Is Defeat A Failure ?

ShootersHillGuru · May 19

oohaahmortimer said:

League One is a failure all the time for a club with our historical placing in the football pyramid .
We have been relegated in to it 6 times and the longest time to get out in the previous 5 attempts was 3 seasons .... if we go up it's taken 5 ... a complete load of wank

Football is a very different beast to what it was. With a very few exceptions football was static in the movement of clubs within the pyramid. Clubs had a “natural” place. I’d have suggested ours was a mid to bottom half Championship club with flirtations both up and down. Because of the finances and the possibilities created by the enormous wealth that can be found in The Premier League, for most part the days of the local businessman owning and financing a club are over. It’s seen as an investment opportunity and it’s why we see rich overseas investors and now in the case of Wrexham, film stars getting in on the act. We are unlikely to be able to compete with many of them. Our natural order has changed. Certainly we have been incredibly unlucky to have been victim to a series of nutters and crooks as owners since the stability and growth under Murray. Sadly we have to suck that up and hope that the current owners have both the ambition and wherewithal to achieve success. Previously clubs like Brentford and Brighton were seen as lesser to clubs like Charlton but money, luck and bad luck and successful business plans have turned that on its head. There will be plenty of examples. We are where we are and have no god given right to expect us to be better placed than we are.

Chris_from_Sidcup · May 19

Callumcafc said:

Depends on how you define failure, what perspectives you are considering etc.

A loss next weekend would be highly disappointing. And we probably would lose two or three good players off the back of it.

But - we lost Dobson and May last season, and still improved as a team. No reason why it can’t happen again. Uncertainty over replacements is understandable but we did alright this season didn’t we?

As Nathan Jones talks about, no matter where we are, we are always looking for year on year improvements. This season, in perspective, is already a big improvement over the previous two or three years.

Yes this season has been a vast improvement on last season, but then it could hardly have been any worse. But dress it up however you like, failing to beat Orient to get promotion will be a disaster. We're highly unlikely to get a better chance anytime soon for the reasons most people have listed above.

Callumcafc · May 19

I doubt any team spends as much money as Birmingham or, in January, Wrexham did this past season. We always say it’s going to be the hardest year yet.

The names sound scary when you list them out but not all of them will be up there. At least two of the three relegated sides could have seasons as poor as Huddersfield and Rotherham did.

ElfsborgAddick · May 19

Callumcafc said:

Depends on how you define failure, what perspectives you are considering etc.

A loss next weekend would be highly disappointing. And we probably would lose two or three good players off the back of it.

But - we lost Dobson and May last season, and still improved as a team. No reason why it can’t happen again. Uncertainty over replacements is understandable but we did alright this season didn’t we?

As Nathan Jones talks about, no matter where we are, we are always looking for year on year improvements. This season, in perspective, is already a big improvement over the previous two or three years.

How clear do you want it, improving on last season being the worst in our history.
No promotion is a failure every season we are stuck in the 3rd division.

Rothko · May 19

Not overly convinced Luton are loaded as such, all the money is being spent on the new stadium, so it'll be down to see if Bloomfield can repeat the trick, Plymouth are in a good place, and Cardiff are a mess. Not convinced Wycombe will be around it, Dodds won't make it to November.

No one will have the financial firepower of the two that went up automatically, and anywhere, we're going up, so this all academic

Callumcafc · May 19

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

Depends on how you define failure, what perspectives you are considering etc.

A loss next weekend would be highly disappointing. And we probably would lose two or three good players off the back of it.

But - we lost Dobson and May last season, and still improved as a team. No reason why it can’t happen again. Uncertainty over replacements is understandable but we did alright this season didn’t we?

As Nathan Jones talks about, no matter where we are, we are always looking for year on year improvements. This season, in perspective, is already a big improvement over the previous two or three years.

How clear do you want it, improving on last season being the worst in our history.
No promotion is a failure every season we are stuck in the 3rd division.

What would be an appropriate response to failure in that case? Should we have a similar clear out of players that we did in 23/24 because ultimately, they failed to get us up?

ElfsborgAddick · May 19

Callumcafc said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Callumcafc said:

Depends on how you define failure, what perspectives you are considering etc.

A loss next weekend would be highly disappointing. And we probably would lose two or three good players off the back of it.

But - we lost Dobson and May last season, and still improved as a team. No reason why it can’t happen again. Uncertainty over replacements is understandable but we did alright this season didn’t we?

As Nathan Jones talks about, no matter where we are, we are always looking for year on year improvements. This season, in perspective, is already a big improvement over the previous two or three years.

How clear do you want it, improving on last season being the worst in our history.
No promotion is a failure every season we are stuck in the 3rd division.

What would be an appropriate response to failure in that case? Should we have a similar clear out of players that we did in 23/24 because ultimately, they failed to get us up?

Keep the nucleus of the squad and bring new guys in.
Not going up is still failure whatever way you look at it.

ElfsborgAddick · May 19

Rothko said:

Not overly convinced Luton are loaded as such, all the money is being spent on the new stadium, so it'll be down to see if Bloomfield can repeat the trick, Plymouth are in a good place, and Cardiff are a mess. Not convinced Wycombe will be around it, Dodds won't make it to November.

No one will have the financial firepower of the two that went up automatically, and anywhere, we're going up, so this all academic

I fancy Wycombe for being near relegation.

ForeverAddickted · May 19

Woodwork said:

Braziliance said:

I've got to be honest, I don't see us top2 next season, or rather it was more likely this season.

Luton coming down are loaded, Plymouth probably better equipped to go straight back up, if Cardiff pull their finger out they could be a problem.

Stockport are loaded and a good side, Wycombe have rich owners, all the sides coming up, look more of a test than the sides coming down.

You expect the likes of Barnsley, Rotherham and Bolton to sort their shit out. Reading new owners and always have loads of quality.

I think next season looks a far harder test than this season without the obvious anomaly of Birmingham City.

I don't want anything to do with this league. It will be harder to be promoted next season than stay up in the champ imo. Just a hunch.

Agreed.

Luton Town and Plymouth Argyle will be better than Wrexham imo. And if Cardiff City sort themselves out, they will be too. Bolton Wanderers, Rotherham United, Blackpool, Barnsley, Peterborough United and Huddersfield Town will all be better (again, imo). You can't discount Stockport County or Wycombe Wanderers either.

The same Luton that just got relegated from the Premier League, when the two other sides relegated that year ended up in the top three of the Championship? - They don't seem, on last seasons basis, to be the sort of club that like Birmingham will throw money at the problem - They seem more interested in the Stadium.

Plymouth have always been a bit of a yoyo club between the Championship / League Two, so wont be surprised if they copy Rotherham

Cardiff have a bat shit crazy owner, and they don't even have a Manager at the moment.

Agree that the other names you've mentioned SHOULD be better, but there is no guarantee that they will. A year ago I'm sure plenty of Charlton fans weren't anticipating the season we've just had, I imagine a few didn't expect us to go from 18th to the Play-Off Final like what we have done - The EFL is a LOT more unpredictable than the Premier League.

Radostanradical · May 19

Radostanradical said:

Absolutely not and any suggestion that it is would be is an utterly bizarre take, we have (like any other club) no god given right to success. Our aim at the beginning of the season was play-offs, thats what was set out at the beginning of the season, we have succeeded in that. However we no have a chance to step forward and actually achieve something.

The aim is always to build something and Jones has shown that there is something building here, as long as we are moving forward I will be patient. However, If we don't go up come Sunday I won't be happy with getting to the play-offs next season, we need to actively be pushing and achieve top or at minimum going up via play-offs.

As for the argument that if we don't go up we will lose players or need to rebuild, it's an understandable but none the less misguided view and i will explain why those that believe it are wrong. Will we lose players more than likely, yes we will. However who are we likely to lose - Small (almost definitely), Campbell (more than likely but still in contract), Lloyd Jones (possibly but I would say unlikely and just signed a three year contract), Coventry (again unlikely but even if he did still in contract).

Last season we lost unarguably our 2 best players in May and Dobbo, yet we are a better team this season than we were last season, thats not a debate its quantifiable fact (I'm not starting the debate whether it was there fault or not, thats separate and silly anyway). So the idea that losing a couple of our better players and its unlikely we would lose ALL 4 I mentioned above is frankly illogical and screams in the face of the obvious evidence from last season. Equally even if we do go up this team will still need a substantial addition of players (and probably trim a few) to not be relegated immediately.

Posted this late last night but I'd add to this there are conceivably 10 Championship ready teams in our division each season in terms of infrastructure and only 3 can get promoted that plus the reasons above are why its clearly hubris and ignorance to believe that losing the playoff final would be a failure this season

th0rryy · May 19

Whilst we have absolutely improved this season, I will refer back to NJs comments that "we haven't achieved anything yet".

As ever, the opportunity cost of not going up will have reverberating impact over ability to contest it again next season. I think multiple players in this squad both want to be and are able to play at Championship level to further/maximise their careers. Sadly, I feel like that this would lead to a number of this squad would have decent bids come in, which then in turn would require a partial rebuild. Then, you need to get those players buying in to NJ (which is a factor), and it's another long, tough season in a consistently competitive league. Failure is a strong word for it, but not going up would be very disappointing and require more work again.

Ultimately, this is a game that will likely be determined by very fine margins and the quality/mistakes on the day. I have confidence that we'll have enough to beat them (albeit probably going to be close in true NJ style). Losing this game would be significant setback for the club as a whole when one of our aims is to return to the Championship, and become a consistent resident there. However, that comes with it's own challenges to not just go straight back down.

I'm not stressing about Sunday - I want us to and believe we will win. It's been a good season and hopefully it ends positively. It's not like we won't give it everything, but it's losing is not something we should be fearful of. I tend to focus on the potential positives, which could be really exciting. Seeing this team stay together and continue building. Losing could be a massive hump, but it's all in our hands and I'm here for the ride either way.

Woodwork · May 19

ForeverAddickted said:

Woodwork said:

Braziliance said:

I've got to be honest, I don't see us top2 next season, or rather it was more likely this season.

Luton coming down are loaded, Plymouth probably better equipped to go straight back up, if Cardiff pull their finger out they could be a problem.

Stockport are loaded and a good side, Wycombe have rich owners, all the sides coming up, look more of a test than the sides coming down.

You expect the likes of Barnsley, Rotherham and Bolton to sort their shit out. Reading new owners and always have loads of quality.

I think next season looks a far harder test than this season without the obvious anomaly of Birmingham City.

I don't want anything to do with this league. It will be harder to be promoted next season than stay up in the champ imo. Just a hunch.

Agreed.

Luton Town and Plymouth Argyle will be better than Wrexham imo. And if Cardiff City sort themselves out, they will be too. Bolton Wanderers, Rotherham United, Blackpool, Barnsley, Peterborough United and Huddersfield Town will all be better (again, imo). You can't discount Stockport County or Wycombe Wanderers either.

The same Luton that just got relegated from the Premier League, when the two other sides relegated that year ended up in the top three of the Championship? - They don't seem, on last seasons basis, to be the sort of club that like Birmingham will throw money at the problem - They seem more interested in the Stadium.

Plymouth have always been a bit of a yoyo club between the Championship / League Two, so wont be surprised if they copy Rotherham

Cardiff have a bat shit crazy owner, and they don't even have a Manager at the moment.

Agree that the other names you've mentioned SHOULD be better, but there is no guarantee that they will. A year ago I'm sure plenty of Charlton fans weren't anticipating the season we've just had, I imagine a few didn't expect us to go from 18th to the Play-Off Final like what we have done - The EFL is a LOT more unpredictable than the Premier League.

My appraisal of Luton was more about my opinion that I didn’t think Wrexham were much cop. Wrexham will need a complete overhaul to be competitive in the Championship. I believe Luton Town and Plymouth Argyle will be far better than Wrexham were this season. Not that they will throw lots of money at it, just that they will put out much better teams than Wrexham did.

Woodwork · May 19

ShootersHillGuru said:

oohaahmortimer said:

League One is a failure all the time for a club with our historical placing in the football pyramid .
We have been relegated in to it 6 times and the longest time to get out in the previous 5 attempts was 3 seasons .... if we go up it's taken 5 ... a complete load of wank

Football is a very different beast to what it was. With a very few exceptions football was static in the movement of clubs within the pyramid. Clubs had a “natural” place. I’d have suggested ours was a mid to bottom half Championship club with flirtations both up and down. Because of the finances and the possibilities created by the enormous wealth that can be found in The Premier League, for most part the days of the local businessman owning and financing a club are over. It’s seen as an investment opportunity and it’s why we see rich overseas investors and now in the case of Wrexham, film stars getting in on the act. We are unlikely to be able to compete with many of them. Our natural order has changed. Certainly we have been incredibly unlucky to have been victim to a series of nutters and crooks as owners since the stability and growth under Murray. Sadly we have to suck that up and hope that the current owners have both the ambition and wherewithal to achieve success. Previously clubs like Brentford and Brighton were seen as lesser to clubs like Charlton but money, luck and bad luck and successful business plans have turned that on its head. There will be plenty of examples. We are where we are and have no god given right to expect us to be better placed than we are.

This is spot on.

In this new era, Brighton & Hove Albion are a bigger club than Charlton, and tbf they have done that relatively organically. They’ve benefitted from football becoming a popular sport for middle class people to go watch. They have a huge and affluent catchment area all to themselves (bar Crawley Town). This catchment area benefits them not only from a crowd point of view, but also commercially and in developing players. Now they have the infrastructure in place, it is no wonder that they are one of the top 12 clubs in the country in this SkySports era.

Elthamaddick · May 19

Woodwork said:

Braziliance said:

I've got to be honest, I don't see us top2 next season, or rather it was more likely this season.

Luton coming down are loaded, Plymouth probably better equipped to go straight back up, if Cardiff pull their finger out they could be a problem.

Stockport are loaded and a good side, Wycombe have rich owners, all the sides coming up, look more of a test than the sides coming down.

You expect the likes of Barnsley, Rotherham and Bolton to sort their shit out. Reading new owners and always have loads of quality.

I think next season looks a far harder test than this season without the obvious anomaly of Birmingham City.

I don't want anything to do with this league. It will be harder to be promoted next season than stay up in the champ imo. Just a hunch.

Agreed.

Luton Town and Plymouth Argyle will be better than Wrexham imo. And if Cardiff City sort themselves out, they will be too. Bolton Wanderers, Rotherham United, Blackpool, Barnsley, Peterborough United and Huddersfield Town will all be better (again, imo). You can't discount Stockport County or Wycombe Wanderers either.

in a way I agree - but why will all those current L1 clubs suddenly be better next season and we won't (if we don't go up?*)

*I think we'll win sunday anyway

ElfsborgAddick · May 19

Radostanradical said:

Radostanradical said:

Absolutely not and any suggestion that it is would be is an utterly bizarre take, we have (like any other club) no god given right to success. Our aim at the beginning of the season was play-offs, thats what was set out at the beginning of the season, we have succeeded in that. However we no have a chance to step forward and actually achieve something.

The aim is always to build something and Jones has shown that there is something building here, as long as we are moving forward I will be patient. However, If we don't go up come Sunday I won't be happy with getting to the play-offs next season, we need to actively be pushing and achieve top or at minimum going up via play-offs.

As for the argument that if we don't go up we will lose players or need to rebuild, it's an understandable but none the less misguided view and i will explain why those that believe it are wrong. Will we lose players more than likely, yes we will. However who are we likely to lose - Small (almost definitely), Campbell (more than likely but still in contract), Lloyd Jones (possibly but I would say unlikely and just signed a three year contract), Coventry (again unlikely but even if he did still in contract).

Last season we lost unarguably our 2 best players in May and Dobbo, yet we are a better team this season than we were last season, thats not a debate its quantifiable fact (I'm not starting the debate whether it was there fault or not, thats separate and silly anyway). So the idea that losing a couple of our better players and its unlikely we would lose ALL 4 I mentioned above is frankly illogical and screams in the face of the obvious evidence from last season. Equally even if we do go up this team will still need a substantial addition of players (and probably trim a few) to not be relegated immediately.

Posted this late last night but I'd add to this there are conceivably 10 Championship ready teams in our division each season in terms of infrastructure and only 3 can get promoted that plus the reasons above are why its clearly hubris and ignorance to believe that losing the playoff final would be a failure this season

Birmingham and Wrexham got promoted after one season in this division, this is our 5th season.

Radostanradical · May 19

ElfsborgAddick said:

Radostanradical said:

Radostanradical said:

Absolutely not and any suggestion that it is would be is an utterly bizarre take, we have (like any other club) no god given right to success. Our aim at the beginning of the season was play-offs, thats what was set out at the beginning of the season, we have succeeded in that. However we no have a chance to step forward and actually achieve something.

The aim is always to build something and Jones has shown that there is something building here, as long as we are moving forward I will be patient. However, If we don't go up come Sunday I won't be happy with getting to the play-offs next season, we need to actively be pushing and achieve top or at minimum going up via play-offs.

As for the argument that if we don't go up we will lose players or need to rebuild, it's an understandable but none the less misguided view and i will explain why those that believe it are wrong. Will we lose players more than likely, yes we will. However who are we likely to lose - Small (almost definitely), Campbell (more than likely but still in contract), Lloyd Jones (possibly but I would say unlikely and just signed a three year contract), Coventry (again unlikely but even if he did still in contract).

Last season we lost unarguably our 2 best players in May and Dobbo, yet we are a better team this season than we were last season, thats not a debate its quantifiable fact (I'm not starting the debate whether it was there fault or not, thats separate and silly anyway). So the idea that losing a couple of our better players and its unlikely we would lose ALL 4 I mentioned above is frankly illogical and screams in the face of the obvious evidence from last season. Equally even if we do go up this team will still need a substantial addition of players (and probably trim a few) to not be relegated immediately.

Posted this late last night but I'd add to this there are conceivably 10 Championship ready teams in our division each season in terms of infrastructure and only 3 can get promoted that plus the reasons above are why its clearly hubris and ignorance to believe that losing the playoff final would be a failure this season

Birmingham and Wrexham got promoted after one season in this division, this is our 5th season.

Respectfully we are neither Birmingham or Wrexham, Wrexham operate with the budget of a club premier league level and ditto for Birmingham who were selling out their ground in L!

Woodwork · May 19

Elthamaddick said:

Woodwork said:

Braziliance said:

I've got to be honest, I don't see us top2 next season, or rather it was more likely this season.

Luton coming down are loaded, Plymouth probably better equipped to go straight back up, if Cardiff pull their finger out they could be a problem.

Stockport are loaded and a good side, Wycombe have rich owners, all the sides coming up, look more of a test than the sides coming down.

You expect the likes of Barnsley, Rotherham and Bolton to sort their shit out. Reading new owners and always have loads of quality.

I think next season looks a far harder test than this season without the obvious anomaly of Birmingham City.

I don't want anything to do with this league. It will be harder to be promoted next season than stay up in the champ imo. Just a hunch.

Agreed.

Luton Town and Plymouth Argyle will be better than Wrexham imo. And if Cardiff City sort themselves out, they will be too. Bolton Wanderers, Rotherham United, Blackpool, Barnsley, Peterborough United and Huddersfield Town will all be better (again, imo). You can't discount Stockport County or Wycombe Wanderers either.

in a way I agree - but why will all those current L1 clubs suddenly be better next season and we won't (if we don't go up?*)

*I think we'll win sunday anyway

Oh, I wasn’t saying in comparison. I simply meant that objectively I cannot see Bolton, Huddersfield or Rotherham being as poor as this season again. I think Blackpool will improve too.

MarcusH26 · May 19

Woodwork said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

oohaahmortimer said:

League One is a failure all the time for a club with our historical placing in the football pyramid .
We have been relegated in to it 6 times and the longest time to get out in the previous 5 attempts was 3 seasons .... if we go up it's taken 5 ... a complete load of wank

Football is a very different beast to what it was. With a very few exceptions football was static in the movement of clubs within the pyramid. Clubs had a “natural” place. I’d have suggested ours was a mid to bottom half Championship club with flirtations both up and down. Because of the finances and the possibilities created by the enormous wealth that can be found in The Premier League, for most part the days of the local businessman owning and financing a club are over. It’s seen as an investment opportunity and it’s why we see rich overseas investors and now in the case of Wrexham, film stars getting in on the act. We are unlikely to be able to compete with many of them. Our natural order has changed. Certainly we have been incredibly unlucky to have been victim to a series of nutters and crooks as owners since the stability and growth under Murray. Sadly we have to suck that up and hope that the current owners have both the ambition and wherewithal to achieve success. Previously clubs like Brentford and Brighton were seen as lesser to clubs like Charlton but money, luck and bad luck and successful business plans have turned that on its head. There will be plenty of examples. We are where we are and have no god given right to expect us to be better placed than we are.

This is spot on.

In this new era, Brighton & Hove Albion are a bigger club than Charlton, and tbf they have done that relatively organically. They’ve benefitted from football becoming a popular sport for middle class people to go watch. They have a huge and affluent catchment area all to themselves (bar Crawley Town). This catchment area benefits them not only from a crowd point of view, but also commercially and in developing players. Now they have the infrastructure in place, it is no wonder that they are one of the top 12 clubs in the country in this SkySports era.

Yeah they've got absolutely zero competition down here in Sussex , Crawley don't really count , the West of the county you might start to get a few Pompey fans but that's about it.

Would be interesting if they had a rough season and went down how sustainable it would all be for them or if the attendances would fall off a cliff.

Photollery · May 19

Just bung Orient £5m plus Brownie and Lisbie…Championship football sorted!

ShootersHillGuru · May 19

ElfsborgAddick said:

Radostanradical said:

Radostanradical said:

Absolutely not and any suggestion that it is would be is an utterly bizarre take, we have (like any other club) no god given right to success. Our aim at the beginning of the season was play-offs, thats what was set out at the beginning of the season, we have succeeded in that. However we no have a chance to step forward and actually achieve something.

The aim is always to build something and Jones has shown that there is something building here, as long as we are moving forward I will be patient. However, If we don't go up come Sunday I won't be happy with getting to the play-offs next season, we need to actively be pushing and achieve top or at minimum going up via play-offs.

As for the argument that if we don't go up we will lose players or need to rebuild, it's an understandable but none the less misguided view and i will explain why those that believe it are wrong. Will we lose players more than likely, yes we will. However who are we likely to lose - Small (almost definitely), Campbell (more than likely but still in contract), Lloyd Jones (possibly but I would say unlikely and just signed a three year contract), Coventry (again unlikely but even if he did still in contract).

Last season we lost unarguably our 2 best players in May and Dobbo, yet we are a better team this season than we were last season, thats not a debate its quantifiable fact (I'm not starting the debate whether it was there fault or not, thats separate and silly anyway). So the idea that losing a couple of our better players and its unlikely we would lose ALL 4 I mentioned above is frankly illogical and screams in the face of the obvious evidence from last season. Equally even if we do go up this team will still need a substantial addition of players (and probably trim a few) to not be relegated immediately.

Posted this late last night but I'd add to this there are conceivably 10 Championship ready teams in our division each season in terms of infrastructure and only 3 can get promoted that plus the reasons above are why its clearly hubris and ignorance to believe that losing the playoff final would be a failure this season

Birmingham and Wrexham got promoted after one season in this division, this is our 5th season.

And both have effectively bought their promotions. Good luck to them by the way. It’s not a criticism but when league one clubs like Birmingham in this instance spend £10 million on a striker it’s no real shock to see that they run away with the league.

The Red Robin · May 19

Woodwork said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

oohaahmortimer said:

League One is a failure all the time for a club with our historical placing in the football pyramid .
We have been relegated in to it 6 times and the longest time to get out in the previous 5 attempts was 3 seasons .... if we go up it's taken 5 ... a complete load of wank

Football is a very different beast to what it was. With a very few exceptions football was static in the movement of clubs within the pyramid. Clubs had a “natural” place. I’d have suggested ours was a mid to bottom half Championship club with flirtations both up and down. Because of the finances and the possibilities created by the enormous wealth that can be found in The Premier League, for most part the days of the local businessman owning and financing a club are over. It’s seen as an investment opportunity and it’s why we see rich overseas investors and now in the case of Wrexham, film stars getting in on the act. We are unlikely to be able to compete with many of them. Our natural order has changed. Certainly we have been incredibly unlucky to have been victim to a series of nutters and crooks as owners since the stability and growth under Murray. Sadly we have to suck that up and hope that the current owners have both the ambition and wherewithal to achieve success. Previously clubs like Brentford and Brighton were seen as lesser to clubs like Charlton but money, luck and bad luck and successful business plans have turned that on its head. There will be plenty of examples. We are where we are and have no god given right to expect us to be better placed than we are.

This is spot on.

In this new era, Brighton & Hove Albion are a bigger club than Charlton, and tbf they have done that relatively organically. They’ve benefitted from football becoming a popular sport for middle class people to go watch. They have a huge and affluent catchment area all to themselves (bar Crawley Town). This catchment area benefits them not only from a crowd point of view, but also commercially and in developing players. Now they have the infrastructure in place, it is no wonder that they are one of the top 12 clubs in the country in this SkySports era.

I’m not sure the Brighton owner throwing loads of cash at it is the most organic promotion I’ve seen.

killerandflash · May 19

Braziliance said:

I've got to be honest, I don't see us top2 next season, or rather it was more likely this season.

Luton coming down are loaded, Plymouth probably better equipped to go straight back up, if Cardiff pull their finger out they could be a problem.

Stockport are loaded and a good side, Wycombe have rich owners, all the sides coming up, look more of a test than the sides coming down.

You expect the likes of Barnsley, Rotherham and Bolton to sort their shit out. Reading new owners and always have loads of quality.

I think next season looks a far harder test than this season without the obvious anomaly of Birmingham City.

I don't want anything to do with this league. It will be harder to be promoted next season than stay up in the champ imo. Just a hunch.

I can see Stockport struggling to match this season, and at some point Challinor will be tempted away. And Wycombe might have a rich owner, but are a small club without the excitement of Wrexham. Wycombe's success is as the aggressive underdog, not by splashing the cash.

This is Orient's big chance of promotion, as without Kelman, where will the goals come from?

Birmingham splashed the cash this season, but so did Wrexham in January, signing Smith for £2m. I doubt any team next season in L1 will be spending that sort of money.

Braziliance · May 19

Radostanradical said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Radostanradical said:

Radostanradical said:

Absolutely not and any suggestion that it is would be is an utterly bizarre take, we have (like any other club) no god given right to success. Our aim at the beginning of the season was play-offs, thats what was set out at the beginning of the season, we have succeeded in that. However we no have a chance to step forward and actually achieve something.

The aim is always to build something and Jones has shown that there is something building here, as long as we are moving forward I will be patient. However, If we don't go up come Sunday I won't be happy with getting to the play-offs next season, we need to actively be pushing and achieve top or at minimum going up via play-offs.

As for the argument that if we don't go up we will lose players or need to rebuild, it's an understandable but none the less misguided view and i will explain why those that believe it are wrong. Will we lose players more than likely, yes we will. However who are we likely to lose - Small (almost definitely), Campbell (more than likely but still in contract), Lloyd Jones (possibly but I would say unlikely and just signed a three year contract), Coventry (again unlikely but even if he did still in contract).

Last season we lost unarguably our 2 best players in May and Dobbo, yet we are a better team this season than we were last season, thats not a debate its quantifiable fact (I'm not starting the debate whether it was there fault or not, thats separate and silly anyway). So the idea that losing a couple of our better players and its unlikely we would lose ALL 4 I mentioned above is frankly illogical and screams in the face of the obvious evidence from last season. Equally even if we do go up this team will still need a substantial addition of players (and probably trim a few) to not be relegated immediately.

Posted this late last night but I'd add to this there are conceivably 10 Championship ready teams in our division each season in terms of infrastructure and only 3 can get promoted that plus the reasons above are why its clearly hubris and ignorance to believe that losing the playoff final would be a failure this season

Birmingham and Wrexham got promoted after one season in this division, this is our 5th season.

Respectfully we are neither Birmingham or Wrexham, Wrexham operate with the budget of a club premier league level and ditto for Birmingham who were selling out their ground in L!

Wrexham definitely do not operate anywhere near a Premier league level. Not even close.

They've paid some players championship wages, but that's it.

Same as Birmingham, upper to mid-table championship wages, of course they've spent more transfer fees than a lot of championship sides, hence why they're an anomaly.

Braziliance · May 19

killerandflash said:

Braziliance said:

I've got to be honest, I don't see us top2 next season, or rather it was more likely this season.

Luton coming down are loaded, Plymouth probably better equipped to go straight back up, if Cardiff pull their finger out they could be a problem.

Stockport are loaded and a good side, Wycombe have rich owners, all the sides coming up, look more of a test than the sides coming down.

You expect the likes of Barnsley, Rotherham and Bolton to sort their shit out. Reading new owners and always have loads of quality.

I think next season looks a far harder test than this season without the obvious anomaly of Birmingham City.

I don't want anything to do with this league. It will be harder to be promoted next season than stay up in the champ imo. Just a hunch.

I can see Stockport struggling to match this season, and at some point Challinor will be tempted away. And Wycombe might have a rich owner, but are a small club without the excitement of Wrexham. Wycombe's success is as the aggressive underdog, not by splashing the cash.

This is Orient's big chance of promotion, as without Kelman, where will the goals come from?

Birmingham splashed the cash this season, but so did Wrexham in January, signing Smith for £2m. I doubt any team next season in L1 will be spending that sort of money.

Stockport won't struggle, they're in a great place. Their owner is seriously minted and has big ambitions for them. As long as they keep Challinor and add to that squad they'll be right up there again.

Doesn't matter how small Wycombe are, a club who can afford the players they can and can afford to turn down 7 million bids will eventually break through. They just need a better manager.

I also disagree on Orient, new billionaire owners and building slowly. All 3 of those sides will comfortably be around the top10 and beyond (if Orient stay down).

All have wealthier owners if what I've heard from some of their close ties is true.

This league is a disaster next season. Want nothing to do with it.

Luton have parachute payments and a manager who had a much smaller club, with less of a budget flying this season until he left. They're probably your Birmingham next season.

Anyway, hopefully none of this matters in a weeks time.

ElfsborgAddick · May 19

Radostanradical said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Radostanradical said:

Radostanradical said:

Absolutely not and any suggestion that it is would be is an utterly bizarre take, we have (like any other club) no god given right to success. Our aim at the beginning of the season was play-offs, thats what was set out at the beginning of the season, we have succeeded in that. However we no have a chance to step forward and actually achieve something.

The aim is always to build something and Jones has shown that there is something building here, as long as we are moving forward I will be patient. However, If we don't go up come Sunday I won't be happy with getting to the play-offs next season, we need to actively be pushing and achieve top or at minimum going up via play-offs.

As for the argument that if we don't go up we will lose players or need to rebuild, it's an understandable but none the less misguided view and i will explain why those that believe it are wrong. Will we lose players more than likely, yes we will. However who are we likely to lose - Small (almost definitely), Campbell (more than likely but still in contract), Lloyd Jones (possibly but I would say unlikely and just signed a three year contract), Coventry (again unlikely but even if he did still in contract).

Last season we lost unarguably our 2 best players in May and Dobbo, yet we are a better team this season than we were last season, thats not a debate its quantifiable fact (I'm not starting the debate whether it was there fault or not, thats separate and silly anyway). So the idea that losing a couple of our better players and its unlikely we would lose ALL 4 I mentioned above is frankly illogical and screams in the face of the obvious evidence from last season. Equally even if we do go up this team will still need a substantial addition of players (and probably trim a few) to not be relegated immediately.

Posted this late last night but I'd add to this there are conceivably 10 Championship ready teams in our division each season in terms of infrastructure and only 3 can get promoted that plus the reasons above are why its clearly hubris and ignorance to believe that losing the playoff final would be a failure this season

Birmingham and Wrexham got promoted after one season in this division, this is our 5th season.

Respectfully we are neither Birmingham or Wrexham, Wrexham operate with the budget of a club premier league level and ditto for Birmingham who were selling out their ground in L!

Wycombe should have gone up, they did not, but their budget could not have been much.

KiwiValley · May 19

I'm almost more interested in the transfer window than the result at Wembley. I think in my head we are going up this year or next and so it's about building an exciting team for next year's League 1 or a battling team for next year's Championship. With Jones in charge i am confident we'll keep performing next year and be comfortable in the autos at season end.

Woodwork · May 19

The Red Robin said:

Woodwork said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

oohaahmortimer said:

League One is a failure all the time for a club with our historical placing in the football pyramid .
We have been relegated in to it 6 times and the longest time to get out in the previous 5 attempts was 3 seasons .... if we go up it's taken 5 ... a complete load of wank

Football is a very different beast to what it was. With a very few exceptions football was static in the movement of clubs within the pyramid. Clubs had a “natural” place. I’d have suggested ours was a mid to bottom half Championship club with flirtations both up and down. Because of the finances and the possibilities created by the enormous wealth that can be found in The Premier League, for most part the days of the local businessman owning and financing a club are over. It’s seen as an investment opportunity and it’s why we see rich overseas investors and now in the case of Wrexham, film stars getting in on the act. We are unlikely to be able to compete with many of them. Our natural order has changed. Certainly we have been incredibly unlucky to have been victim to a series of nutters and crooks as owners since the stability and growth under Murray. Sadly we have to suck that up and hope that the current owners have both the ambition and wherewithal to achieve success. Previously clubs like Brentford and Brighton were seen as lesser to clubs like Charlton but money, luck and bad luck and successful business plans have turned that on its head. There will be plenty of examples. We are where we are and have no god given right to expect us to be better placed than we are.

This is spot on.

In this new era, Brighton & Hove Albion are a bigger club than Charlton, and tbf they have done that relatively organically. They’ve benefitted from football becoming a popular sport for middle class people to go watch. They have a huge and affluent catchment area all to themselves (bar Crawley Town). This catchment area benefits them not only from a crowd point of view, but also commercially and in developing players. Now they have the infrastructure in place, it is no wonder that they are one of the top 12 clubs in the country in this SkySports era.

I’m not sure the Brighton owner throwing loads of cash at it is the most organic promotion I’ve seen.

Hence the ‘relatively’. They didn’t do a Birmingham City, Manchester City or Chelsea. They spent money, but did it wisely & it was at least backed it up by building the infrastructure to grow in a sustainable way.

They are a bonafide PL club these days and given their catchment area, they deserve to be respected as one of the country’s top clubs to boot.

msomerton · May 19

Radostanradical said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Radostanradical said:

Radostanradical said:

Absolutely not and any suggestion that it is would be is an utterly bizarre take, we have (like any other club) no god given right to success. Our aim at the beginning of the season was play-offs, thats what was set out at the beginning of the season, we have succeeded in that. However we no have a chance to step forward and actually achieve something.

The aim is always to build something and Jones has shown that there is something building here, as long as we are moving forward I will be patient. However, If we don't go up come Sunday I won't be happy with getting to the play-offs next season, we need to actively be pushing and achieve top or at minimum going up via play-offs.

As for the argument that if we don't go up we will lose players or need to rebuild, it's an understandable but none the less misguided view and i will explain why those that believe it are wrong. Will we lose players more than likely, yes we will. However who are we likely to lose - Small (almost definitely), Campbell (more than likely but still in contract), Lloyd Jones (possibly but I would say unlikely and just signed a three year contract), Coventry (again unlikely but even if he did still in contract).

Last season we lost unarguably our 2 best players in May and Dobbo, yet we are a better team this season than we were last season, thats not a debate its quantifiable fact (I'm not starting the debate whether it was there fault or not, thats separate and silly anyway). So the idea that losing a couple of our better players and its unlikely we would lose ALL 4 I mentioned above is frankly illogical and screams in the face of the obvious evidence from last season. Equally even if we do go up this team will still need a substantial addition of players (and probably trim a few) to not be relegated immediately.

Posted this late last night but I'd add to this there are conceivably 10 Championship ready teams in our division each season in terms of infrastructure and only 3 can get promoted that plus the reasons above are why its clearly hubris and ignorance to believe that losing the playoff final would be a failure this season

Birmingham and Wrexham got promoted after one season in this division, this is our 5th season.

Respectfully we are neither Birmingham or Wrexham, Wrexham operate with the budget of a club premier league level and ditto for Birmingham who were selling out their ground in L!

Wrexham operated with the budget of a mid table Championship size and Birmingham with a top 6 Championship team.

BigDiddy · May 19

I was very critical of NJ and the club up till November - from then he and the squad have done brilliantly.

So, I do not think losing will be a failure - look at how far we have come from the Appleton shit show.

The owners need to support the team even more next year, whether we go up or not.

If we go up and NJ is not allowed to strengthen [ I reckon we need 6-8 new players] then we would get relegated.

Feels more like a club again, so this season is a success.

Now boys, smash the Orient this Sunday !

BigDiddy · May 19

KiwiValley said:

I'm almost more interested in the transfer window than the result at Wembley. I think in my head we are going up this year or next and so it's about building an exciting team for next year's League 1 or a battling team for next year's Championship. With Jones in charge i am confident we'll keep performing next year and be comfortable in the autos at season end.

100% agree.

Is Defeat A Failure ?

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