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Nathan Jones on being ‘absolutely abused’ by Charlton Athletic fans
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There's an irony in a 5 page thread of people complaining because they've got offended at being called out by Nathan Jones getting offended at being called out.Callumcafc said:Why are people being so sensitive? Take it on the chin, nobody is perfect.14 -
It's what you sign up for with Nathan Jones. It's one of the things that made him successful at Luton and one of the reasons he was a massive failure at Stoke and Southampton. I don't really like him that much as a character, but there is a very simple solution to all of this - win games, get us promoted, then no one cares how much of a dick you are in the media.9
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Garrymanilow said:I think Jones shouldn’t have bothered going after the treatment after the game, but I also do think you have to consider it from his non-traumatised perspective. We’ve seen too much. For the past 17 years we’ve been an absolute basket case and it’s got progressively worse. I think we’ve had 3 good seasons in that time and even then there was weird stuff going on behind the scenes. We’re used to everything being terrible and any good moment suddenly being ripped away and some more humiliating nonsense happening to us. We now expect the absolute worst and we’re on a hair trigger. Losing 3 games in a row and not playing very well so far this season set people to 11 very quickly.If you’re Jones though, you’d be absolutely mystified. Come in to a team that hasn’t won in 12 games and is set for relegation, get results off Bolton and Pompey, finally get a win off Derby and proceed to lose only the first and last games of his season. Bring in a massively different team playing a very specific way over the summer, see the team be a little slow to adapt and have a couple of setbacks but still be very much in the promotion conversation after 10 games and get an absolute mouthful from fans. If you’ve not got nearly two decades of context for that you’d probably feel a bit put out to be fair. As far as he’s concerned we’re screaming at him for putting the heating on because he doesn’t know our entire family was killed by a radiator. He’d still do well to keep it too himself but I bet he’s perplexed. We aren’t well. We need CBT, but not the winger.
GM is correct with the mitigation and I can recommend Cognitive behavioural Therapy.
It's good to talk but not scream abuse and this is the issue.
All of the baggage listed in GM post is nothing to do with Nathan Jones per se but he has taken on the managers job at the dysfunctional Charlton Athletic and the damaged fan/critic base who has seen their team fall from 7th in the Premier to finish in the lower half of the 3rd tier over a 17 year period.
This may appear quite black and white but it's nuanced and a go between with a calm mature personality like Fanny, Henry or Covered end could soothe the fireball Nathan just a tad without him becoming an Appleton or Slade hands in pocket demeanor.
Diplomacy can work.0 -
Don’t think anyone would give two flying fucks if he came out and said a small minority of fans cnuted me off for my wanky selections and team performances recently , I’ve made the changes they requested and fair play to them it worked .7
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I seem to be in the minority but not bothered by his comments. Was much more bothered by Appleton's which were far more confrontational towards the fans, but got less reaction. I'll accept that it's a slippery slope either way and if NJ wants to togetherness then it's not really the way to go about it, but on balance I also think some of the criticism he was getting was way OTT, and riding the adrenaline from a big win, he's let it all out. Wouldn't be surprised to see some 'corrections' made in the next press conf.3
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Spot on.Covered End said:I think Jones should work on either speaking coherently on a subject matter, or saying as little as possible/nothing on the matter.
It certainly doesn't help that many of his comments/digs are deliberately veiled and not specific.
He obviously think it a good idea, but in doing so it probably has a negative effect on a whole swathe of an unitended audience.
If you've got a problem with Scott, stop dropping snidey comments in the media.
Speak to Scott and Rodwell. If it's not Scott stop hinting that it is.
If you've got a problem with certain fans, say that it's a very small minority of away fans that gestured, swore and abused me or fans behind the dug out (as possible culprits).
Don't say people at the club and Charlton fans because you've just taken a swipe at 20,000 fans when there were possibly 50 at fault.
While, of course, no one but the manager should pick the matchday team and squad and he shouldn't be coerced into picking a player he doesn't want to for whatever appropriate reason (that could include a disciplinary, naturally), it's not unreasonable for the Management to ask the Manager's about his views and treatment of individual players.
They'd be negligent not to.2 -
Except he didn't really do what people were asking him to... people were also saying he should drop Anderson & Kanu and play Terry Taylor, Thierry Small &. Miles Leaburn. He did none of those.oohaahmortimer said:Don’t think anyone would give two flying fucks if he came out and said a small minority of fans cnuted me off for my wanky selections and team performances recently , I’ve made the changes they requested and fair play to them it worked .
Go back to the match thread from Saturday and have a look at some of the reactions to the team news. Somewhat tame yes but people were still questioning him. But now we won, of course he made all the changes the fans were asking for.4 -
It was bad at the time but looking back it's quite funny. I remember when we were so short of centre backs we started playing Oshilaja there and he put in a MOTM performance against Bristol Rovers I think it was. Bowyer was asked why it had taken so long to put Deji in what was apparently his natural position and Bowyer's answer basically amounted to 'because he's shit and I'm now I'm desperate'. We had been playing Pratley there on principle but he was suspended. I also remember Bowyer absolutely having one after a loss against Blackpool. Very entertaining now it's not happeningfenaddick said:
He was quite fond of criticising players in public towards the end, didn't he have a go at Morgan about his fitness at one point too?PragueAddick said:
I don't remember that in that season, but the following seasons were a different matter, when he obviously wasn't coping with all the stuff (off as well as on the field). The interview where he hung Conor Washington out to dry was particularly excruciating.Scoham said:
I’m sure if we looked back there were probably questionable comments from Bowyer at least in his promotion season. No manager will answer every question perfectly over a long season.charlton_hero said:He's showing his naivety with those comments, after calling out Krystian Bielik for the same thing. One common denominator in the successful Powell and Bowyer seasons was fans, players and management all being united. A better manager would be looking to unite, not divide.3 -
Half way through this I found myself singing "We didn't start the fire"Garrymanilow said:
But I think that's exactly the point. He can understand up to a certain level, he might know the history and be familiar with the characters but I really do think you have to have lived it to really understand why our fanbase is always one loud noise away from a meltdown. I can still remember the feeling of having that 11/12 season and then finding out over the summer that we suddenly had no money again. I can remember the crushing slide down to League One just a few years after we were beating Liverpool in the Premier League. I remember where I was when I read that Roland had taken over, I remember the 'Roland Duchatelet doesn't understand football' thread that came soon after from a Standard Liege fan, I remember Yohann Thuram, Thomas Driesen, sacking Powell, Guy Luzon, Karel Fraeye, so so nearly Nobby Vinegar, security personnel assaulting fans while Katrien Meire smirked out of a window, the Australian done deal, 13 match winless runs, Russell Slade's patience, Matt Southall's super-duper phone, a secret transfer embargo, our best player refusing to play for us, relegation again, Chris Farnell and the other Paul Elliott, finding out a sympathetic Romanian lawyer was the only person who actually seemed to want to keep the club alive, Sandgaard's interest, a public injunction hearing, the takeover finally happening and it devolving into guitar solos, sacking loyal staff, signing cheap players and being told running a football club 'isn't that hard' as we sank to our lowest ever finishes. Good Adkins, bad Adkins, Charlie Kirk, eternal injury lists, Martin Sandgaard, Raelynn running HR illegally for some reason, Ben Garner's League Two lucky dip, the American binman's abortive takeover, the Methven wars, finally a new shadowy takeover followed by happy Holden, sad Holden, Bad Appleton's hands in his pockets and finally a new manager brought in so we don't get relegated to League Two.shine166 said:
If jones doesn't understand what we've been through, nobody will... he's hardly new to all things Charlton.Garrymanilow said:I think Jones shouldn’t have bothered going after the treatment after the game, but I also do think you have to consider it from his non-traumatised perspective. We’ve seen too much. For the past 17 years we’ve been an absolute basket case and it’s got progressively worse. I think we’ve had 3 good seasons in that time and even then there was weird stuff going on behind the scenes. We’re used to everything being terrible and any good moment suddenly being ripped away and some more humiliating nonsense happening to us. We now expect the absolute worst and we’re on a hair trigger. Losing 3 games in a row and not playing very well so far this season set people to 11 very quickly.If you’re Jones though, you’d be absolutely mystified. Come in to a team that hasn’t won in 12 games and is set for relegation, get results off Bolton and Pompey, finally get a win off Derby and proceed to lose only the first and last games of his season. Bring in a massively different team playing a very specific way over the summer, see the team be a little slow to adapt and have a couple of setbacks but still be very much in the promotion conversation after 10 games and get an absolute mouthful from fans. If you’ve not got nearly two decades of context for that you’d probably feel a bit put out to be fair. As far as he’s concerned we’re screaming at him for putting the heating on because he doesn’t know our entire family was killed by a radiator. He’d still do well to keep it too himself but I bet he’s perplexed. We aren’t well. We need CBT, but not the winger.
Half of that doesn't make sense to me and I lived it! I've likely missed some absolutely insane stuff that I've blocked out as well. You're exactly right, unless one of us takes over the manager's job I don't think there's anyone on earth who can honestly understand why we're the way we are. I think it might have ruined my life.
(Great post btw)
Edit - SD Addick beat me to it2 -
NJ is crazily passionate about giving everything to managing a team, and when you care that much, I have no doubt it will spill over when people challenge you about how you approach things. I have always felt he was strong in his convictions and he isn't backward about vocalising them, even when he probably shouldn't and, in turn, react emotionally.
I'll never condone any abuse (be it in person or on social media platforms humanity could probably do without) from those who went last Tuesday to Bristol. It was absolutely an awful, soulless result that REALLY kicked us all in the teeth, and plenty of football fans here (and elsewhere) will always think it's OK to give dogs abuse for games like that - that's just not what it's about for me. Discourse about that will never go anywhere constructive in most cases, but I'm disappointed it's become a topic of conversation in relation to our club. A lot of it is just pantomime emotion in the moment.
I was very critical of both the selection and tactics for that Bristol game, but in even higher measure, I'm full of praise for the changes for the Birmingham game. NJ is a good, experienced manager that knows the game and knows the expectation, and he learned a lot in the last week. Plenty of managers would have gone full meltdown and we could have EASILY been spanked by Birmingham and be on a 4 loss death spiral. He led us through and switched it around.
Periods like this can be used as both negatives and positives for the outcome of a season, but in showing we can react to adversity with results, NJ has banked some more credit with me - and even more so with the tactical changes too.1 -
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Absolute wet wipe. When we started the season the team was almost always:
Mannion
Mitchell Jones Gillesphey
Ramsay Coventry Docherty Berry Small
Ahadme T.Campbell
Then he changed it to:
Mannion
Edmonds-Green Jones Gillesphey
Ramsay Coventry Docherty A.Campbell Small
Ahadme Kanu
for the Blackpool game, 3 changes all completely tactical, and we lost.
Suddenly, he changed it to:
Mannion
Mitchell Jones Potts
Ramsay Coventry Anderson Edwards
Kanu Godden T.Campbell
So a change of shape with a 343, 6 changes in total, and again we lost 1-0 to Stevenage. So he went to:
Mannion
Mitchell Jones Gillesphey
Watson Anderson Coventry Berry Edwards
Ahadme T.Campbell
So a further 4 changes from the game before, and another shape change back to 352, and we lost AGAIN to Bristol Rovers, 3-2.
So for the Birmingham game, we go
Mannion
Ramsay Mitchell Jones Edwards
Coventry
Docherty Anderson
A.Campbell
Godden Kanu
So a change of shape and 5 changes, and suddenly it clicks and we win 1-0.
Small wonder the fans are trying to pick the team, because in that 5 game period we changed shape almost every game and averaged nearly 5 changes in the lineup every time. That looks like panic and desperation, a manager that's not convinced he knows what he's doing and doesn't believe in his own tactics and plan. So how can he expect us to buy into his plan and trust in his plan when he doesn't himself? (And if he does believe in his plan, why as soon as we lost one game to Blackpool did he chuck it out the window and change half the team and the shape?!)13 -
I think the answer to such a long-winded post is....underperformance from individual players. They needed a wakeup call by being dropped. It worked against Birmingham and now they need to be hungry against lesser teams that provide a different type of challenge.
NJ can't do much about Coventry's in-game corners and conceding a goal from our own corner, as we did v Stevenage.
It's a long old season.0 -
Interesting replies to the BBC twitter post about it from Stoke and Southampton fans.jbcafc said:On BBC now as well - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cly3z0rjq4xo
However you view it, it's not great publicity.0 -
I might be misremembering but I'm pretty sure Appleton got absolutely slaughtered for his interview before his last game, and rightly so.Chunes said:I seem to be in the minority but not bothered by his comments. Was much more bothered by Appleton's which were far more confrontational towards the fans, but got less reaction. I'll accept that it's a slippery slope either way and if NJ wants to togetherness then it's not really the way to go about it, but on balance I also think some of the criticism he was getting was way OTT, and riding the adrenaline from a big win, he's let it all out. Wouldn't be surprised to see some 'corrections' made in the next press conf.1 -
I was taking the piss but everyone has different views, the main ones being Ramsay is a must and wtf were you doing dropping Mitchell previously and continuing to pick AhadmeCallumcafc said:
Except he didn't really do what people were asking him to... people were also saying he should drop Anderson & Kanu and play Terry Taylor, Thierry Small &. Miles Leaburn. He did none of those.oohaahmortimer said:Don’t think anyone would give two flying fucks if he came out and said a small minority of fans cnuted me off for my wanky selections and team performances recently , I’ve made the changes they requested and fair play to them it worked .
Go back to the match thread from Saturday and have a look at some of the reactions to the team news. Somewhat tame yes but people were still questioning him. But now we won, of course he made all the changes the fans were asking for.0 -
There was no cohesion though, no thought out process in the changes. Why drop the 352 for a 343 when we haven't played it all season? Why drop Ramsay? Why drop your captain for a crap performance but Anderson got multiple starts despite also having crap performances in that time? Why bring in Potts for a game then drop him again for the guy you dropped him for? He's all over the place with his selections and if he doesn't like people calling him out for it and suggesting who should play, maybe he's in the wrong profession. The abuse goes too far, but he's far too emotional for his own goodmendonca said:I think the answer to such a long-winded post is....underperformance from individual players. They needed a wakeup call by being dropped. It worked against Birmingham and now they need to be hungry against lesser teams that provide a different type of challenge.
NJ can't do much about Coventry's in-game corners and conceding a goal from our own corner, as we did v Stevenage.
It's a long old season.2 -
I think the really sad thing about this is that we got a fantastic result with a great performance. Jones would have got high praise from most on here for turning the team around. Instead he has deflected from the result and we are talking about his comments as much if not more than about the game. He's turned a positive into a negative, with two weeks for us to fester over it.13
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sam3110 said:
There was no cohesion though, no thought out process in the changes. Why drop the 352 for a 343 when we haven't played it all season?mendonca said:I think the answer to such a long-winded post is....underperformance from individual players. They needed a wakeup call by being dropped. It worked against Birmingham and now they need to be hungry against lesser teams that provide a different type of challenge.
NJ can't do much about Coventry's in-game corners and conceding a goal from our own corner, as we did v Stevenage.
It's a long old season.
Sam, you make some good points BUT we hadn't played 4-4-2 with a box midfield in Nathan Jones tenure, yet it worked a treat against Birmingham.
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Fortunately that was the only touch he had, and it was pretty inconsequentialGribbo said:
It's all part of the theatre though, surely? That’s why The Valley will never be described as a fortress by opposition players. I’m not saying it should be foaming-at-the-mouth hostility or personally abusing him, just be the 12th man that other clubs have for their home games. I agree it’s nice to be nice, but I’m pretty sure May and others know the score. From what I could hear yesterday though, he only got a boo for his first touch, and it was pretty quiet after that anyway.se9addick said:Booing Alfie May yesterday felt particularly brain dead.0 -
all he had to say was a small section of the fan base have absolutely abused me and we all know our cockwomble numbers have risen in recent times but it's not a pandemic just yet2
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This is my takeJamesSeed said:
No. It’s unacceptable. You think fans behaved like this back in the day? No, of course they didn’t. People have no self restraint these days. How would you like it if people turned up at your place of work and screamed abuse at you in front of your colleagues and bosses? It doesn’t matter how much someone is paid either.Davo55 said:
Agree but I think NJ is wrong to come out whingeing about it in his post match comments. He must know by now that the performances and results of the team will get an exaggerated reaction from fans and that it goes with the territory. Man up, and then show the abusers how wrong they are by the performances and results on the pitch.Danny Addick said:I’m sure this will be divisive but I want to say it anyway. In my opinion, fans lose all credibility when they abuse players or managers. Moan all you want, you pay your money and football is a game of opinions after all, but never abuse. Give feedback, say he was wrong, say he’s awful but don’t swear and abuse him. Grow up.Adults screaming abuse at a man because he lost games of football? Seriously?1 -
yes, big difference. In the original post I said boo all you want but don’t abuse. I’m firm on that but it seems like the fan base (judging only by this thread, of course) is divided 50:50.JamesSeed said:
Of course not, and it was ever thus. But the culture has changed, very much for the worse.Airman Brown said:Is there any set of fans at any club that doesn’t try to pick a better team when faced with poor performances?I’m talking about getting in someone’s face to abuse them, not booing from the stands etc.0 -
Danny Addick said:
yes, big difference. In the original post I said boo all you want but don’t abuse. I’m firm on that but it seems like the fan base (judging only by this thread, of course) is divided 50:50.JamesSeed said:
Of course not, and it was ever thus. But the culture has changed, very much for the worse.Airman Brown said:Is there any set of fans at any club that doesn’t try to pick a better team when faced with poor performances?I’m talking about getting in someone’s face to abuse them, not booing from the stands etc.Is it?Pretty much 100% have said personal abuse is wrong, pretty much 100% have agreed that it was right to question his team selection and tactics vocally (without personal abuse) and pretty much 100% agree that we were woefully under performing in those three losses.Managers (like players) get hero worshiped when they get it right and brickbats when they get it wrong. Twas ever thus.
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Don’t agree with abuse and think Jones is the right man but saying I got the team wrong 3 games in a row and apologising and then win a game and call out fans by saying you take the team/ or I’ll leave doesn’t seem very professional.8
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There are no people more forgiving than fans if the results are good. As long as he keeps out best players on board, all will be well.0
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i don't have an issue with him not accepting being abused by some of our fans if its overstepped the mark but regardless, it definitely looks looks like he wants off to Cardiff to me or at least wants to let everybody know there's another optionIlovelondontown said:Is this a “come and get me Cardiff “???1 -
That's alright, great minds and all thatSix-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Half way through this I found myself singing "We didn't start the fire"Garrymanilow said:
But I think that's exactly the point. He can understand up to a certain level, he might know the history and be familiar with the characters but I really do think you have to have lived it to really understand why our fanbase is always one loud noise away from a meltdown. I can still remember the feeling of having that 11/12 season and then finding out over the summer that we suddenly had no money again. I can remember the crushing slide down to League One just a few years after we were beating Liverpool in the Premier League. I remember where I was when I read that Roland had taken over, I remember the 'Roland Duchatelet doesn't understand football' thread that came soon after from a Standard Liege fan, I remember Yohann Thuram, Thomas Driesen, sacking Powell, Guy Luzon, Karel Fraeye, so so nearly Nobby Vinegar, security personnel assaulting fans while Katrien Meire smirked out of a window, the Australian done deal, 13 match winless runs, Russell Slade's patience, Matt Southall's super-duper phone, a secret transfer embargo, our best player refusing to play for us, relegation again, Chris Farnell and the other Paul Elliott, finding out a sympathetic Romanian lawyer was the only person who actually seemed to want to keep the club alive, Sandgaard's interest, a public injunction hearing, the takeover finally happening and it devolving into guitar solos, sacking loyal staff, signing cheap players and being told running a football club 'isn't that hard' as we sank to our lowest ever finishes. Good Adkins, bad Adkins, Charlie Kirk, eternal injury lists, Martin Sandgaard, Raelynn running HR illegally for some reason, Ben Garner's League Two lucky dip, the American binman's abortive takeover, the Methven wars, finally a new shadowy takeover followed by happy Holden, sad Holden, Bad Appleton's hands in his pockets and finally a new manager brought in so we don't get relegated to League Two.shine166 said:
If jones doesn't understand what we've been through, nobody will... he's hardly new to all things Charlton.Garrymanilow said:I think Jones shouldn’t have bothered going after the treatment after the game, but I also do think you have to consider it from his non-traumatised perspective. We’ve seen too much. For the past 17 years we’ve been an absolute basket case and it’s got progressively worse. I think we’ve had 3 good seasons in that time and even then there was weird stuff going on behind the scenes. We’re used to everything being terrible and any good moment suddenly being ripped away and some more humiliating nonsense happening to us. We now expect the absolute worst and we’re on a hair trigger. Losing 3 games in a row and not playing very well so far this season set people to 11 very quickly.If you’re Jones though, you’d be absolutely mystified. Come in to a team that hasn’t won in 12 games and is set for relegation, get results off Bolton and Pompey, finally get a win off Derby and proceed to lose only the first and last games of his season. Bring in a massively different team playing a very specific way over the summer, see the team be a little slow to adapt and have a couple of setbacks but still be very much in the promotion conversation after 10 games and get an absolute mouthful from fans. If you’ve not got nearly two decades of context for that you’d probably feel a bit put out to be fair. As far as he’s concerned we’re screaming at him for putting the heating on because he doesn’t know our entire family was killed by a radiator. He’d still do well to keep it too himself but I bet he’s perplexed. We aren’t well. We need CBT, but not the winger.
Half of that doesn't make sense to me and I lived it! I've likely missed some absolutely insane stuff that I've blocked out as well. You're exactly right, unless one of us takes over the manager's job I don't think there's anyone on earth who can honestly understand why we're the way we are. I think it might have ruined my life.
(Great post btw)
Edit - SD Addick beat me to it1 -
He has been in the game long enough to know not to respond to the abuse.....if it were something like 'that's the best way to respond to our critics' that's fine......he has a big ego and sees any criticism as a personal assault....needs to get some counseling IMO......0
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We’re a strange bunch sometimes!
Scarred and some what over sensitive.
The game is based on opinions…yes…but we seem to have a self harming ability to find an opinion that has a problem with everything!Wednesday morning - “he’s lost the dressing room, he’s tactically inept, I’ll drive him to Cardiff myself”.
Saturday afternoon - “I don’t like what he’s said, we only won because he went to the back four like we said, I don’t like him” etc etc etc.
Fact is, this fan base (collective) doesn’t like anything, any manager, any board, any style of play, any process apart from winning!
I wonder at times, having been battered so much over the years, do we even like the game anymore or do we only like winning? We’re not Man City, we’re Charlton, a third division team who’s rather sh*t tbh and has been for nearly a couple decades!!
We’ve got a bloody good gaffa, who’s slightly off his rocker, he wants to be here, he’s passionate as you’ll find and wants to be where we want to be!! Get behind him & enjoy the rollercoaster.
Football is so much more enjoyable without the bi-polar style reactions to everything!11
