Olympic Stadium; our day in court
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I suppose this massive achievement is only stage 1 though – as we need somebody to do something about the injustice that transparency should reveal.0
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Following the political flak and fallout which will hit the fan when details of West Ham's deal are published, the next big question (indeed, the end game) will be whether the European Commission launch an investigation into whether the agreement constituted State Aid.
I don't know much about this, although I see that it is defined on the UK Government's site as follows:
"State aid is any advantage granted by public authorities through state resources on a selective basis to any organisations that could potentially distort competition and trade in the European Union (EU).
The definition of state aid is very broad because ‘an advantage’ can take many forms. It is anything which an undertaking (an organisation engaged in economic activity) could not get on the open market."
www.gov.uk/guidance/state-aid
It can include the use of a state asset for less than market price, although the site states that "the state aid rules allow for good aid, which is necessary to deliver growth and other important objectives." This is presumably why West Ham are wittering on in their latest statement about the open, fair and robust process by which they were appointed, their deal being the best one for the taxpayer and how their presence is going to "return hundreds of millions of pounds to the public purse over the course of the contract."
West Ham's big concern will be becoming embroiled in an EU investigation. As the Government website says, "getting it wrong can mean recovery of state aid and... might have serious consequences for the recipients." If the aid is found to be unlawful, the Commission has no discretion; it must order recovery of the aid in full (i.e. the difference between (1) what West Ham have paid and will pay and (2) what they should have paid). Presumably the Commission would set out parameters that enable the amount to be calculated and it would then be for the English courts to calculate the exact amount to be recovered from the club.
A further worry for LDDC (albeit perhaps unlikely in this case) is that, if a competitor club can show that it has suffered loss as the result of an unlawful state aid, they have a right to obtain damages from the relevant public authority.
West Ham and LDDC could, of course, have sought EU clearance in advance of entering into the agreement and would have been advised accordingly. People can draw their own conclusions as to why they chose not to do so.
All very interesting.21 -
On the £17k fee issue. Just a thought and most likely wrong but couldn't it be that LLDC already pay like an annual fee to law firms regardless of this and that figure might just be additional costs because of the tribunal?1
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I don't think they will be on a retainer or anything similar but I agree that the £17k is almost certainly the direct legal costs of having a QC represent you at a two day hearing. Leading barristers down here are on about £250-£300/hr so a specialist QC from a London chambers will be on significantly more plus their supporting staff plus vat and you are looking at little change out £7-8k/day. Nice work if you can get it...colthe3rd said:On the £17k fee issue. Just a thought and most likely wrong but couldn't it be that LLDC already pay like an annual fee to law firms regardless of this and that figure might just be additional costs because of the tribunal?
@PragueAddick has it received much media coverage in the nationals do you know?2 -
EU state aid is of course is the elephant in the room. Pronouncements by politicians that it has been cleared by the EU does not mean it has been cleared by a formal State aid investigation by the EU as the result of a state aid complaint.
As far as can be made out, the EU clearance referred to in passing by LLDC in the Tribunal was an informal consideration by the EU based on evidence submitted by LLDC/WHU to show that the deal was the result of an open commercial tender. It is not thought the agreement currently being withheld formed part of the EU consideration.
A deal reached after an open commercial tender means any state aid involved is permissible state aid, so the degree of state subsidy is not relevant. So everything would seem to rest on showing the tender process itself was fixed in favour of WHU rather than on how much subsidy WHU enjoy.
The EU can only investigate a state aid complaint by someone who claims to have been prejudiced and would have rights of redress, e.g another London football club.6 -
This is what my cousin who is heading up the Orient campaign said. He reckons the only one who could run with it may be Arsenal based onDippenhall said:EU state aid is of course is the elephant in the room. Pronouncements by politicians that it has been cleared by the EU does not mean it has been cleared by a formal State aid investigation by the EU as the result of a state aid complaint.
As far as can be made out, the EU clearance referred to in passing by LLDC in the Tribunal was an informal consideration by the EU based on evidence submitted by LLDC/WHU to show that the deal was the result of an open commercial tender. It is not thought the agreement currently being withheld formed part of the EU consideration.
A deal reached after an open commercial tender means any state aid involved is permissible state aid, so the degree of state subsidy is not relevant. So everything would seem to rest on showing the tender process itself was fixed in favour of WHU rather than on how much subsidy WHU enjoy.
The EU can only investigate a state aid complaint by someone who claims to have been prejudiced and would have rights of redress, e.g another London football club.
Spurs got compensated
Millwall at loggerheads with Lewisham council
Us - incompetent lunatic owner
Leyton Orient - seemingly incompetent, possibly criminal owner
All the others are too far away distance wise to potentially consider it0 -
From @PragueAddick's previous notes, we already know that a high profile law firm is watching with interest the outcome and looking forward to seeing the full document as much as we all are.
I suspect that the State Aid issue will be raising its' head very soon after publication.3 -
Hi mate, yes, I just googled Olympic Stadium Tribunal over lunch, and the Mail, the Mirror and Substandard had already run something, as well as outlets such as City a.m. but as usual the Guardian has the best article. According to @gavros mates on KUMB that is because it, like the BBC is "leftie". Quite what is "leftie" about transparency of State expenditure, those great thinkers did not go on to explain.Bournemouth Addick said:
I don't think they will be on a retainer or anything similar but I agree that the £17k is almost certainly the direct legal costs of having a QC represent you at a two day hearing. Leading barristers down here are on about £250-£300/hr so a specialist QC from a London chambers will be on significantly more plus their supporting staff plus vat and you are looking at little change out £7-8k/day. Nice work if you can get it...colthe3rd said:On the £17k fee issue. Just a thought and most likely wrong but couldn't it be that LLDC already pay like an annual fee to law firms regardless of this and that figure might just be additional costs because of the tribunal?
@PragueAddick has it received much media coverage in the nationals do you know?
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Just want to see one press attack dog get on the case and the rest of the pack will follow.
Always had a take it or leave it attitude with West Ham, the 66 world cup shite is funny but i seriously hate the jizz magnets and their finger puppet Brady. They need savaging.2 -
Spurs got compensated? Did they? I dont remember Boris giving us £500m towards our new Stadium!cabbles said:
This is what my cousin who is heading up the Orient campaign said. He reckons the only one who could run with it may be Arsenal based onDippenhall said:EU state aid is of course is the elephant in the room. Pronouncements by politicians that it has been cleared by the EU does not mean it has been cleared by a formal State aid investigation by the EU as the result of a state aid complaint.
As far as can be made out, the EU clearance referred to in passing by LLDC in the Tribunal was an informal consideration by the EU based on evidence submitted by LLDC/WHU to show that the deal was the result of an open commercial tender. It is not thought the agreement currently being withheld formed part of the EU consideration.
A deal reached after an open commercial tender means any state aid involved is permissible state aid, so the degree of state subsidy is not relevant. So everything would seem to rest on showing the tender process itself was fixed in favour of WHU rather than on how much subsidy WHU enjoy.
The EU can only investigate a state aid complaint by someone who claims to have been prejudiced and would have rights of redress, e.g another London football club.
Spurs got compensated
Millwall at loggerheads with Lewisham council
Us - incompetent lunatic owner
Leyton Orient - seemingly incompetent, possibly criminal owner
All the others are too far away distance wise to potentially consider it
(Thats not said to be cantanketous. You'd have to be a fool to think Levy hasnt taken a sweetener of some kind to just drop all the fuss surrounding the Stratford sh*t pit but has been no direct reported compensation, has there?)2 -
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Well done Prague!1
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It is a shame that the people running our club are too stupid to understanding how this impacts on them!!!!5
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Stupid, or perhaps they just don't care.MuttleyCAFC said:It is a shame that the people running our club are too stupid to understanding how this impacts on them!!!!
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They should care if it costs them money - if for no other reason!0
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Perhaps they have a future mapped out where we're the Whammers' feeder club. Watch the young PL stars of the future at the Valley for a few weeks, then take the short trip across the river...0
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Also my understanding of state aid is that if found guilty, the company/entity receiving it must pay it all back straight away??? Is this correct?0
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You know what, that terrifying thought has occurred to myself more than over the last couple of years. If it's good enough for Barcelona B and all that.MountsfieldPark said:Perhaps they have a future mapped out where we're the Whammers' feeder club. Watch the young PL stars of the future at the Valley for a few weeks, then take the short trip across the river...
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Are the LDDC trying to drag the case out until after June, in the hope of an Out vote so the State Aid thing won't apply any more?0
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In that case, someone should mention the two years' disengagement process...aliwibble said:Are the LDDC trying to drag the case out until after June, in the hope of an Out vote so the State Aid thing won't apply any more?
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i think they'll be happy enough to drag it out till Westham have the keys to the stadium as WH can then argue that they would never have sold their ground and gone through all this unfair blah blah blah...aliwibble said:Are the LDDC trying to drag the case out until after June, in the hope of an Out vote so the State Aid thing won't apply any more?
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Excellent work Prague and everyone else involved. Quite apart from the impact the deal could have on Charlton, this is good win for taxpayers and voters. Even if it is too late to stop the West Ham move, this has hopefully at least set a precedent that may improve the transparency and scrutiny of any future similar deals.1
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I don't think it has to be a London club. It might not even need to be an English club. Ajax and PSV would be affected, for example.cabbles said:
This is what my cousin who is heading up the Orient campaign said. He reckons the only one who could run with it may be Arsenal based onDippenhall said:EU state aid is of course is the elephant in the room. Pronouncements by politicians that it has been cleared by the EU does not mean it has been cleared by a formal State aid investigation by the EU as the result of a state aid complaint.
As far as can be made out, the EU clearance referred to in passing by LLDC in the Tribunal was an informal consideration by the EU based on evidence submitted by LLDC/WHU to show that the deal was the result of an open commercial tender. It is not thought the agreement currently being withheld formed part of the EU consideration.
A deal reached after an open commercial tender means any state aid involved is permissible state aid, so the degree of state subsidy is not relevant. So everything would seem to rest on showing the tender process itself was fixed in favour of WHU rather than on how much subsidy WHU enjoy.
The EU can only investigate a state aid complaint by someone who claims to have been prejudiced and would have rights of redress, e.g another London football club.
Spurs got compensated
Millwall at loggerheads with Lewisham council
Us - incompetent lunatic owner
Leyton Orient - seemingly incompetent, possibly criminal owner
All the others are too far away distance wise to potentially consider it
If it has to be a London club, then yes, Arsenal would be the best chance, as they have had to pay for their ground.0 -
whilst i know what you mean, i, unfortunately, think that if this all goes through as it is, the only precedent it will set is for future government sponsored clubs and ultimately a English super league with no relegation.Exiled_Addick said:Excellent work Prague and everyone else involved. Quite apart from the impact the deal could have on Charlton, this is good win for taxpayers and voters. Even if it is too late to stop the West Ham move, this has hopefully at least set a precedent that may improve the transparency and scrutiny of any future similar deals.
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Does the clock stop if the guilty party disputes the amount due? Given the endless prevarication evident so far, WHU could face an enormous bill by the time they finally have to cough up, so in the meantime do they have to put up a bond to cover their eventual liabilities? In the event of their default are LLDC (aka The Great British Public) deemed to be their guarantor? WHU have no assets other than players/training ground etc. Also, what if the ponderous EU weighs in and in, say 2025 (!), impose their own accumulated sanctions on top?cabbles said:Also my understanding of state aid is that if found guilty, the company/entity receiving it must pay it all back straight away??? Is this correct?
It seems to me that WHU/LLDC are playing for penalties. Either the agreed damages are low, in which case the public purse goes short, or they will be so large as to be unaffordable, and the money is lost anyway. What a beautiful scheme ....
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£17m of sweetener and no doubt a nice waving through of the WHL planning. Agree it's not quite the same as handing West Ham a statement for next to nothing and then paying them to play there for a century.JohnBoyUK said:
Spurs got compensated? Did they? I dont remember Boris giving us £500m towards our new Stadium!cabbles said:
This is what my cousin who is heading up the Orient campaign said. He reckons the only one who could run with it may be Arsenal based onDippenhall said:EU state aid is of course is the elephant in the room. Pronouncements by politicians that it has been cleared by the EU does not mean it has been cleared by a formal State aid investigation by the EU as the result of a state aid complaint.
As far as can be made out, the EU clearance referred to in passing by LLDC in the Tribunal was an informal consideration by the EU based on evidence submitted by LLDC/WHU to show that the deal was the result of an open commercial tender. It is not thought the agreement currently being withheld formed part of the EU consideration.
A deal reached after an open commercial tender means any state aid involved is permissible state aid, so the degree of state subsidy is not relevant. So everything would seem to rest on showing the tender process itself was fixed in favour of WHU rather than on how much subsidy WHU enjoy.
The EU can only investigate a state aid complaint by someone who claims to have been prejudiced and would have rights of redress, e.g another London football club.
Spurs got compensated
Millwall at loggerheads with Lewisham council
Us - incompetent lunatic owner
Leyton Orient - seemingly incompetent, possibly criminal owner
All the others are too far away distance wise to potentially consider it
(Thats not said to be cantanketous. You'd have to be a fool to think Levy hasnt taken a sweetener of some kind to just drop all the fuss surrounding the Stratford sh*t pit but has been no direct reported compensation, has there?)0 -
Then add in some property development and the funfair, day-out experience and I suspect the £ figures could be made to work in Roly-land, even in L1. Who cares if you lose hard-core fans who object vehemently to the club being converted into a B club? After all, it needs a visionary to show how English football can be made sustainable in the FL and without PL ambitions, and this could be the way.Bournemouth Addick said:
You know what, that terrifying thought has occurred to myself more than over the last couple of years. If it's good enough for Barcelona B and all that.MountsfieldPark said:Perhaps they have a future mapped out where we're the Whammers' feeder club. Watch the young PL stars of the future at the Valley for a few weeks, then take the short trip across the river...
We have to drive this piece of work out.1 -
They won't be sobbing if they get Zlatan to partner himBournemouth Addick said:
Yeah, I expect they'll be sobbing into their jellied eels in the knowledge that the deal they're getting enables the club to pay the likes of Payet another £50k a week or whatever on top of his current deal.gavros said:stonemuse said:And don't they hate it
I think you'll find that behind the partisan bluster there's an appreciation for what's been done here. After all, West Ham fans are going to be the most affected by this and themselves wants to know what the actual deal is.0 -
Surely the Culture, Media & Sport Parliamentary Committee will pick up on the cost to taxpayers and drag the LLDC officials in for questioning? Isit worth lobbying local MPs to put the pressure on?0
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Only 17k? Letting the legal club down if you work for that rate. How are you ever going to pay for Hermione's pony? Add at least another zero on the end. Don't forget all the back office costs too which should be included2
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Bloody great news bloody well done you what an achievementPragueAddick said:just received the Tribunal verdict
Unanimous decision
Appeal dismissed. In its entirety. No ifs, no buts.
We won. We bloody WON :-)2
