play-offs come the end of the season this will be seen as failure.

I can understand many people thinking that but personally given where we were when Jones took over and where we finished last season, i don't think it's necessarily fair to say not making the play offs would be a failure. Expecting a side that was on the verge of relegation to be in the play offs 15 months later is a big step up.

We finished 16th, miles off the play offs and won fewer games than any side that wasn't relegated. For me if we were to finish say 8/9/10th and were playing decent football (we are not) and there was hope that with another summer window we'd progress further then i don't think i'd class that as Jones 'failing' at his job.

I get what you're saying, but anything less than promotion should be seen as a failure. Not making the play offs is criminal - especially with the level of budget we have supposedly used. 

NabySarr

Croydon said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

If we do not end up in the play-offs come the end of the season this will be seen as failure.

I can understand many people thinking that but personally given where we were when Jones took over and where we finished last season, i don't think it's necessarily fair to say not making the play offs would be a failure. Expecting a side that was on the verge of relegation to be in the play offs 15 months later is a big step up.

We finished 16th, miles off the play offs and won fewer games than any side that wasn't relegated. For me if we were to finish say 8/9/10th and were playing decent football (we are not) and there was hope that with another summer window we'd progress further then i don't think i'd class that as Jones 'failing' at his job.

I get what you're saying, but anything less than promotion should be seen as a failure. Not making the play offs is criminal - especially with the level of budget we have supposedly used. 

We need to make progress, if we do that and finish just outside the top 6, then although technically a failure, it will still be a decent season that sets us up for next season. If we progress and get better then we will ready to go up next season. The worrying signs at the moment are that we haven’t really progressed 

Improving from 16th to top 6 is a huge jump, it is possible (Oxford did it last season) but for me as long as there is some good progress from last season then it isn’t a failure 

Chris_from_Sidcup

Croydon said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

If we do not end up in the play-offs come the end of the season this will be seen as failure.

I can understand many people thinking that but personally given where we were when Jones took over and where we finished last season, i don't think it's necessarily fair to say not making the play offs would be a failure. Expecting a side that was on the verge of relegation to be in the play offs 15 months later is a big step up.

We finished 16th, miles off the play offs and won fewer games than any side that wasn't relegated. For me if we were to finish say 8/9/10th and were playing decent football (we are not) and there was hope that with another summer window we'd progress further then i don't think i'd class that as Jones 'failing' at his job.

I get what you're saying, but anything less than promotion should be seen as a failure. Not making the play offs is criminal - especially with the level of budget we have supposedly used. 

I can't really argue with that but my point is that at a minimum we as fans want to see some progression. Finishing 8/9/10th playing decent football with a clear aim to mount a serious push in 25-26 would be a sign of improvement on last season. Jones signed up for a long term 'project' not a 15 month project, so if there was progression i think most fans would be understanding.

But right now there is absolutely none of that and we are just treading water.

Radostanradical

Croydon said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

If we do not end up in the play-offs come the end of the season this will be seen as failure.

I can understand many people thinking that but personally given where we were when Jones took over and where we finished last season, i don't think it's necessarily fair to say not making the play offs would be a failure. Expecting a side that was on the verge of relegation to be in the play offs 15 months later is a big step up.

We finished 16th, miles off the play offs and won fewer games than any side that wasn't relegated. For me if we were to finish say 8/9/10th and were playing decent football (we are not) and there was hope that with another summer window we'd progress further then i don't think i'd class that as Jones 'failing' at his job.

I get what you're saying, but anything less than promotion should be seen as a failure. Not making the play offs is criminal - especially with the level of budget we have supposedly used. 

Why would anything other than promotion be a failure when there are teams with bigger budgets, bigger clubs with better players. We do not have a god given right to success.

thenewbie

fenaddick said:

thenewbie said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

I don't think they are not trying as such but I do think they are trying to use a fundamentally flawed method. Jones' whole MO puts far too much emphasis on the first goal scored, especially when we concede that goal more often than we score it.

The players don't seem to enjoy it or believe in it much either which isn't helping.

That's a totally different argument to what Paul said though. That's saying the way they're trying to win is flawed which is an understandable statement to have.

I think footballers are a fairly fickle bunch, if we start winning again they'll be happy and believe more 

Yes it is, as I don't agree that they are not trying. I  think they ARE trying... but they are trying to do something that has been proven not to work. And I ALSO don't agree with Callum's position that it might end up working in the end.

My position is in-between - that Jones and the players could theoretically turn things around but it requires a change of approach (which I personally doubt Jones is willing to countenance.)

CAN we still have relative success with this squad, yes we could. WILL we? On current evidence, no we won't.

paulsturgess

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Such a stupid literal comment.  

They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way. 

If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.

Ducktapeshoerepairs

Elthamaddick said:

why don't we just swap managers

I think most people would take that from both sides 

Six-a-bag-of-nuts

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.

All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.

Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.

Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this  perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides

Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league. 

I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making. 

You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL

fenaddick

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Such a stupid literal comment.  

They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way. 

If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.

You can’t backtrack when someone reads your words back to you, maybe you didn’t mean them that way but it’s a written forum so that’s how they’ll come across. 

I don’t agree with your assessment either, the tactic is with the aim of winning it just isn’t working 

ShootersHillGuru

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

If we do not end up in the play-offs come the end of the season this will be seen as failure.

I can understand many people thinking that but personally given where we were when Jones took over and where we finished last season, i don't think it's necessarily fair to say not making the play offs would be a failure. Expecting a side that was on the verge of relegation to be in the play offs 15 months later is a big step up.

We finished 16th, miles off the play offs and won fewer games than any side that wasn't relegated. For me if we were to finish say 8/9/10th and were playing decent football (we are not) and there was hope that with another summer window we'd progress further then i don't think i'd class that as Jones 'failing' at his job.

I’ve always felt that this season we’d fall short. I don’t think it’s really possible to get your promotion squad together in one window. However, I’m actually shocked at how far off we actually look. I expected something like an eighth place finish but I’m afraid I just can’t see it. I thought we’d have the skeleton of our first eleven tied up in the summer and we’d tweak in January and build on the core next summer. Looks to me like we’ll be needing to start the build process over next summer because what we have isn’t anything like good enough. That’s also not taking into consideration the damned awful football being served up by Jones. I’m far from confident for next season already.

Braziliance

I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that. 

Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result. 

Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.

Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc. 

If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability. 

I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home. 

Braziliance

Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan. 

It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.

fenaddick

Braziliance said:

Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan. 

It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.

Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around". 

Braziliance

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan. 

It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.

Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around". 

Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way. 

All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.

Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.

The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat. 

If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.

Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basics

Radostanradical

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.

All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.

Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.

Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this  perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides

Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league. 

I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making. 

You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL

I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ? 

Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"

I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it. 

Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.

fenaddick

Braziliance said:

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan. 

It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.

Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around". 

Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way. 

All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.

Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.

The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat. 

If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.

Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basics

I would say we're attempting to play in a similar style to Wrexham just not executing it well enough at all

Radostanradical

Braziliance said:

I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that. 

Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result. 

Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.

Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc. 

If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability. 

I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home. 

Because they are bottom of the table and only have 8 points and it wasn't ugly we were terrible. You know full well that isn't the point people are making. The point is if we were consistently winning matches people wouldn't mind the the style of football that achieves results.

ShootersHillGuru

Plenty of times under Curbs when we struggled to get a result and when we were on a bad run Curbs would insist on going back to basics, keep it narrow and grind out something. He had a plan and it worked. He wasn’t rigid when we were playing well but reverted to it when needed. He was a pragmatist. It strikes me that Jones has one way and either can’t or won’t move away from it despite results. Either supremely confident in his methods or stubborn to the point of stupidity. Thing is, I don’t see this as us being on a bad run. Were just really crap.

Braziliance

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan. 

It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.

Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around". 

Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way. 

All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.

Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.

The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat. 

If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.

Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basics

I would say we're attempting to play in a similar style to Wrexham just not executing it well enough at all

And that, is exactly my issue. Why are we trying to play like Wrexham. 

It's all context, they have to play that way, as they've just been promoted and have a largely league 2 squad they'll need to upgrade. Not to mention a manager we should have outgrown a long time ago. 

We have been in this league for however long, have a more expensive squad and a manager with a better pedigree more recently. Why would we want to see us play like a newly promoted side when we are not.

I of course understand you mean their style, but I think we are two clubs who should be in different situations. We wouldn't be able to do what they're doing cause they're a club with a lot of belief atm, I don't think we could replicate what they're doing at all 

Braziliance

Radostanradical said:

Braziliance said:

I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that. 

Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result. 

Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.

Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc. 

If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability. 

I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home. 

Because they are bottom of the table and only have 8 points and it wasn't ugly we were terrible. You know full well that isn't the point people are making. The point is if we were consistently winning matches people wouldn't mind the the style of football that achieves results.

No I actually don't know full well, because I can't understand how people keep saying ''if we were winning matches with this style you wouldn't care" as that's literally impossible, as no team ever had won anything with how we are playing.

If you went to any other sport and said right, play this s**t style, that doesn't entertain fans, and doesn't create enough chances on average to win what kind of reaction would you get? 

There isn't a style, even our own manager alludes to that every other presser by saying "we aren't getting the basics right". If you can't get your team to function and do the simple stuff, how can there be a style.

No team has ever got promotion from this league playing this 'style' as it is simply not a style. It's a confused mixture of s**t. It's barely jack of all trades and absolutely master of none football.