The General Election - June 8th 2017
Comments
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No, once someone is no longer pert they are not worthy of our attention...Super_Eddie_Youds said:http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/guws3cyv3ctq9g7vg754p2zyymvc2f
though i forget, this time around - are we allowed to listen to experts or are we not?
Which may go some way to explain my social life.9 -
The UK runs a persistent structural current account deficit - without these types of very 'sticky' capital inflows from overseas, sterling would be considerably weaker than it is with various negative implications (inflation, lower purchasing power etc.).Callumcafc said:
Unfortunately the Gulf states have enormous cash reserves which they need to put to work and we should be grateful for the investment.2 -
Well you can't cut police numbers and not pay the consequences when it is a real issue.0
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It has been an offence since the 19th Century.Chizz said:
To me this is really clear. It's simply a case of what the law says.Greenie Junior said:
Whilst what you're saying is relevant, do the quotes not slightly worry you? Do you agree with this opinion that these Isis supporters shouldn't be treated like criminals for essentially expressing an opinion? (genuine question, not trying to go for you as such)Chizz said:
Interesting spin by Order Order on what Corbyn says in that video.Greenie Junior said:Not good viewing at all. You could argue that the majority of this country have not just woken up to the very real threat and seen the damage of under funding police can do, hopefully the government will now see that they simply have to fund extra officers. After yesterday's statement, I'd give them the chance to show this. Obviously this opinion could change in the coming days if nothing is done/pledged in the remaining days of the campaign.
I also think this should be seen, some quite worrying quotes on Corbyns stance with ISIS supporters, I understand what he's saying, but you have to make an exception with these people who show support on terror, I think the majority of the country will now agree that it should be a criminal offence. This for me sums my feelings of Corbyn, Abbott McDonnell etc up, they keep going back on their beliefs, Ira ("I don't have the same hair as I did then and I don't have the same views" - Abbott, Corbyn on trident, Corbyn on shoot to kill') id imagine he will be out swiftly to say his opinion has changed on this too. I feel as though he's hiding his true opinions and views to get into power and to me that's quite worrying.
https://order-order.com/2017/06/05/corbyn-defended-fighters-returning-from-syria/
It should also be noted that the Jihadis whom he's referring to were in the main encouraged by MI6 (while Cameron was Prime Minister) to fight in Syria and Libya to help in the overthrow of Assad and Gadaffi. And the same ones who returned to the UK and "lost" by MI5 (while May was Home Secretary), and who can't be tracked by the police or MI5 who are seriously underfunded (while May is Prime Minister).
Corbyn is right that those people breaking the law should be punished. It's just a shame that, because of Theresa May's lack of action there are so many of them, here in the UK.
If they have fought for ISIS (or anyone else) abroad, and doing that is illegal, they should be charged. [To my shame, I'll admit that I don't even know if it is illegal to fight abroad (other than for our armed forces). I think it is. I certainly think it should be].
If they haven't fought, but have expressed support for ISIS, I think they should be watched, investigated, interrogated. And if they've broken the law in any way, they should be charged. But, even though ISIS is pretty much the most abhorrent, despicable group imaginable, I don't think it should be illegal to "express support" for it. (Although, to be clear, expressing support for ISIS *must* mark someone out as a person that needs to be investigated).
If they are a member of ISIS, they should be jailed. If it's not already, ISIS should be proscribed and membership illegal.
To be clear, someone expressing their opinion isn't breaking the law. Someone acting on their opinion might be. Someone encouraging others to act on their opinion might be. But one of the freedoms we have in the UK - and we need to protect - is this freedom of expression, even if we are vehemently opposed to it.
There are plenty of laws in place to prosecute both returning jihadis and fellow travellers...2 -
If May was still Home Secretary her position would be utterly untenable. The buck of keeping people safe falls well and truly at her feet and her response for the past couple of weeks has been to hide under her desk with her fingers in her ears. Her record and her actions in the past two weeks speak for themselves. She must go.1
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Good! In that case it's clear: if you're returning from abroad having fought in a war (other than as part of UK forces) you go to jail. And I would hope and expect anyone assisting them is also dealt with by conspiracy laws.NornIrishAddick said:
It has been an offence since the 19th Century.Chizz said:
To me this is really clear. It's simply a case of what the law says.Greenie Junior said:
Whilst what you're saying is relevant, do the quotes not slightly worry you? Do you agree with this opinion that these Isis supporters shouldn't be treated like criminals for essentially expressing an opinion? (genuine question, not trying to go for you as such)Chizz said:
Interesting spin by Order Order on what Corbyn says in that video.Greenie Junior said:Not good viewing at all. You could argue that the majority of this country have not just woken up to the very real threat and seen the damage of under funding police can do, hopefully the government will now see that they simply have to fund extra officers. After yesterday's statement, I'd give them the chance to show this. Obviously this opinion could change in the coming days if nothing is done/pledged in the remaining days of the campaign.
I also think this should be seen, some quite worrying quotes on Corbyns stance with ISIS supporters, I understand what he's saying, but you have to make an exception with these people who show support on terror, I think the majority of the country will now agree that it should be a criminal offence. This for me sums my feelings of Corbyn, Abbott McDonnell etc up, they keep going back on their beliefs, Ira ("I don't have the same hair as I did then and I don't have the same views" - Abbott, Corbyn on trident, Corbyn on shoot to kill') id imagine he will be out swiftly to say his opinion has changed on this too. I feel as though he's hiding his true opinions and views to get into power and to me that's quite worrying.
https://order-order.com/2017/06/05/corbyn-defended-fighters-returning-from-syria/
It should also be noted that the Jihadis whom he's referring to were in the main encouraged by MI6 (while Cameron was Prime Minister) to fight in Syria and Libya to help in the overthrow of Assad and Gadaffi. And the same ones who returned to the UK and "lost" by MI5 (while May was Home Secretary), and who can't be tracked by the police or MI5 who are seriously underfunded (while May is Prime Minister).
Corbyn is right that those people breaking the law should be punished. It's just a shame that, because of Theresa May's lack of action there are so many of them, here in the UK.
If they have fought for ISIS (or anyone else) abroad, and doing that is illegal, they should be charged. [To my shame, I'll admit that I don't even know if it is illegal to fight abroad (other than for our armed forces). I think it is. I certainly think it should be].
If they haven't fought, but have expressed support for ISIS, I think they should be watched, investigated, interrogated. And if they've broken the law in any way, they should be charged. But, even though ISIS is pretty much the most abhorrent, despicable group imaginable, I don't think it should be illegal to "express support" for it. (Although, to be clear, expressing support for ISIS *must* mark someone out as a person that needs to be investigated).
If they are a member of ISIS, they should be jailed. If it's not already, ISIS should be proscribed and membership illegal.
To be clear, someone expressing their opinion isn't breaking the law. Someone acting on their opinion might be. Someone encouraging others to act on their opinion might be. But one of the freedoms we have in the UK - and we need to protect - is this freedom of expression, even if we are vehemently opposed to it.
There are plenty of laws in place to prosecute both returning jihadis and fellow travellers...1 -
Wow...where do you begin with that one? Truly, truly despicable comment and then follows up as the one who has been aggrieved.seth plum said:This is a serving Conservative MP called Sheryll Murray. This was filmed at a hustings when she was trying to persuade people to vote for her.
For those of you considering voting Tory, this is the kind of person who will be ruling over you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8aRD9DNDsI4 -
Absolutely shamefulseth plum said:This is a serving Conservative MP called Sheryll Murray. This was filmed at a hustings when she was trying to persuade people to vote for her.
For those of you considering voting Tory, this is the kind of person who will be ruling over you.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8aRD9DNDsI1 - Sponsored links:
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When the last Labour government lost power, it had it's anti-terrorist laws watered down by the coalition. Both parties in coalition said they supported this. The Conservatives had the opportunity to beef them up again when they won full power and didn't.
http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2014/01/24/the-government-has-put-the-public-at-needless-increased-risk/
People should read this report from 2014 and note the picture of 'enough is enough' May on it. Cutting police numbers, watering down terrorist laws designed to protect us. It is incredible.3 -
I think you might have to accept Mutley that not everyone believes the costing's in the Labour Manifesto....MuttleyCAFC said:I think the Labour manifesto showed how they planned to do it - so yes, you can do it.
Just on police numbers, clearly stupid to have reduced the numbers, right? However it can be a bit of statistics being bent to suit the propaganda around terrorism.
So how many of the 20,000 are front line police, does anyone know? Or indeed how many cuts have been made to counter terrorism officers?
How do the current, reduced, number of police compare to 15 years ago? (it's actually broadly the same now).
There's been a reduction in PCSO's which haven't been the success in todays society that had been envisaged when they were brought in by labour in 2002. Ask any police office at that time and very few then, like now, think they are a good idea. However if you said 2x PCSO's are worth one Police Officer we have vastly more now than 15 years ago.
Armed officers, there's a huge recruitment drive for armed officer training at the moment, particularly in the MET and has been for a couple of years. The biggest difficulty is getting officers prepared to do it, not from a concern for their own physical safety but their fear of getting prosecuted if they shoot someone.
Since late 2014/early 2015 the met have been increasing the officers trained to use firearms, initially that part of the budget (SO19) was protected and increased although not 100% sure if that is still the case, but believe it to be.
A lot of the 'old' expenditure has been reduced as housing allowance went some years back and the changes to overtime for newer recruits over the last 10-15 years. I can remember the days of when my mate did Notting Hill Carnival, he would do a 15 hour shift all three days, earn triple time and get a day off in lieu for the bank holiday. So almost a months money and a day off........ Not so common now maybe but his P60 most years was in excess of £70k as were a lot of the TSG as they effectively had unlimited overtime. Then he was a constable.
From knowing a few people deeply involved as either counter terrorism officer or firearms officers none have ever talked of lack of personnel to me, it's more 'general policing' where it is felt we are lacking in numbers.
I'd personally like to see more police in the community and more for counter terrorism, would having another 100 armed officers in London made much of a difference at the weekend? Probably not.......2 -
Isn't this a scandal? Is it ok with everybody?MuttleyCAFC said:When the last Labour government lost power, it had it's anti-terrorist laws watered down by the coalition. Both parties in coalition said they supported this. The Conservatives had the opportunity to beef them up again when they won full power and didn't.
http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2014/01/24/the-government-has-put-the-public-at-needless-increased-risk/
People should read this report from 2014 and note the picture of 'enough is enough' May on it. Cutting police numbers, watering down terrorist laws designed to protect us. It is incredible.0 -
It's not that he refuses to take on terrorism, he is suggesting a different approach. This is not an enemy you can go and just bomb, invade or even negotiate with for many reasons, not least because that plays to their narrative. You have to remove the route causes such as appeal,a shift in foreign policy, financing and selling arms to unstable regions. He is the first leader to be talking about ungoverned spaces and has been asking questions about Saudi Arabia for years.Dazzler21 said:That I agree with 100%.
I question if we could start by trying to take at least one of them alive in future. We all know that the vests forced the police's hand in having to go for kill shots. Just one of them living could have turned out so much evidence.
Now we don't know if their vests are real or fake, whether they're going to run us over, blow us up, stab or shoot us.
We're in a dark, dark place. We need a PM with guts to take on the issue.
May is all talk and no trousers and Corbyn refuses to take on terrorism...
We're f***ed
When I was younger it was the UN that used to deal with ungoverned spaces such as Yugoslavia and parts of Africa, but things like first Gulf war and Black Hawk Down hardened public opinion against intervention. Bush/Blair made it the meaningless husk it is today.5 -
You have taken everything that bellend says as gospel?newyorkaddick said:
The UK runs a persistent structural current account deficit - without these types of very 'sticky' capital inflows from overseas, sterling would be considerably weaker than it is with various negative implications (inflation, lower purchasing power etc.).Callumcafc said:
Unfortunately the Gulf states have enormous cash reserves which they need to put to work and we should be grateful for the investment.
For example he describes the Emirates cable car as an indispensable form of transport. He bangs on about the Shard. I know he loves it, not surprised, as it is a massive dickwaving exercise. Do we need it? Why? Is it full yet, btw? He reminds us that the Qataris own the Olympic Village. We now know that there was a different plan for the Olympic Site, including McAlpine owning the stadium outright. Last time I looked, McAlpine were a very British company. As for Harrods, its a shop. It has always been a private enterprise, and compared to say, M&S, its contribution to the British economy is minimal.
You have a good general point about inward investment, but if you claim we should be "grateful" for Middle Eastern investment based on what that idiot says, you look weak on facts, which is unlike you.
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She even wants the police to kick the constituent out.TelMc32 said:
Wow...where do you begin with that one? Truly, truly despicable comment and then follows up as the one who has been aggrieved.seth plum said:This is a serving Conservative MP called Sheryll Murray. This was filmed at a hustings when she was trying to persuade people to vote for her.
For those of you considering voting Tory, this is the kind of person who will be ruling over you.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8aRD9DNDsI0 -
Capitalist tries to scare you with they don't want to make money out of you?PragueAddick said:
You have taken everything that bellend says as gospel?newyorkaddick said:
The UK runs a persistent structural current account deficit - without these types of very 'sticky' capital inflows from overseas, sterling would be considerably weaker than it is with various negative implications (inflation, lower purchasing power etc.).Callumcafc said:
Unfortunately the Gulf states have enormous cash reserves which they need to put to work and we should be grateful for the investment.
For example he describes the Emirates cable car as an indispensable form of transport. He bangs on about the Shard. I know he loves it, not surprised, as it is a massive dickwaving exercise. Do we need it? Why? Is it full yet, btw? He reminds us that the Qataris own the Olympic Village. We now know that there was a different plan for the Olympic Site, including McAlpine owning the stadium outright. Last time I looked, McAlpine were a very British company. As for Harrods, its a shop. It has always been a private enterprise, and compared to say, M&S, its contribution to the British economy is minimal.
You have a good general point about inward investment, but if you claim we should be "grateful" for Middle Eastern investment based on what that idiot says, you look weak on facts, which is unlike you.0 -
As I posted on the 'Major incident at London Bridge' thread effectively all of the things you list are illegal now.Chizz said:
To me this is really clear. It's simply a case of what the law says.Greenie Junior said:
Whilst what you're saying is relevant, do the quotes not slightly worry you? Do you agree with this opinion that these Isis supporters shouldn't be treated like criminals for essentially expressing an opinion? (genuine question, not trying to go for you as such)Chizz said:
Interesting spin by Order Order on what Corbyn says in that video.Greenie Junior said:Not good viewing at all. You could argue that the majority of this country have not just woken up to the very real threat and seen the damage of under funding police can do, hopefully the government will now see that they simply have to fund extra officers. After yesterday's statement, I'd give them the chance to show this. Obviously this opinion could change in the coming days if nothing is done/pledged in the remaining days of the campaign.
I also think this should be seen, some quite worrying quotes on Corbyns stance with ISIS supporters, I understand what he's saying, but you have to make an exception with these people who show support on terror, I think the majority of the country will now agree that it should be a criminal offence. This for me sums my feelings of Corbyn, Abbott McDonnell etc up, they keep going back on their beliefs, Ira ("I don't have the same hair as I did then and I don't have the same views" - Abbott, Corbyn on trident, Corbyn on shoot to kill') id imagine he will be out swiftly to say his opinion has changed on this too. I feel as though he's hiding his true opinions and views to get into power and to me that's quite worrying.
https://order-order.com/2017/06/05/corbyn-defended-fighters-returning-from-syria/
It should also be noted that the Jihadis whom he's referring to were in the main encouraged by MI6 (while Cameron was Prime Minister) to fight in Syria and Libya to help in the overthrow of Assad and Gadaffi. And the same ones who returned to the UK and "lost" by MI5 (while May was Home Secretary), and who can't be tracked by the police or MI5 who are seriously underfunded (while May is Prime Minister).
Corbyn is right that those people breaking the law should be punished. It's just a shame that, because of Theresa May's lack of action there are so many of them, here in the UK.
If they have fought for ISIS (or anyone else) abroad, and doing that is illegal, they should be charged. [To my shame, I'll admit that I don't even know if it is illegal to fight abroad (other than for our armed forces). I think it is. I certainly think it should be].
If they haven't fought, but have expressed support for ISIS, I think they should be watched, investigated, interrogated. And if they've broken the law in any way, they should be charged. But, even though ISIS is pretty much the most abhorrent, despicable group imaginable, I don't think it should be illegal to "express support" for it. (Although, to be clear, expressing support for ISIS *must* mark someone out as a person that needs to be investigated).
If they are a member of ISIS, they should be jailed. If it's not already, ISIS should be proscribed and membership illegal.
To be clear, someone expressing their opinion isn't breaking the law. Someone acting on their opinion might be. Someone encouraging others to act on their opinion might be. But one of the freedoms we have in the UK - and we need to protect - is this freedom of expression, even if we are vehemently opposed to it.
The link below list all current UK counter terrorism laws with a summary of what they cover plus links to the actual laws themselves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_Acts#List_of_legislation1 -
I know an ex policeman too - got a different picture from him than your ones!Rob7Lee said:
I think you might have to accept Mutley that not everyone believes the costing's in the Labour Manifesto....MuttleyCAFC said:I think the Labour manifesto showed how they planned to do it - so yes, you can do it.
Just on police numbers, clearly stupid to have reduced the numbers, right? However it can be a bit of statistics being bent to suit the propaganda around terrorism.
So how many of the 20,000 are front line police, does anyone know? Or indeed how many cuts have been made to counter terrorism officers?
How do the current, reduced, number of police compare to 15 years ago? (it's actually broadly the same now).
There's been a reduction in PCSO's which haven't been the success in todays society that had been envisaged when they were brought in by labour in 2002. Ask any police office at that time and very few then, like now, think they are a good idea. However if you said 2x PCSO's are worth one Police Officer we have vastly more now than 15 years ago.
Armed officers, there's a huge recruitment drive for armed officer training at the moment, particularly in the MET and has been for a couple of years. The biggest difficulty is getting officers prepared to do it, not from a concern for their own physical safety but their fear of getting prosecuted if they shoot someone.
Since late 2014/early 2015 the met have been increasing the officers trained to use firearms, initially that part of the budget (SO19) was protected and increased although not 100% sure if that is still the case, but believe it to be.
A lot of the 'old' expenditure has been reduced as housing allowance went some years back and the changes to overtime for newer recruits over the last 10-15 years. I can remember the days of when my mate did Notting Hill Carnival, he would do a 15 hour shift all three days, earn triple time and get a day off in lieu for the bank holiday. So almost a months money and a day off........ Not so common now maybe but his P60 most years was in excess of £70k as were a lot of the TSG as they effectively had unlimited overtime. Then he was a constable.
From knowing a few people deeply involved as either counter terrorism officer or firearms officers none have ever talked of lack of personnel to me, it's more 'general policing' where it is felt we are lacking in numbers.
I'd personally like to see more police in the community and more for counter terrorism, would having another 100 armed officers in London made much of a difference at the weekend? Probably not.......
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Cordoban Addick said:
This was in the Telegraph about a year ago but was pulled (according to Guido Fawkes, the Tory blogger, due to pressure from her team).
I think it shows what most Tories think of her and perhaps shows why she has such a dearth of talent around her e.g. Fallon & Green come across as easily bullied. It is worth the read.
http://www.rogercee.com/theresa-may-article-significance/
That's a very telling article4 - Sponsored links:
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Someone of twitter described the Conservative manifesto as the vaguest suicide note in history if she did blow itblackpool72 said:If Labour do manage to pull it off it will make May's decision to call an early election one of the biggest fuckups off all time.
I can't see it happening but you never know1 -
am I the only one who can't wait for 22.00.01 on Thursday?0
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If the Tories won with a reduced but workable majority it would still be a success as we would be rid of this incompetent leader. I can't believe there are tories out there who can't see how rubbish she is. This is an important period for our country and it would be the ultimate misfortune to have her at the helm during it!2
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Not really looking forward to that moment, because right now there is still some hope.LargeAddick said:am I the only one who can't wait for 22.00.01 on Thursday?
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the Tories should have won this election at a canter but have shot themselves in the foot time and time again. I'm actually wondering if the ploy is to let Labour sneak in, let them really fuck things up and then win with a massive landslide in 2022.2
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I don't think there will be many Tories who would disagree that if this was David Cameron in charge, the election would be already won.MuttleyCAFC said:If the Tories won with a reduced but workable majority it would still be a success as we would be rid of this incompetent leader. I can't believe there are tories out there who can't see how rubbish she is. This is an important period for our country and it would be the ultimate misfortune to have her at the helm during it!
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Disgruntled ex employeeMuttleyCAFC said:
I know an ex policeman too - got a different picture from him than your ones!Rob7Lee said:
I think you might have to accept Mutley that not everyone believes the costing's in the Labour Manifesto....MuttleyCAFC said:I think the Labour manifesto showed how they planned to do it - so yes, you can do it.
Just on police numbers, clearly stupid to have reduced the numbers, right? However it can be a bit of statistics being bent to suit the propaganda around terrorism.
So how many of the 20,000 are front line police, does anyone know? Or indeed how many cuts have been made to counter terrorism officers?
How do the current, reduced, number of police compare to 15 years ago? (it's actually broadly the same now).
There's been a reduction in PCSO's which haven't been the success in todays society that had been envisaged when they were brought in by labour in 2002. Ask any police office at that time and very few then, like now, think they are a good idea. However if you said 2x PCSO's are worth one Police Officer we have vastly more now than 15 years ago.
Armed officers, there's a huge recruitment drive for armed officer training at the moment, particularly in the MET and has been for a couple of years. The biggest difficulty is getting officers prepared to do it, not from a concern for their own physical safety but their fear of getting prosecuted if they shoot someone.
Since late 2014/early 2015 the met have been increasing the officers trained to use firearms, initially that part of the budget (SO19) was protected and increased although not 100% sure if that is still the case, but believe it to be.
A lot of the 'old' expenditure has been reduced as housing allowance went some years back and the changes to overtime for newer recruits over the last 10-15 years. I can remember the days of when my mate did Notting Hill Carnival, he would do a 15 hour shift all three days, earn triple time and get a day off in lieu for the bank holiday. So almost a months money and a day off........ Not so common now maybe but his P60 most years was in excess of £70k as were a lot of the TSG as they effectively had unlimited overtime. Then he was a constable.
From knowing a few people deeply involved as either counter terrorism officer or firearms officers none have ever talked of lack of personnel to me, it's more 'general policing' where it is felt we are lacking in numbers.
I'd personally like to see more police in the community and more for counter terrorism, would having another 100 armed officers in London made much of a difference at the weekend? Probably not....... I'm sure there's varying views, my mates ex TSG and currently a firearms office but was at the depeche mode concert so got to London Bridge early morning, his sisters quite a senior inspector in the counter terrorism unit, but I'm sure there are differing views was just trying to pass on one that isn't just rolled out to suit a story (talking of the press here). 0 -
Afternoon Theresa!!LargeAddick said:am I the only one who can't wait for 22.00.01 on Thursday?
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Another PM that the public didn't elect?MuttleyCAFC said:If the Tories won with a reduced but workable majority it would still be a success as we would be rid of this incompetent leader. I can't believe there are tories out there who can't see how rubbish she is. This is an important period for our country and it would be the ultimate misfortune to have her at the helm during it!
0
