The General Election - June 8th 2017

seth plum said:

Addickted said:

Edit as it's a stupid idea.

I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish

Validity is not important any more. Other things seem to drive votes, not detail, but repeated slogans, and what people look like, and the way messages are selected and put across.
The Tory party, and indeed the Labour party too probably don't need to worry much about the detail of their policies when people don't seem to be guided by them any more.

What people look like? Are you sure??

kentaddick said:

Leuth said:

Exercise in ideology? What about the Tories, are they not an exercise in ideology?

If Corbyn had the looks of David Beckham and the gravitas of Obama then he could propose every single policy he is already proposing and SHG would be on board. Fact.

Tories dont have an ideology. Or at least a core founding ideology. It's the reason they've existed for centuries and been able to adapt.

Many years ago I took a social sciences course with the OU. The basis of the course was to take four ideologies, (liberalism, social reformism, marxism and conservatism) and apply them to different fields of study. When we got to the summer school we were told in no uncertain terms that whatever it said in the course modules, there is not really any such thing as conservative ideology. The three ideologies that the course was originally based on were liberalism, social reformism and marxism. These are all are well thought out, well researched, and have the necessary explanatory reach and explanatory depth to be considered an ideology. There isn't really a consistent conservative ideology, but they felt they had to include something because of tacit threats to the university's funding from the, then, Conservative government.

Bournemouth Addick said:

Addickted said:

Edit as it's a stupid idea.

I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish

I think what we are seeing is our old friend Confirmation Bias at work.

It doesn't matter that we've had 7 years of austerity that has failed to eliminate the deficit, all our public services systematically being dismantled, 100,000"s public sector jobs going, our health and care system teetering on collapse, our prisons on the point of exploding, our police struggling to cope with fewer and fewer officers, weak if any economic growth, stagnant wages and the rise of zero hours contracts, massive rises in homelessness and people unable to put a meal in front of their children without charit, our armed forces struggling to properly equip fewer personnel and much more.

None of that matters and it does not have any effect how many charts and graphs or graphics or statistical analysis you back your point up with if the facts don't fit the recipients existing theory. We are conditioned to ignore or denigrate facts that challenge our accepted wisdom.

We've all got it to one extent or another of course and yes, it does cut the other way too of course.

So I'm immune from confirmation bias then?

Fiiish said:

Bournemouth Addick said:

Addickted said:

Edit as it's a stupid idea.

I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish

I think what we are seeing is our old friend Confirmation Bias at work.

It doesn't matter that we've had 7 years of austerity that has failed to eliminate the deficit, all our public services systematically being dismantled, 100,000"s public sector jobs going, our health and care system teetering on collapse, our prisons on the point of exploding, our police struggling to cope with fewer and fewer officers, weak if any economic growth, stagnant wages and the rise of zero hours contracts, massive rises in homelessness and people unable to put a meal in front of their children without charit, our armed forces struggling to properly equip fewer personnel and much more.

None of that matters and it does not have any effect how many charts and graphs or graphics or statistical analysis you back your point up with if the facts don't fit the recipients existing theory. We are conditioned to ignore or denigrate facts that challenge our accepted wisdom.

We've all got it to one extent or another of course and yes, it does cut the other way too of course.

So I'm immune from confirmation bias then?

I'm still working on the assumption of alien abduction.

kentaddick said:

Leuth said:

Exercise in ideology? What about the Tories, are they not an exercise in ideology?

If Corbyn had the looks of David Beckham and the gravitas of Obama then he could propose every single policy he is already proposing and SHG would be on board. Fact.

Tories dont have an ideology. Or at least a core founding ideology. It's the reason they've existed for centuries and been able to adapt.

Centuries?

Chizz said:

kentaddick said:

Leuth said:

Exercise in ideology? What about the Tories, are they not an exercise in ideology?

If Corbyn had the looks of David Beckham and the gravitas of Obama then he could propose every single policy he is already proposing and SHG would be on board. Fact.

Tories dont have an ideology. Or at least a core founding ideology. It's the reason they've existed for centuries and been able to adapt.

Centuries?

Well, the Whigs and Tories were around in the Seventeenth Century - Tory, interestingly enough (or perhaps not), was originally a term of abuse, derived from a term for an Irish highwayman (along with Rapparee, which is a word that I prefer).

bobmunro said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

blackpool72 said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

I might return to the UK with a bang and start up me own party, show em whats what.

Who's with me?

Colin

Who the fucks Colin when hes at home? Is he proper militant who dont give two shits? Coz if he is, hes in and he can be my minister for education.

Anyone else?

A question that has often been asked but never satisfactorily answered.

Colin Sams aka bexleyboy, who seems to live in an alternative reality.

Holdkneebomb said:

Excellent piece by Andrew rawnsley today

Agree. But then you read the comments below it and find the Corbynistas in complete denial.

Bournemouth Addick said:

Addickted said:

Edit as it's a stupid idea.

I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish

I think what we are seeing is our old friend Confirmation Bias at work.

It doesn't matter that we've had 7 years of austerity that has failed to eliminate the deficit, all our public services systematically being dismantled, 100,000"s public sector jobs going, our health and care system teetering on collapse, our prisons on the point of exploding, our police struggling to cope with fewer and fewer officers, weak if any economic growth, stagnant wages and the rise of zero hours contracts, massive rises in homelessness and people unable to put a meal in front of their children without charit, our armed forces struggling to properly equip fewer personnel and much more.

None of that matters and it does not have any effect how many charts and graphs or graphics or statistical analysis you back your point up with if the facts don't fit the recipients existing theory. We are conditioned to ignore or denigrate facts that challenge our accepted wisdom.

We've all got it to one extent or another of course and yes, it does cut the other way too of course.

What will it take though? What will the breaking point be where common sense overrides confirmation bias?

Governments need to change. In my memory there has been Major to Blair and Brown to Cameron. Major by comparison to May was an incredibly competent administrator, certainly not a sociopath hellbent on imposing her idyllic 1950s Oxfordshire village, WI & grammar school fantasy on the rest of the country.

So what will it be for our voters to realise what a fucking disaster this lot of Tories are? How many more A&E departments need to fail? How many more schools need to descend into chaos? How many more poor, disabled and homeless need to die unnecessarily? How many more crimes? How much more corruption?

I feel that social media is partly to blame. The echo chamber mentality and the fact that people rarely discuss politics face-to-face anymore means people become more resilient to facts that challenge their views and instead only imbibe opinions and mantras that reinforce their beliefs. This does go both ways for both Labour and Tories, and indeed for pro and anti Corbyn Labour voters as well.

aliwibble said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm the same. I cannot see how anyone could vote for a party that calls themselves socialists...and are actually proud of that as if socialism is actually a good thing.

So what makes you think socialism _isn't_ a good thing Nick?

I've been asking this question to anyone who disagrees with socialism, I'm yet to have a single reply...

aliwibble said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm the same. I cannot see how anyone could vote for a party that calls themselves socialists...and are actually proud of that as if socialism is actually a good thing.

So what makes you think socialism _isn't_ a good thing Nick?

USSR
Cuba
Venezuela
Chezchoslovakia
East Germany
Hungary
Poland
Albania
North Korea
China
Romania
Etc

smudge7946 said:

aliwibble said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm the same. I cannot see how anyone could vote for a party that calls themselves socialists...and are actually proud of that as if socialism is actually a good thing.

So what makes you think socialism _isn't_ a good thing Nick?

USSR
Cuba
Venezuela
Chezchoslovakia
East Germany
Hungary
Poland
Albania
North Korea
China
Romania
Etc

All communist, surely? Bit of a difference.

The bit about the flesh eating aliens and city sized flying saucers was the best bit!