Find this whole thread a bit of an unnecessary dig. Russell is a lifelong Charlton fan and has worked bloody hard for the club. Not saying everything and everything is down to him but as the previous poster says, what’s he supposed to say?
Especially at the moment when numbers are a bit light he’s going above and beyond hours wise. Don’t see why anybody would knock that.
By claiming primary responsibility for ticket sales growth when there is obviously an elephant ( a very happy one, mind) in that particular room, he invites that criticism, not least from other Charlton fans who are marketing pros, and know that proving a link between advertising/sales promotion and sales uplift is more complex than he implies. I dont think it will do him much good with prospective clients either because a lot of them will also be footie fans -even if they are not Charlton they will take one look at the league table and say “hang on a minute, fella…”
Its a pity because I for one would be genuinely interested to learn what exactly he did, which target groups he went for, and how he believes his plans worked on them.
Since starting working with the club in September, attendances have improved by 13% (no baseline provided).
It's all their doing - clearly nothing to do with results on the pitch.
Well, what are they supposed to say? We’ve had no effect but we’d still like you to hire us?
What they are supposed to say?
Any management consultant that values long term engagement doesn't bullshit to their client and their clients audience (in a football club, both are key stakeholders).
What they COULD have said, which would have been more accurate and more engaging with those stakeholders, and which would have been open to less scrutiny and opprobrium, would have been something like:-
"Delighted to be working with CAFC to build ticket sales and commercial capability. With great results on the pitch, success breeds success and the club has seen decent attendance growth in recent months. Delighted that Bazballers has had an opportunity to play its part in that success".
Since starting working with the club in September, attendances have improved by 13% (no baseline provided).
It's all their doing - clearly nothing to do with results on the pitch.
Well, what are they supposed to say? We’ve had no effect but we’d still like you to hire us?
What they are supposed to say?
Any management consultant that values long term engagement doesn't bullshit to their client and their clients audience (in a football club, both are key stakeholders).
What they COULD have said, which would have been more accurate and more engaging with those stakeholders, and which would have been open to less scrutiny and opprobrium, would have been something like:-
"Delighted to be working with CAFC to build ticket sales and commercial capability. With great results on the pitch, success breeds success and the club has seen decent attendance growth in recent months. Delighted that Bazballers has had an opportunity to play its part in that success".
Ah, this is spot on. But the trouble is, certain types of work do attract a certain type of people. I would assume most that work in that type of industry are naturally quite arrogant. You'd have to be. Again, this isn't an attack. Just my opinion. I just cannot imagine the nice pediatricians (as just one example) I know, doing this kind of job and putting out crap like he did. Estate agents, salesmen, consultants etc etc are just natural bullshit merchants. imo.
Since starting working with the club in September, attendances have improved by 13% (no baseline provided).
It's all their doing - clearly nothing to do with results on the pitch.
Well, what are they supposed to say? We’ve had no effect but we’d still like you to hire us?
What they are supposed to say?
Any management consultant that values long term engagement doesn't bullshit to their client and their clients audience (in a football club, both are key stakeholders).
What they COULD have said, which would have been more accurate and more engaging with those stakeholders, and which would have been open to less scrutiny and opprobrium, would have been something like:-
"Delighted to be working with CAFC to build ticket sales and commercial capability. With great results on the pitch, success breeds success and the club has seen decent attendance growth in recent months. Delighted that Bazballers has had an opportunity to play its part in that success".
Ah, this is spot on. But the trouble is, certain types of work do attract a certain type of people. I would assume most that work in that type of industry are naturally quite arrogant. You'd have to be. Again, this isn't an attack. Just my opinion. I just cannot imagine the nice pediatricians (as just one example) I know, doing this kind of job and putting out crap like he did. Estate agents, salesmen, consultants etc etc are just natural bullshit merchants. imo.
Aren't you mistaking arrogance for being self confident and assertive, which is what I'd expect a reputable consultant to be?
Since starting working with the club in September, attendances have improved by 13% (no baseline provided).
It's all their doing - clearly nothing to do with results on the pitch.
Well, what are they supposed to say? We’ve had no effect but we’d still like you to hire us?
What they are supposed to say?
Any management consultant that values long term engagement doesn't bullshit to their client and their clients audience (in a football club, both are key stakeholders).
What they COULD have said, which would have been more accurate and more engaging with those stakeholders, and which would have been open to less scrutiny and opprobrium, would have been something like:-
"Delighted to be working with CAFC to build ticket sales and commercial capability. With great results on the pitch, success breeds success and the club has seen decent attendance growth in recent months. Delighted that Bazballers has had an opportunity to play its part in that success".
Ah, this is spot on. But the trouble is, certain types of work do attract a certain type of people. I would assume most that work in that type of industry are naturally quite arrogant. You'd have to be. Again, this isn't an attack. Just my opinion. I just cannot imagine the nice pediatricians (as just one example) I know, doing this kind of job and putting out crap like he did. Estate agents, salesmen, consultants etc etc are just natural bullshit merchants. imo.
Aren't you mistaking arrogance for being self confident and assertive, which is what I'd expect a reputable consultant to be?
I reckon the top ones are a good mix of 20% arrogance, 40% confidence and 40% assertiveness. Many are just arrogance and misguided confidence.
As said, it isn't an attack. I have just found in my experience the top people have the right mix of qualities for certain jobs - across all sectors. Whereas many people usually have more of the bad qualities. It is why rich people hire the top lawyers, accountants, builders, architects, car cleaners etc etc. Have you not found that in life? That you need the top people? Even down to the diligent and professional window cleaner, rather than the unreliable idiot that does it for cash in hand wages because not even McDonald's would hire him.
This bloke just comes across as a bit of a wally. imo. Which isn't surprising, as the industry attracts bullshitters.
I tend to find there is an inverse correlation between the amount one posts on LinkedIn and amount of success one is having in one's role. I'm highly selective about what I say I'm working on over LinkedIn, as I'm not about to blab and risk breaching client confidentiality in many cases.
I think it's unfair to say anyone involved in "consultancy" - a very broad church - is arrogant, a bullshitter, pulling pants down, doing stuff to make CEOs look good etc. Outside opinion prevents insularity and the perpetuation of poor working practice. I think one can definitely over-rely on consultants (especially in marketing and advertising), but there's a place for them when deployed judiciously and correctly.
In relation to re-engaging lapsed fans - I am one such fan. Season ticket for 25 years, and then on and off since COVID. This is my second consecutive season without one.
Not received anything beyond weekly emails, and certainly haven't been aware of any attempts to re-engage with me. Likely to get a season ticket next year, regardless of play off outcome, as there does finally seem to be some competence and ambition on the pitch. But my general feeling is that, while things are moving in the right direction on the pitch, off the pitch we're a million miles from the club we used to be, where it felt like every fan, staff member and director was pulling in the same direction.
The word "consultant" gets my hackles up. My employer consistently wastes hundreds of thousands of pounds on consultants, instead of asking staff and external stakeholders what we could do better and how we could do it. This feels like more of the same - instead of chucking money in the bin, get the Supporters Trust on board, speak directly to some lapsed supporters, ask them what world persuade them to come back, ask them what are the qualities the club used to have that have got lost.
I always get the impression that consultants are a vanity project for egoistic employers. As you say, consultants just ask the same questions of the same people that the boss could do themself if he/she had half a mind to, but he/she thinks it is beneath them, so they waste money on some outsider while telling you they can't afford to give you a pay rise.
A surprisingly narrow view of a long established profession. From personal experience of working with consultants, I've often found them an unwelcome distraction, but their remit is usually to improve systems and efficiency, so they need to have a good understanding of them first.
The employees have the knowledge to identify problems areas from their experience, but the consultants have a breadth of knowledge, gained from their experience in other businesses, that the employees and their employers don't necessarily have, which enables them to propose and implement system changes.
In this instance, I don't know how difficult it is to get the football ticket sales marketing model right, I'd defer to Airman on that, but there's a distinction to be made between good and bad consultancy firms I think. They aren't all a waste of time and money.
I can see the value in bringing experience in other fields sometimes. But applying what works in one job to another does not necessarily work (hello Roland 👋)...
A better way of doing it would be for companies not to be so narrow minded in recruitement "Must have "X" years experience in flapdoddle sales" is often the ad you will see. If you can sell wallygromits you can sell flapdoddles, so open up the field and bring in new ideas that way?
In relation to re-engaging lapsed fans - I am one such fan. Season ticket for 25 years, and then on and off since COVID. This is my second consecutive season without one.
Not received anything beyond weekly emails, and certainly haven't been aware of any attempts to re-engage with me. Likely to get a season ticket next year, regardless of play off outcome, as there does finally seem to be some competence and ambition on the pitch. But my general feeling is that, while things are moving in the right direction on the pitch, off the pitch we're a million miles from the club we used to be, where it felt like every fan, staff member and director was pulling in the same direction.
The word "consultant" gets my hackles up. My employer consistently wastes hundreds of thousands of pounds on consultants, instead of asking staff and external stakeholders what we could do better and how we could do it. This feels like more of the same - instead of chucking money in the bin, get the Supporters Trust on board, speak directly to some lapsed supporters, ask them what world persuade them to come back, ask them what are the qualities the club used to have that have got lost.
I always get the impression that consultants are a vanity project for egoistic employers. As you say, consultants just ask the same questions of the same people that the boss could do themself if he/she had half a mind to, but he/she thinks it is beneath them, so they waste money on some outsider while telling you they can't afford to give you a pay rise.
A surprisingly narrow view of a long established profession. From personal experience of working with consultants, I've often found them an unwelcome distraction, but their remit is usually to improve systems and efficiency, so they need to have a good understanding of them first.
The employees have the knowledge to identify problems areas from their experience, but the consultants have a breadth of knowledge, gained from their experience in other businesses, that the employees and their employers don't necessarily have, which enables them to propose and implement system changes.
In this instance, I don't know how difficult it is to get the football ticket sales marketing model right, I'd defer to Airman on that, but there's a distinction to be made between good and bad consultancy firms I think. They aren't all a waste of time and money.
I can see the value in bringing experience in other fields sometimes. But applying what works in one job to another does not necessarily work (hello Roland 👋)...
A better way of doing it would be for companies not to be so narrow minded in recruitement "Must have "X" years experience in flapdoddle sales" is often the ad you will see. If you can sell wallygromits you can sell flapdoddles, so open up the field and bring in new ideas that way?
True, it doesn't always, and the good consultant will know that. I'm not defending this guy, but is it fair to generalize about an entire profession on the basis of his claims, as I've seen being done a few times on these pages
Consultants are often employed as change agents, making them unpopular with those resistant to change who feel threatened by their involvement. However, that doesn't necessarily render their input of limited value, and in general you get what you pay for.
Like PA, I'd be interested to hear what he's actually done having read his post about it. Everyone knows results are the key driver behind attendances. The title of this thread is misleading though because I can't see him saying anywhere that results haven't had an impact.
Since starting working with the club in September, attendances have improved by 13% (no baseline provided).
It's all their doing - clearly nothing to do with results on the pitch.
Well, what are they supposed to say? We’ve had no effect but we’d still like you to hire us?
What they are supposed to say?
Any management consultant that values long term engagement doesn't bullshit to their client and their clients audience (in a football club, both are key stakeholders).
What they COULD have said, which would have been more accurate and more engaging with those stakeholders, and which would have been open to less scrutiny and opprobrium, would have been something like:-
"Delighted to be working with CAFC to build ticket sales and commercial capability. With great results on the pitch, success breeds success and the club has seen decent attendance growth in recent months. Delighted that Bazballers has had an opportunity to play its part in that success".
Have to agree to with this.
I know this absolute whopper of a bloke who's a cinema manager. He gloats about ticket sales and how many tickets they have sold on certain weekends etc.
Reality is, when something like Star Wars comes out, people are gonna turn up, for the more obscure films, no chance.
Then when the big films do come out this turnip is all over social media gloating about the opening weeks of his cinema and how good a leader he is etc.
I see this stuff as no different. It's out of your hands. Fair enough if we were selling 23k against Shrewsbury when this or any other consultant was about, I'd think fair enough, it's just luck otherwise, and it's completely clear to see.
Sure he means no harm and now I know he's a Charlton fan I feel bad about taking the mick, but the wording of the posts was inviting slander.
I suppose it also comes down to someone's mindset. Based on that guys wording he strikes me as a glass half full type guy, I am very much a skeptical and glass half empty type, shock.
I remember when I was 18 and working in McDonalds I got a load of negative remarks at work when the store I worked did a record number of drive thru orders near Eureka Park.
Everyone was buzzing and saying how amazing it was and high fiving etc (Nathan Jones would have been livid) and I pissed on everyone's chips a bit and said "what are we celebrating, we didn't get paid any extra, and the dark Knight rises is on at the cinema across the road, that's why it's busy, we didn't do anything".
I tend to find there is an inverse correlation between the amount one posts on LinkedIn and amount of success one is having in one's role. I'm highly selective about what I say I'm working on over LinkedIn, as I'm not about to blab and risk breaching client confidentiality in many cases.
I think it's unfair to say anyone involved in "consultancy" - a very broad church - is arrogant, a bullshitter, pulling pants down, doing stuff to make CEOs look good etc. Outside opinion prevents insularity and the perpetuation of poor working practice. I think one can definitely over-rely on consultants (especially in marketing and advertising), but there's a place for them when deployed judiciously and correctly.
To be fair, I said all the way through that the top ones are worth the money. My point was more that he seems like a wally, which isn’t surprising, as I imagine the sector attracts a lot of over-confident but useless wallies.
There’s a reason that these types of jobs are poked fun at in comedies etc. The lying, shallow estate agent… the bullshitting salesman… the arrogant but stupid consultant.
There is a great bit in Peep Show, where Johnson is setting up a management consultant company & wants Mark to be his partner.
Comments
Its a pity because I for one would be genuinely interested to learn what exactly he did, which target groups he went for, and how he believes his
plans worked on them.
Any management consultant that values long term engagement doesn't bullshit to their client and their clients audience (in a football club, both are key stakeholders).
What they COULD have said, which would have been more accurate and more engaging with those stakeholders, and which would have been open to less scrutiny and opprobrium, would have been something like:-
"Delighted to be working with CAFC to build ticket sales and commercial capability. With great results on the pitch, success breeds success and the club has seen decent attendance growth in recent months. Delighted that Bazballers has had an opportunity to play its part in that success".
Many are just arrogance and misguided confidence.
As said, it isn't an attack. I have just found in my experience the top people have the right mix of qualities for certain jobs - across all sectors. Whereas many people usually have more of the bad qualities. It is why rich people hire the top lawyers, accountants, builders, architects, car cleaners etc etc. Have you not found that in life? That you need the top people? Even down to the diligent and professional window cleaner, rather than the unreliable idiot that does it for cash in hand wages because not even McDonald's would hire him.
This bloke just comes across as a bit of a wally. imo. Which isn't surprising, as the industry attracts bullshitters.
I tend to find there is an inverse correlation between the amount one posts on LinkedIn and amount of success one is having in one's role. I'm highly selective about what I say I'm working on over LinkedIn, as I'm not about to blab and risk breaching client confidentiality in many cases.
I think it's unfair to say anyone involved in "consultancy" - a very broad church - is arrogant, a bullshitter, pulling pants down, doing stuff to make CEOs look good etc. Outside opinion prevents insularity and the perpetuation of poor working practice. I think one can definitely over-rely on consultants (especially in marketing and advertising), but there's a place for them when deployed judiciously and correctly.
A better way of doing it would be for companies not to be so narrow minded in recruitement "Must have "X" years experience in flapdoddle sales" is often the ad you will see. If you can sell wallygromits you can sell flapdoddles, so open up the field and bring in new ideas that way?
Consultants are often employed as change agents, making them unpopular with those resistant to change who feel threatened by their involvement. However, that doesn't necessarily render their input of limited value, and in general you get what you pay for.
Like PA, I'd be interested to hear what he's actually done having read his post about it. Everyone knows results are the key driver behind attendances. The title of this thread is misleading though because I can't see him saying anywhere that results haven't had an impact.
I know this absolute whopper of a bloke who's a cinema manager. He gloats about ticket sales and how many tickets they have sold on certain weekends etc.
Reality is, when something like Star Wars comes out, people are gonna turn up, for the more obscure films, no chance.
Then when the big films do come out this turnip is all over social media gloating about the opening weeks of his cinema and how good a leader he is etc.
I see this stuff as no different. It's out of your hands. Fair enough if we were selling 23k against Shrewsbury when this or any other consultant was about, I'd think fair enough, it's just luck otherwise, and it's completely clear to see.
Sure he means no harm and now I know he's a Charlton fan I feel bad about taking the mick, but the wording of the posts was inviting slander.
There’s a reason that these types of jobs are poked fun at in comedies etc. The lying, shallow estate agent… the bullshitting salesman… the arrogant but stupid consultant.