Luzon: I never had final say on transfers

Brentford are a club, which recruits players based on a sophisticated stats model (their owner was a whizz in the City)

It worked very well last season, combining this with Mark Warburton, but they then let Warburton go as he wouldn't rely solely on this model, and have struggled ever since. Dean Smith (a manger many of us would have liked at The Valley) seems mired in a struggle to stay up (7 points from the last 10 games)

seriously_red said:

Funny how Luzon didn't go out of his way to apportion credit to the "network scout" after Diarra, Johnson, and Watt showed up in Jan/Feb 2015 and he took us from 20th to 12th last May!

And Pardew showed us how it works when the manager is in control of transfers. Thankfully he is repeating his standard pattern at Palace such that we might meet in the Championship in 18 months time?

I think the issue at Charlton is that we don't know who the faceless people are doing the scouting, so there is no accountability. And I don't think the budgets were high enough last summer. As @Garrymanilow and @newyorkaddick articulate the issue isn't the model but the execution.

When looking at the train wreck that this season has become I would put failure down to several factors:
1) not compensating for the sale of Liege - they supplied four first team players in 2014/15 - Buyens, Bulot, Ben Haim and Watt - no transfer fees
2) not completing the squad - we bought players in July 2015 but nothing after that - I suspect that was because we played so well in August
3) not using the Autumn loan window to cover for injuries to Kashi etc.
4) The appointment of the interim one.

Even after all that we had a chance when Riga arrived and he was given new defenders including Teixeira who played for him at Liege.

But I'm afraid that too many of our more valuable players have been injured or out of form. A director of football might have written up a list of players to improve the outcome and ensure that we were in better shape?

The simple fact is we are bottom six payers so a bottom six outcome is to be expected. What has caught the board out is that the Championship standard has improved. We cannot even compete with teams just up from League 1.

So Luzon having a moan about the guy who employed him for three years tells us very little about why we are where we are. And what happens next.

Curbishley also showed us how it works. As did Chris Powell. Three promotions in the Football League between them.

Henry Irving said:

as an aside while we're talking about Fraeye

Richard Cawley ‏@RichCawleySLP 5h5 hours ago England, United Kingdom
@DessieValley He was never interim. Had a permanent deal.

totally gobsmacked ... wow ... didn't see that coming

rikofold said:

Let's not pretend Curbs did it all alone. He had a network of scouts and worked transfers with Murray and Varney. The big difference is that no player came into the squad without his agreement, and crucially he was always seen as a long term appointment who was building something.

I agree the execution has been appalling, but I think we've allowed that to hide the reality that there is no strategic plan and probably not even a vision that embraces footballing ambition as its number one priority. If there's any kind of model, it's as loose and ill-informed as it could be.

Let's be honest - when putting together that presentation, even Meire couldn't articulate the strategy - some half arsed soundbites around certain areas of focus and a nod to what we wanted to hear, nothing more.

"For lack of vision, the people perish" - could a proverb be more relevant?

So true because the "plan" has been about buying cheap and selling high. They forgot the playing and winning football games in-between and the human factors as mentioned by Tutt Tutt.

Unfortunately for Roland and disastrously for us, football players are, unlike electronic components, human and unpredictable.

I was told last week that the search for the new head scout will soon be over and that people would be impressed. No name but inference was that is was someone British. We shall see but we had a very good and experienced British chief scout who we let slip away and haven't bothered to replace since he left in October. I assume that he resigned before that so in effect we've waited all season to fill one of the most important posts at any football club.

Henry Irving said:

rikofold said:

Let's not pretend Curbs did it all alone. He had a network of scouts and worked transfers with Murray and Varney. The big difference is that no player came into the squad without his agreement, and crucially he was always seen as a long term appointment who was building something.

I agree the execution has been appalling, but I think we've allowed that to hide the reality that there is no strategic plan and probably not even a vision that embraces footballing ambition as its number one priority. If there's any kind of model, it's as loose and ill-informed as it could be.

Let's be honest - when putting together that presentation, even Meire couldn't articulate the strategy - some half arsed soundbites around certain areas of focus and a nod to what we wanted to hear, nothing more.

"For lack of vision, the people perish" - could a proverb be more relevant?

So true because the "plan" has been about buying cheap and selling high. They forgot the playing and winning football games in-between and the human factors as mentioned by Tutt Tutt.

Unfortunately for Roland and disastrously for us, football players are, unlike electronic components, human and unpredictable.

I was told last week that the search for the new head scout will soon be over and that people would be impressed. No name but inference was that is was someone British. We shall see but we had a very good and experienced British chief scout who we let slip away and haven't bothered to replace since he left in October. I assume that he resigned before that so in effect we've waited all season to fill one of the most important posts at any football club.

Are you sure you were told "impressed", because the regime may mean as "impressed" (speechless at the complete farce...)?

But, it is good to see that they are actively seeking the next tranche of bitter ex-employees.

Exiled_Addick said:

The interview is missing the key follow up question.

Were any players Luzon flat out said he didn't want/rate signed anyway against his will?

Without knowing that it's a bit difficult to assess how dastardly this system is.

A manager shouldn't, in my opinion, have to sign new players he simply doesn't want, but they do also need to be able to work with players they didn't sign - for example those already at the club when they took over.

In these days of high manager turnover (even allowing for the fact that is partially down to the club itself), and hyper inflated transfer fees and player wages, I'm not sure the manager should have the level of autonomy over transfers that the old British model allowed. They must have a strong voice, but very few managers are in the Curbs and Powell mould of taking care and responsibility for the club's long term health and clubs should protect themselves from Dowie and Pardewesque wide boys.

As with so many of the things this current regime is doing though, although the fundamental idea is not such a bad one, the execution is hamstrung by a lack of a coherent medium to long term strategy, too many silly short term mistakes, and a general lack of suitably qualified and experienced people in key roles (and in some cases no one at all in key roles, such as director of football).

I think the main issue with the system comes down to the ridiculous budget that's set up. Despite Roland's fortune they plan ludicrously small budget, and then when the manager points out we don't have enough players he gets told to quiet down. Luzon wanted James Henry but didn't get him, so with missing out on Bulot as well we played Ceballos at LM until he got injured and then had nothing worthwhile to put in at that point. The same with Makienok; Luzon wanted a big sod up front, so he got given one who had played four games in the last year and no-one else. When Makienok inevitably got injured Luzon's whole tactic couldn't operate. Even in at our most penniless point under TJ and Jimenez, when Yann broke his ankle we brought in Rob Hulse to cover his role. Hulse wasn't the best player in the world but he scored a few important goals and he filled the role of target man and allowed us to keep playing the same way and not drop off as we continued to adapt to the new league. There was no budget under those two but they still managed to push through a deal to keep us going. We have the wealthiest owner we've ever had now and we never brought in cover, short term or otherwise, for Makienok when we had the chance. The closest you could say we got was bringing in Vaz Te in November to cover Igor's eternal injuries, and his contribution was absolutely nil.

Luzon was saying in August that he needed more players and we signed none, so I think the issue isn't just with him having rubbish like Ba and Sarr dropped onto him, but with the ownership's total refusal to actually listen to the requirements of the manager. His lack of final say is what will have contributed to our painfully thin squad and started our spiral down into League One.

Henry Irving said:

as an aside while we're talking about Fraeye

Richard Cawley ‏@RichCawleySLP 5h5 hours ago England, United Kingdom
@DessieValley He was never interim. Had a permanent deal.

Another porkie from the club, will they ever tell us a truth?

Garrymanilow said:

We have the wealthiest owner we've ever had now and we never brought in cover, short term or otherwise, for Makienok when we had the chance.

The closest you could say we got was bringing in Vaz Te in November to cover Igor's eternal injuries, and his contribution was absolutely nil.

That would have meant an extra player on the payroll - and the budget didn't allow for that.

Vaz Te was signed to replace Tony Watt, who was lined up to be permanently transferred to Cardiff; the loan was only intended to facilitate the move outside of the transfer window.

seriously_red said:

Funny how Luzon didn't go out of his way to apportion credit to the "network scout" after Diarra, Johnson, and Watt showed up in Jan/Feb 2015 and he took us from 20th to 12th last May!

And Pardew showed us how it works when the manager is in control of transfers. Thankfully he is repeating his standard pattern at Palace such that we might meet in the Championship in 18 months time?

I think the issue at Charlton is that we don't know who the faceless people are doing the scouting, so there is no accountability. And I don't think the budgets were high enough last summer. As @Garrymanilow and @newyorkaddick articulate the issue isn't the model but the execution.

When looking at the train wreck that this season has become I would put failure down to several factors:
1) not compensating for the sale of Liege - they supplied four first team players in 2014/15 - Buyens, Bulot, Ben Haim and Watt - no transfer fees
2) not completing the squad - we bought players in July 2015 but nothing after that - I suspect that was because we played so well in August
3) not using the Autumn loan window to cover for injuries to Kashi etc.
4) The appointment of the interim one.

Even after all that we had a chance when Riga arrived and he was given new defenders including Teixeira who played for him at Liege.

But I'm afraid that too many of our more valuable players have been injured or out of form. A director of football might have written up a list of players to improve the outcome and ensure that we were in better shape?

The simple fact is we are bottom six payers so a bottom six outcome is to be expected. What has caught the board out is that the Championship standard has improved. We cannot even compete with teams just up from League 1.

So Luzon having a moan about the guy who employed him for three years tells us very little about why we are where we are. And what happens next.

One day you might come to your senses and realise that we have been totally f***** over by two incompetent a***holes and that the recruitment process has been a total shambles.

This tells thousands why we are where we are, what happens next is we go down and flounder in division three teetering on relegation to division four.

But you crack on with your one day at a time posts ffs.

Henry Irving said:

rikofold said:

Let's not pretend Curbs did it all alone. He had a network of scouts and worked transfers with Murray and Varney. The big difference is that no player came into the squad without his agreement, and crucially he was always seen as a long term appointment who was building something.

I agree the execution has been appalling, but I think we've allowed that to hide the reality that there is no strategic plan and probably not even a vision that embraces footballing ambition as its number one priority. If there's any kind of model, it's as loose and ill-informed as it could be.

Let's be honest - when putting together that presentation, even Meire couldn't articulate the strategy - some half arsed soundbites around certain areas of focus and a nod to what we wanted to hear, nothing more.

"For lack of vision, the people perish" - could a proverb be more relevant?

So true because the "plan" has been about buying cheap and selling high. They forgot the playing and winning football games in-between and the human factors as mentioned by Tutt Tutt.

Unfortunately for Roland and disastrously for us, football players are, unlike electronic components, human and unpredictable.

I was told last week that the search for the new head scout will soon be over and that people would be impressed. No name but inference was that is was someone British. We shall see but we had a very good and experienced British chief scout who we let slip away and haven't bothered to replace since he left in October. I assume that he resigned before that so in effect we've waited all season to fill one of the most important posts at any football club.

No harm in buying cheap selling high if the players in question are good enough and not injury prone. There's a reason our signings have been cheap. See Moussa and Kashi.

As for the chief scout, I have a friend of a friend who is a scout at a top half Championship club. He said no one wants to work for Charlton at the moment and that the salary on offer for that position is about half of what it should be.

The Red Robin said:

Henry Irving said:

rikofold said:

Let's not pretend Curbs did it all alone. He had a network of scouts and worked transfers with Murray and Varney. The big difference is that no player came into the squad without his agreement, and crucially he was always seen as a long term appointment who was building something.

I agree the execution has been appalling, but I think we've allowed that to hide the reality that there is no strategic plan and probably not even a vision that embraces footballing ambition as its number one priority. If there's any kind of model, it's as loose and ill-informed as it could be.

Let's be honest - when putting together that presentation, even Meire couldn't articulate the strategy - some half arsed soundbites around certain areas of focus and a nod to what we wanted to hear, nothing more.

"For lack of vision, the people perish" - could a proverb be more relevant?

So true because the "plan" has been about buying cheap and selling high. They forgot the playing and winning football games in-between and the human factors as mentioned by Tutt Tutt.

Unfortunately for Roland and disastrously for us, football players are, unlike electronic components, human and unpredictable.

I was told last week that the search for the new head scout will soon be over and that people would be impressed. No name but inference was that is was someone British. We shall see but we had a very good and experienced British chief scout who we let slip away and haven't bothered to replace since he left in October. I assume that he resigned before that so in effect we've waited all season to fill one of the most important posts at any football club.

No harm in buying cheap selling high if the players in question are good enough and not injury prone. There's a reason our signings have been cheap. See Moussa and Kashi.

As for the chief scout, I have a friend of a friend who is a scout at a top half Championship club. He said no one wants to work for Charlton at the moment and that the salary on offer for that position is about half of what it should be.

That's Championship wages though. Soon be the right wages for a league 1 scout who doesn't have to do much anyway.

All the scouting and decisions will still come from whoever replaced Fraeye in his role "co-ordinating" the scouting and analysis.

Desperate_Pete said:

"All the scouting and decisions will still come from whoever replaced Fraeye in his role "co-ordinating" the scouting and analysis".
Sorry Henry, I let a lot go but you keep on recycling your interpretation of what KF said to you or someone and spinning it ad finitum.
He had a role in the regime but he did not scout players for Charlton or decide who should be bought. He has a little more input with the Spanish club as I understand
In fact KD did not start working for RD until early March 2014, before that he was not working for him. He was asked by RD to visit all of his clubs which he did (to Ujpest, to Madrid/Alcorcon and so to the Charlton-Birmingham game) to get an idea of the network. I repeat that player recruitment was down to two guys in Belgium who relied heavily on laptop data…. So there is no change at all or perhaps never will be!

But then doesn't your interpretation come from what Karel Fraeye apparently said to you?

Henry Irving said:

Garrymanilow said:

Desperate_Pete said:

"All the scouting and decisions will still come from whoever replaced Fraeye in his role "co-ordinating" the scouting and analysis".
Sorry Henry, I let a lot go but you keep on recycling your interpretation of what KF said to you or someone and spinning it ad finitum.
He had a role in the regime but he did not scout players for Charlton or decide who should be bought. He has a little more input with the Spanish club as I understand
In fact KD did not start working for RD until early March 2014, before that he was not working for him. He was asked by RD to visit all of his clubs which he did (to Ujpest, to Madrid/Alcorcon and so to the Charlton-Birmingham game) to get an idea of the network. I repeat that player recruitment was down to two guys in Belgium who relied heavily on laptop data…. So there is no change at all or perhaps never will be!

But then doesn't your interpretation come from what Karel Fraeye apparently said to you?

Yes the totally unbiased and no way trying to salvage his reputation Fraeye.

The "Bell is ringing for me" Fraeye

The in the stands and directors box talking to Charlton fans about his scouting role before Powell was sacked Fraeye.

The "I'm going back to coordinating his network" Fraeye

The "I scouted Bauer" Fraeye

The I don't need to scout Colchester I can just ask Harriot Fraeye

The there are two blokes in Belgium but I can't tell you their names Fraeye.

Yes, that Fraeye.

Sorry to take sides here Pete, but I think you have lost this one.

PragueAddick said:

Desperate_Pete said:

"All the scouting and decisions will still come from whoever replaced Fraeye in his role "co-ordinating" the scouting and analysis".
Sorry Henry, I let a lot go but you keep on recycling your interpretation of what KF said to you or someone and spinning it ad finitum.
He had a role in the regime but he did not scout players for Charlton or decide who should be bought. He has a little more input with the Spanish club as I understand
In fact KD did not start working for RD until early March 2014, before that he was not working for him. He was asked by RD to visit all of his clubs which he did (to Ujpest, to Madrid/Alcorcon and so to the Charlton-Birmingham game) to get an idea of the network. I repeat that player recruitment was down to two guys in Belgium who relied heavily on laptop data…. So there is no change at all or perhaps never will be!

Sorry Pete, but I just checked my emails and somebody on this thread reported on 9 Febthat he had met Karel Fraeye at a game with another Belgian. Both had their laptops and were working. This Lifer received Fraeye's email address.

I will leave it up to the Lifer whether he wishes to chip in himself, so I won't identify him, but his mails at the time are very clear.

You tease! Dish the dirt.