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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
Comments
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We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO3
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It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off11 -
If owners concentrated more on spending their money on buying good players, rather than paying off managers, then we might start making some progress.1
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Holden should never have been given the job in the first place. Jackson should have been persevered with.paulsturgess said:
I would have been fine sticking with Jacko or Holden.hezzla said:
I understand why a lot of people think this, and the football is truly hard to watch right now, but the trouble I have is that it's the same argument that gets aired whenever we go through a bad spell with any manager.paulsturgess said:
Agree with this sentiment but Jones isn’t the one to commit to.hezzla said:Since January 2021, only 1 Charlton manager has been in post for 2 consecutive transfer windows (Dean Holden, and even he had 2 different ownership groups to deal with). In the last 3 windows, 3 different managers have gone out and recruited entirely different profiles of player.
I don't know if Jones is the right answer any more, but I honestly believe that the constant changing of manager and recruitment strategy is doing more damage than any amount of hoof-ball tactics.
Jackson, Adkins, Garner, Holden, Appleton were also "not the right ones" to commit to. The experienced managers like Adkins were 'past it' or 'living off former glories', the young ones like Garner were 'naive' or 'unproven at the level'. Appleton didn't care enough, Jones can't control his emotions. They're either too stubborn to change their tactics, or they switch things up and get accused of not knowing their best XI.
There always seems to be a reason why it won't work, and always this implicit belief that a new manager with different strengths (and weaknesses) will bring the best out of this club. But when it comes to speculating on who that manager should be, there is zero alignment across the fanbase on what we all want.
I sometimes wonder if the reason why we only seem to do well with club legends in charge is because they're the only people with enough credit in the bank to avoid getting sacked when the team goes through its inevitable troughs in performance.17 -
NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.2 -
So what happens if we draw on Saturday? Give him more time? Even a win won’t change things for me. He should be out now.7
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A bit like me, it's not working.Arsenetatters said:So what happens if we draw on Saturday? Give him more time? Even a win won’t change things for me. He should be out now.6 -
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.4 -
Genuinely, what a ridiculous comment, and completely offensive.SantaClaus said:
The most athletic/explosive players are disproportionately black African/Caribbean. Is that really something that can't be noted when it's screamingly obvious to anyone who watches football from primary school level upwards? It was certainly something that stood out during our recent humiliation against Crawley.Braziliance said:
I'm sorry, white? Why has that been mentioned, what's the relevanceGisappointed said:Jones keeps prompting 'athleticism' as a requirement from his players, but they are anything but; midfield is white, short-arsed and slow. Potts is not an athlete despite being a reasonable player. Neither is REG who I'm sure would have been sanctioned by NJ despite signing prior. Godden is not an athlete. Ahadme must be the slowest striker in L1.
A derogatory comment aimed at any race is unacceptable. There are athletic players from all backgrounds at every level in the footballing pyramid. Our players ethnicity has fuck all to do with why we are shit.
Just don't see the need to comment on race when it's completely irrelevant to the topic. The OP posting has either made a racial remark, or, is a self-loathing white. One being completely unacceptable, the latter being outright bloody weird.
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Get out the F**king spoons and get a job !!!!!ElfsborgAddick said:
A bit like me, it's not working.Arsenetatters said:So what happens if we draw on Saturday? Give him more time? Even a win won’t change things for me. He should be out now.
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I can't believe how good that free A.I. is on twitter.
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The initial comment seemed a little clumsy but it was pretty innocuous. The follow up asked why race was relevant which is what I was addressing I don't think I said anything controversial and genuinely think your reaction is over the top.Brazilians said:
Genuinely, what a ridiculous comment, and completely offensive.SantaClaus said:
The most athletic/explosive players are disproportionately black African/Caribbean. Is that really something that can't be noted when it's screamingly obvious to anyone who watches football from primary school level upwards? It was certainly something that stood out during our recent humiliation against Crawley.Braziliance said:
I'm sorry, white? Why has that been mentioned, what's the relevanceGisappointed said:Jones keeps prompting 'athleticism' as a requirement from his players, but they are anything but; midfield is white, short-arsed and slow. Potts is not an athlete despite being a reasonable player. Neither is REG who I'm sure would have been sanctioned by NJ despite signing prior. Godden is not an athlete. Ahadme must be the slowest striker in L1.
A derogatory comment aimed at any race is unacceptable. There are athletic players from all backgrounds at every level in the footballing pyramid. Our players ethnicity has fuck all to do with why we are shit.
Just don't see the need to comment on race when it's completely irrelevant to the topic. The OP posting has either made a racial remark, or, is a self-loathing white. One being completely unacceptable, the latter being outright bloody weird.1 -
I suspect that quite a few players would like nothing more than to play a different style of football.NabySarr said:
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.0 -
Spouting more nonsense at the presser today, including about xG and...lime bikes!1
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He really does look like the love-child of David Tennant and Michael SheenBraziliance said:I can't believe how good that free A.I. is on twitter.3 -
Jackson was set up to fail. He was given an almost impossible target to keep his job and was supposed to achieve it with attractive football while being unsupported in the transfer market. Bloke never had a chance. I'm not at all sure he'd have taken us up the following season even with a half decent budget, but I'm pretty confident he'd be better than the procession of strolling underachievers we've had since.16
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Love supporting CJAALION WEHBraziliance said:I can't believe how good that free A.I. is on twitter.11 -
Probably, but it wouldn’t have worked, as by that point Sandgaard decided he wanted a tippy tappy style and they’d have disagreed over potential signings.ElfsborgAddick said:
Holden should never have been given the job in the first place. Jackson should have been persevered with.paulsturgess said:
I would have been fine sticking with Jacko or Holden.hezzla said:
I understand why a lot of people think this, and the football is truly hard to watch right now, but the trouble I have is that it's the same argument that gets aired whenever we go through a bad spell with any manager.paulsturgess said:
Agree with this sentiment but Jones isn’t the one to commit to.hezzla said:Since January 2021, only 1 Charlton manager has been in post for 2 consecutive transfer windows (Dean Holden, and even he had 2 different ownership groups to deal with). In the last 3 windows, 3 different managers have gone out and recruited entirely different profiles of player.
I don't know if Jones is the right answer any more, but I honestly believe that the constant changing of manager and recruitment strategy is doing more damage than any amount of hoof-ball tactics.
Jackson, Adkins, Garner, Holden, Appleton were also "not the right ones" to commit to. The experienced managers like Adkins were 'past it' or 'living off former glories', the young ones like Garner were 'naive' or 'unproven at the level'. Appleton didn't care enough, Jones can't control his emotions. They're either too stubborn to change their tactics, or they switch things up and get accused of not knowing their best XI.
There always seems to be a reason why it won't work, and always this implicit belief that a new manager with different strengths (and weaknesses) will bring the best out of this club. But when it comes to speculating on who that manager should be, there is zero alignment across the fanbase on what we all want.
I sometimes wonder if the reason why we only seem to do well with club legends in charge is because they're the only people with enough credit in the bank to avoid getting sacked when the team goes through its inevitable troughs in performance.0 -
One advantage this time is that the players dont fit into the Jones system so trying a different one isn't quite the problem it would have been. The problem is more finding a system in which a group of midfielders with almost identical mid range skills and no real creativity can be moulded into an attacking force to be feared.NabySarr said:
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.
Overall I agree with those who look past Jones. I cannot see Jones getting any better and he seems to have some really didgy ideas in his locker as well as a pig headed refusal to change. But the overrriding problem seems to be the recruitment. Someone posted a list of all the players we have off loaded in the last few years, and the vast majority are playing at a lower level than ourselves, which suggests an ongoing failure by whoever is doing the scouting. If this is Scott, he at least should be moved out before january and we should be looking at developing a better recruitment personel.
As for Jones, I think he's a busted flush now. Getting outplayed at home by Crawley and Orient successively says a lot about where we are and we need to change at some point, but how many managerts would fancy the gig is a real problem. The halt, the sick and the lame.5 -
Most of our players have been bought to play Jones style of high intensity direct football. We aren’t playing it well at all and it is quite often not even evident that we are trying it. But you can’t then just expect the same players to play a different style that doesn’t suit them. If we get a new manager Alex Mitchell isn’t suddenly going to be able to play it out from back, Ahadme isn’t suddenly going to be able to control a pass into his feet and lay it off to a team mate. We’d still only have 1 winger and that winger doesn’t have a good enough end productken_shabby said:
One advantage this time is that the players dont fit into the Jones system so trying a different one isn't quite the problem it would have been. The problem is more finding a system in which a group of midfielders with almost identical mid range skills and no real creativity can be moulded into an attacking force to be feared.NabySarr said:
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.
Overall I agree with those who look past Jones. I cannot see Jones getting any better and he seems to have some really didgy ideas in his locker as well as a pig headed refusal to change. But the overrriding problem seems to be the recruitment. Someone posted a list of all the players we have off loaded in the last few years, and the vast majority are playing at a lower level than ourselves, which suggests an ongoing failure by whoever is doing the scouting. If this is Scott, he at least should be moved out before january and we should be looking at developing a better recruitment personel.
As for Jones, I think he's a busted flush now. Getting outplayed at home by Crawley and Orient successively says a lot about where we are and we need to change at some point, but how many managerts would fancy the gig is a real problem. The halt, the sick and the lame.I think Jones may need to go, I’m prepared to see if he can get a reaction on Saturday but I’m not massively confident he will. But if he does go we can’t just flip back to a completely different style. We are more likely to get relegated trying to do that mid-season with these players than we are by keeping Jones
If we go for a younger appointment that wants to completely change style and try to play nice football, with this squad it could be disastrous, especially mid-season. If Jones does go then we need to be looking at an Alex Neil, Darren Moore etc type manager0 -
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Fundamentally disagree with this.NabySarr said:
Most of our players have been bought to play Jones style of high intensity direct football. We aren’t playing it well at all and it is quite often not even evident that we are trying it. But you can’t then just expect the same players to play a different style that doesn’t suit them. If we get a new manager Alex Mitchell isn’t suddenly going to be able to play it out from back, Ahadme isn’t suddenly going to be able to control a pass into his feet and lay it off to a team mate. We’d still only have 1 winger and that winger doesn’t have a good enough end productken_shabby said:
One advantage this time is that the players dont fit into the Jones system so trying a different one isn't quite the problem it would have been. The problem is more finding a system in which a group of midfielders with almost identical mid range skills and no real creativity can be moulded into an attacking force to be feared.NabySarr said:
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.
Overall I agree with those who look past Jones. I cannot see Jones getting any better and he seems to have some really didgy ideas in his locker as well as a pig headed refusal to change. But the overrriding problem seems to be the recruitment. Someone posted a list of all the players we have off loaded in the last few years, and the vast majority are playing at a lower level than ourselves, which suggests an ongoing failure by whoever is doing the scouting. If this is Scott, he at least should be moved out before january and we should be looking at developing a better recruitment personel.
As for Jones, I think he's a busted flush now. Getting outplayed at home by Crawley and Orient successively says a lot about where we are and we need to change at some point, but how many managerts would fancy the gig is a real problem. The halt, the sick and the lame.I think Jones may need to go, I’m prepared to see if he can get a reaction on Saturday but I’m not massively confident he will. But if he does go we can’t just flip back to a completely different style. We are more likely to get relegated trying to do that mid-season with these players than we are by keeping Jones
If we go for a younger appointment that wants to completely change style and try to play nice football, with this squad it could be disastrous, especially mid-season. If Jones does go then we need to be looking at an Alex Neil, Darren Moore etc type managerWhilst I think the recruitment has been a disaster, I also think the group is much better than they have been showing and aside from the fact they’re not great, a large part of the reason for their pitiful output is the abysmal “tactics” (I struggle to even use that word as tactics to me intimates some kind of thought to opponents, in game situations and scenarios and altogether something more mindful and considered than what Jones does).The players look completely bemused now and clearly have no belief themselves in how they’re being told to execute their duties. My opinion is that a more outward looking, sensible manager could “reasonably” easily get this group delivering at least better performances and results than the relegation results, and relegated performances they have been delivering since the first couple of weeks.One of the key skills of a “manager” (everyone will recall that Jones insisted on that title to the board as opposed to the head coach role of some of his predecessors), is being able to recognise the strengths, weaknesses and abilities of the resources you do have and get the best out of them rather than stubbornly coaching them a single inflexible style.
we dont necessarily want or need a philosophy tiki taka football coach who plays pretty football. We just need somebody who has the above ability, the mindset to play both attacking (can be direct at times) and ugly / defensive football where the situation requires and, crucially, actually tries to win football matches by controlling them in some form and create moments of football which endanger our opponents.What we definitely don’t want is a manager who actively wants the opposition to have the ball in the hope of them making a mistake and that is his sole plan come rain or shine, hailstones or heat warnings.Powell’s teams were often direct and also often robust when needed. But it was flexible, attempted to work with the strengths of the resources we had; you’ve got Kermogant, so sign and play direct wingers. We now have Ahadme… and we don’t have a winger in our squad (well, just the one, but let’s play him centre forward instead).
We might well end up beating Mansfield on Saturday. But Jones ain’t for the future, he needs to go.12 -
So you don’t fundamentally disagree at all then. The point I was making was that people have been calling for a younger manager that plays attractive football, but I think that could be disastrous and we instead need a more pragmatic manager like an Alex Neil or a Darren Moore if we are to get rid of Jonespaulsturgess said:
Fundamentally disagree with this.NabySarr said:
Most of our players have been bought to play Jones style of high intensity direct football. We aren’t playing it well at all and it is quite often not even evident that we are trying it. But you can’t then just expect the same players to play a different style that doesn’t suit them. If we get a new manager Alex Mitchell isn’t suddenly going to be able to play it out from back, Ahadme isn’t suddenly going to be able to control a pass into his feet and lay it off to a team mate. We’d still only have 1 winger and that winger doesn’t have a good enough end productken_shabby said:
One advantage this time is that the players dont fit into the Jones system so trying a different one isn't quite the problem it would have been. The problem is more finding a system in which a group of midfielders with almost identical mid range skills and no real creativity can be moulded into an attacking force to be feared.NabySarr said:
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.
Overall I agree with those who look past Jones. I cannot see Jones getting any better and he seems to have some really didgy ideas in his locker as well as a pig headed refusal to change. But the overrriding problem seems to be the recruitment. Someone posted a list of all the players we have off loaded in the last few years, and the vast majority are playing at a lower level than ourselves, which suggests an ongoing failure by whoever is doing the scouting. If this is Scott, he at least should be moved out before january and we should be looking at developing a better recruitment personel.
As for Jones, I think he's a busted flush now. Getting outplayed at home by Crawley and Orient successively says a lot about where we are and we need to change at some point, but how many managerts would fancy the gig is a real problem. The halt, the sick and the lame.I think Jones may need to go, I’m prepared to see if he can get a reaction on Saturday but I’m not massively confident he will. But if he does go we can’t just flip back to a completely different style. We are more likely to get relegated trying to do that mid-season with these players than we are by keeping Jones
If we go for a younger appointment that wants to completely change style and try to play nice football, with this squad it could be disastrous, especially mid-season. If Jones does go then we need to be looking at an Alex Neil, Darren Moore etc type managerWhilst I think the recruitment has been a disaster, I also think the group is much better than they have been showing and aside from the fact they’re not great, a large part of the reason for their pitiful output is the abysmal “tactics” (I struggle to even use that word as tactics to me intimates some kind of thought to opponents, in game situations and scenarios and altogether something more mindful and considered than what Jones does).The players look completely bemused now and clearly have no belief themselves in how they’re being told to execute their duties. My opinion is that a more outward looking, sensible manager could “reasonably” easily get this group delivering at least better performances and results than the relegation results, and relegated performances they have been delivering since the first couple of weeks.One of the key skills of a “manager” (everyone will recall that Jones insisted on that title to the board as opposed to the head coach role of some of his predecessors), is being able to recognise the strengths, weaknesses and abilities of the resources you do have and get the best out of them rather than stubbornly coaching them a single inflexible style.
we dont necessarily want or need a philosophy tiki taka football coach who plays pretty football. We just need somebody who has the above ability, the mindset to play both attacking (can be direct at times) and ugly / defensive football where the situation requires and, crucially, actually tries to win football matches by controlling them in some form and create moments of football which endanger our opponents.What we definitely don’t want is a manager who actively wants the opposition to have the ball in the hope of them making a mistake and that is his sole plan come rain or shine, hailstones or heat warnings.Powell’s teams were often direct and also often robust when needed. But it was flexible, attempted to work with the strengths of the resources we had; you’ve got Kermogant, so sign and play direct wingers. We now have Ahadme… and we don’t have a winger in our squad (well, just the one, but let’s play him centre forward instead).
We might well end up beating Mansfield on Saturday. But Jones ain’t for the future, he needs to go.I’m not sure another manager would get better results. How good do you think this squad is? For me it’s a top half league 1 squad, the hope at the start of the season was that Jones would be a good enough manager to over-achieve with it and get in the play offs. We’ve had some key players out injured so are now down to 12th, not great obviously, but without the injuries we’d probably be around where our squad should be0 -
A lot of the expectations around us at the start of the season wasn’t due to the strength of our squad, it was because we had Jones as manager that people were tipping us for the top 6. People were expecting him to over-achieve, instead he has slightly underachieved
This squad is probably a top 10 squad for this league. We’ve had injuries, and that has definitely cost us points. So we are now 12th. Without as many injuries we’d probably be around about where this squad should be. The football is dire but results-wise I think people are making it out to be a lot worse than it is1 -
Sorry - should’ve clarified realise thst was a little unclear.NabySarr said:
So you don’t fundamentally disagree at all then. The point I was making was that people have been calling for a younger manager that plays attractive football, but I think that could be disastrous and we instead need a more pragmatic manager like an Alex Neil or a Darren Moore if we are to get rid of Jonespaulsturgess said:
Fundamentally disagree with this.NabySarr said:
Most of our players have been bought to play Jones style of high intensity direct football. We aren’t playing it well at all and it is quite often not even evident that we are trying it. But you can’t then just expect the same players to play a different style that doesn’t suit them. If we get a new manager Alex Mitchell isn’t suddenly going to be able to play it out from back, Ahadme isn’t suddenly going to be able to control a pass into his feet and lay it off to a team mate. We’d still only have 1 winger and that winger doesn’t have a good enough end productken_shabby said:
One advantage this time is that the players dont fit into the Jones system so trying a different one isn't quite the problem it would have been. The problem is more finding a system in which a group of midfielders with almost identical mid range skills and no real creativity can be moulded into an attacking force to be feared.NabySarr said:
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.
Overall I agree with those who look past Jones. I cannot see Jones getting any better and he seems to have some really didgy ideas in his locker as well as a pig headed refusal to change. But the overrriding problem seems to be the recruitment. Someone posted a list of all the players we have off loaded in the last few years, and the vast majority are playing at a lower level than ourselves, which suggests an ongoing failure by whoever is doing the scouting. If this is Scott, he at least should be moved out before january and we should be looking at developing a better recruitment personel.
As for Jones, I think he's a busted flush now. Getting outplayed at home by Crawley and Orient successively says a lot about where we are and we need to change at some point, but how many managerts would fancy the gig is a real problem. The halt, the sick and the lame.I think Jones may need to go, I’m prepared to see if he can get a reaction on Saturday but I’m not massively confident he will. But if he does go we can’t just flip back to a completely different style. We are more likely to get relegated trying to do that mid-season with these players than we are by keeping Jones
If we go for a younger appointment that wants to completely change style and try to play nice football, with this squad it could be disastrous, especially mid-season. If Jones does go then we need to be looking at an Alex Neil, Darren Moore etc type managerWhilst I think the recruitment has been a disaster, I also think the group is much better than they have been showing and aside from the fact they’re not great, a large part of the reason for their pitiful output is the abysmal “tactics” (I struggle to even use that word as tactics to me intimates some kind of thought to opponents, in game situations and scenarios and altogether something more mindful and considered than what Jones does).The players look completely bemused now and clearly have no belief themselves in how they’re being told to execute their duties. My opinion is that a more outward looking, sensible manager could “reasonably” easily get this group delivering at least better performances and results than the relegation results, and relegated performances they have been delivering since the first couple of weeks.One of the key skills of a “manager” (everyone will recall that Jones insisted on that title to the board as opposed to the head coach role of some of his predecessors), is being able to recognise the strengths, weaknesses and abilities of the resources you do have and get the best out of them rather than stubbornly coaching them a single inflexible style.
we dont necessarily want or need a philosophy tiki taka football coach who plays pretty football. We just need somebody who has the above ability, the mindset to play both attacking (can be direct at times) and ugly / defensive football where the situation requires and, crucially, actually tries to win football matches by controlling them in some form and create moments of football which endanger our opponents.What we definitely don’t want is a manager who actively wants the opposition to have the ball in the hope of them making a mistake and that is his sole plan come rain or shine, hailstones or heat warnings.Powell’s teams were often direct and also often robust when needed. But it was flexible, attempted to work with the strengths of the resources we had; you’ve got Kermogant, so sign and play direct wingers. We now have Ahadme… and we don’t have a winger in our squad (well, just the one, but let’s play him centre forward instead).
We might well end up beating Mansfield on Saturday. But Jones ain’t for the future, he needs to go.I’m not sure another manager would get better results. How good do you think this squad is? For me it’s a top half league 1 squad, the hope at the start of the season was that Jones would be a good enough manager to over-achieve with it and get in the play offs. We’ve had some key players out injured so are now down to 12th, not great obviously, but without the injuries we’d probably be around where our squad should beFundamentally disagreed with the bits about not playing a different style with these players, they have been bought to play his style and we’re more likely to get relegated trying something else / we need a robust manager for this group.
they Can’t play his style which is why we are in catastrophic relegation form for the last 3 months.I agree, the squad should certainly be capable of 7-12 with any vaguely adept manager and any attempt to win matches
the style is wrong, the manager is wrong
Change both and we shouldn’t be anywhere near relegation
the manager doesn’t need to play robust football they just need to be able to understand and respond to the players abilities / qualities3 -
Is that not just accepting mediocrity? The squad isn't supposed to be a 'top 10' squad. It's supposedly built on a top four budget, so at the moment we are dramatically underperforming.NabySarr said:A lot of the expectations around us at the start of the season wasn’t due to the strength of our squad, it was because we had Jones as manager that people were tipping us for the top 6. People were expecting him to over-achieve, instead he has slightly underachieved
This squad is probably a top 10 squad for this league. We’ve had injuries, and that has definitely cost us points. So we are now 12th. Without as many injuries we’d probably be around about where this squad should be. The football is dire but results-wise I think people are making it out to be a lot worse than it is
The only reason you can say it's top 10 or worse is because the recruitment was so poor. But we shouldn't just accept that.
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Going from 16th to top 6 isn’t a quick and easy fix. The recruitment was poor, and it has been for ages, we shouldn’t just accept that. I’m not sure sacking another manager solves that though, maybe they gave Jones too much power in the summer (though I seem to remember a lot of fans calling for that kind of set up). What we need is a complete overhaul on recruitment, starting with Andy Scott’s removal.Chunes said:
Is that not just accepting mediocrity? The squad isn't supposed to be a 'top 10' squad. It's supposedly built on a top four budget, so at the moment we are dramatically underperforming.NabySarr said:A lot of the expectations around us at the start of the season wasn’t due to the strength of our squad, it was because we had Jones as manager that people were tipping us for the top 6. People were expecting him to over-achieve, instead he has slightly underachieved
This squad is probably a top 10 squad for this league. We’ve had injuries, and that has definitely cost us points. So we are now 12th. Without as many injuries we’d probably be around about where this squad should be. The football is dire but results-wise I think people are making it out to be a lot worse than it is
The only reason you can say it's top 10 or worse is because the recruitment was so poor. But we shouldn't just accept that.Sacking Jones might be the right thing to do, but it will make no difference to our long term success unless the recruitment setup is completely re-done2 -
I’m not sure the top 4 budget is a stick you can beat Jones with. REG, Gillesphey, Aneke, Edun, Watson. That’s 5 players eating up quite a bit of that top 4 budget. All will be on good money as they were signed to be top players at this level, and they were all here before Jones was
Jones has added some poor players to this list himself. Ahadme and Docherty the big ones because of their contracts meaning we are probably stuck with them like we’ve been stuck with many over the past few years. The rest of his poor signings we aren’t tied down too. But he has also brought us Ramsay, Edwards, Small, Mannion, Godden, A.Mitchell that are good signings
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We are 12th though, and that’s with the injuries we’ve had recently. Without those we’d probably be just about where this squad should be, around 8th-10thpaulsturgess said:
Sorry - should’ve clarified realise thst was a little unclear.NabySarr said:
So you don’t fundamentally disagree at all then. The point I was making was that people have been calling for a younger manager that plays attractive football, but I think that could be disastrous and we instead need a more pragmatic manager like an Alex Neil or a Darren Moore if we are to get rid of Jonespaulsturgess said:
Fundamentally disagree with this.NabySarr said:
Most of our players have been bought to play Jones style of high intensity direct football. We aren’t playing it well at all and it is quite often not even evident that we are trying it. But you can’t then just expect the same players to play a different style that doesn’t suit them. If we get a new manager Alex Mitchell isn’t suddenly going to be able to play it out from back, Ahadme isn’t suddenly going to be able to control a pass into his feet and lay it off to a team mate. We’d still only have 1 winger and that winger doesn’t have a good enough end productken_shabby said:
One advantage this time is that the players dont fit into the Jones system so trying a different one isn't quite the problem it would have been. The problem is more finding a system in which a group of midfielders with almost identical mid range skills and no real creativity can be moulded into an attacking force to be feared.NabySarr said:
Which is why we need to stick with a manager and/or style. I’d rather not get rid of Jones, but if it does need to happen we will probably be stupid again and jump to a completely different style of football with a manager that will want to rid of most of the squad (which won’t be possible) and we go round the cycle againMarcusH26 said:NabySarr said:
It’s due to poor spending of money. Our budget hasn’t really been a problem other than in 2022/23 when Sandgaard had given up. I suspect that would have been our lowest budget of recent times and we actually finished higher up the leagueRedhenry said:We haven't had good enough players or Managers for a while now. It's mostly down to money IMHO
Poor recruitment is our problem, until that changes we are just going to keep cycling through managers that get an initial performance bounce but then trail off
I just look at the players we've signed for what most people would count as significant fees for this league over the past few years and barely any of them have been a success.
Recruitment needs to be significantly overhauled and I wouldn't trust another transfer window to Andy Scott.
Whoever replaces Jones will have to try and get a tune out of basically the same squad with a couple of January window signings of their choosing and then we'll be sitting here in the summer making another 8-10 signings because the new manager wants their own players.
Feels like a never ending merry-go-round of poor recruitment leading to poor results.
Overall I agree with those who look past Jones. I cannot see Jones getting any better and he seems to have some really didgy ideas in his locker as well as a pig headed refusal to change. But the overrriding problem seems to be the recruitment. Someone posted a list of all the players we have off loaded in the last few years, and the vast majority are playing at a lower level than ourselves, which suggests an ongoing failure by whoever is doing the scouting. If this is Scott, he at least should be moved out before january and we should be looking at developing a better recruitment personel.
As for Jones, I think he's a busted flush now. Getting outplayed at home by Crawley and Orient successively says a lot about where we are and we need to change at some point, but how many managerts would fancy the gig is a real problem. The halt, the sick and the lame.I think Jones may need to go, I’m prepared to see if he can get a reaction on Saturday but I’m not massively confident he will. But if he does go we can’t just flip back to a completely different style. We are more likely to get relegated trying to do that mid-season with these players than we are by keeping Jones
If we go for a younger appointment that wants to completely change style and try to play nice football, with this squad it could be disastrous, especially mid-season. If Jones does go then we need to be looking at an Alex Neil, Darren Moore etc type managerWhilst I think the recruitment has been a disaster, I also think the group is much better than they have been showing and aside from the fact they’re not great, a large part of the reason for their pitiful output is the abysmal “tactics” (I struggle to even use that word as tactics to me intimates some kind of thought to opponents, in game situations and scenarios and altogether something more mindful and considered than what Jones does).The players look completely bemused now and clearly have no belief themselves in how they’re being told to execute their duties. My opinion is that a more outward looking, sensible manager could “reasonably” easily get this group delivering at least better performances and results than the relegation results, and relegated performances they have been delivering since the first couple of weeks.One of the key skills of a “manager” (everyone will recall that Jones insisted on that title to the board as opposed to the head coach role of some of his predecessors), is being able to recognise the strengths, weaknesses and abilities of the resources you do have and get the best out of them rather than stubbornly coaching them a single inflexible style.
we dont necessarily want or need a philosophy tiki taka football coach who plays pretty football. We just need somebody who has the above ability, the mindset to play both attacking (can be direct at times) and ugly / defensive football where the situation requires and, crucially, actually tries to win football matches by controlling them in some form and create moments of football which endanger our opponents.What we definitely don’t want is a manager who actively wants the opposition to have the ball in the hope of them making a mistake and that is his sole plan come rain or shine, hailstones or heat warnings.Powell’s teams were often direct and also often robust when needed. But it was flexible, attempted to work with the strengths of the resources we had; you’ve got Kermogant, so sign and play direct wingers. We now have Ahadme… and we don’t have a winger in our squad (well, just the one, but let’s play him centre forward instead).
We might well end up beating Mansfield on Saturday. But Jones ain’t for the future, he needs to go.I’m not sure another manager would get better results. How good do you think this squad is? For me it’s a top half league 1 squad, the hope at the start of the season was that Jones would be a good enough manager to over-achieve with it and get in the play offs. We’ve had some key players out injured so are now down to 12th, not great obviously, but without the injuries we’d probably be around where our squad should beFundamentally disagreed with the bits about not playing a different style with these players, they have been bought to play his style and we’re more likely to get relegated trying something else / we need a robust manager for this group.
they Can’t play his style which is why we are in catastrophic relegation form for the last 3 months.I agree, the squad should certainly be capable of 7-12 with any vaguely adept manager and any attempt to win matches
the style is wrong, the manager is wrong
Change both and we shouldn’t be anywhere near relegation
the manager doesn’t need to play robust football they just need to be able to understand and respond to the players abilities / qualities
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Jones chose not to sign technical/creative midfielders and wingers though. He purposely filled the squad with defensive battling CMs. It's not surprising we're struggling when the only way we can win games is to defend better, run further and be more aggressive than the opposition.NabySarr said:I’m not sure the top 4 budget is a stick you can beat Jones with. REG, Gillesphey, Aneke, Edun, Watson. That’s 5 players eating up quite a bit of that top 4 budget. All will be on good money as they were signed to be top players at this level, and they were all here before Jones was
Jones has added some poor players to this list himself. Ahadme and Docherty the big ones because of their contracts meaning we are probably stuck with them like we’ve been stuck with many over the past few years. The rest of his poor signings we aren’t tied down too. But he has also brought us Ramsay, Edwards, Small, Mannion, Godden, A.Mitchell that are good signings8 -
NabySarr said:
Going from 16th to top 6 isn’t a quick and easy fix. The recruitment was poor, and it has been for ages, we shouldn’t just accept that. I’m not sure sacking another manager solves that though, maybe they gave Jones too much power in the summer (though I seem to remember a lot of fans calling for that kind of set up). What we need is a complete overhaul on recruitment, starting with Andy Scott’s removal.Chunes said:
Is that not just accepting mediocrity? The squad isn't supposed to be a 'top 10' squad. It's supposedly built on a top four budget, so at the moment we are dramatically underperforming.NabySarr said:A lot of the expectations around us at the start of the season wasn’t due to the strength of our squad, it was because we had Jones as manager that people were tipping us for the top 6. People were expecting him to over-achieve, instead he has slightly underachieved
This squad is probably a top 10 squad for this league. We’ve had injuries, and that has definitely cost us points. So we are now 12th. Without as many injuries we’d probably be around about where this squad should be. The football is dire but results-wise I think people are making it out to be a lot worse than it is
The only reason you can say it's top 10 or worse is because the recruitment was so poor. But we shouldn't just accept that.Sacking Jones might be the right thing to do, but it will make no difference to our long term success unless the recruitment setup is completely re-doneI'm not getting into whether Jones should be sacked or not, but I do think it's flawed to tier the squad as 'top 10 at best' and then use that as the measure for acceptable results. Yes, the squad isn't good enough, but that's largely down to the manager's recruitment decisions. The fact that the squad is limited doesn't automatically make the current performances or results acceptable.
This squad was assembled on a supposed top 4 budget, so even with recruitment issues, the expectations should be far higher than 'top 10.' Framing it this way feels like mediocrity is being normalised, and the fans frustrations are being dismissed as overreactions when they're totally legitimate.
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