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IAAF World Championships London 2017

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  • charltonkeston
    charltonkeston Posts: 7,362
    McBobbin said:

    What about men who have more testosterone?

    MrOneLung said:

    charltonkeston said:

    I felt sorry for Muir tonight, she was beaten fairly by two athletes. The other athlete had an advantage that women don't normally have. Not a nice thing to say but it doesn't seem a level field to me.

    What about a man with larger than normal lungs or a slower natural heart rate that gets an advantage other men don't normally have?
    I think I'm not the only one in the world to think something is wrong and questions have been asked in the past.
    Both of you used a man as an example, I'm not suggesting Senenya is a man but is she a little bit more than a woman? There is certainty enough doubt there as she was suspended a few years back pending tests.
  • Athletico Charlton
    Athletico Charlton Posts: 14,274
    edited August 2017
    golfaddick said:

    killerandflash said:

    rina said:

    That was about as good a race as you can get

    Laura Muir didn't run a good race tactically, she'll regret that

    Of course this race has the whole Senenya controversy as well...
    Only caught a bit of the interview with Senenya, but listening & seeing "her" I would say there is definitely an issue there. JEH said about the same & that Senenya's testosterone levels are high.

    Then again, I think Muir ran a bad race & should have got a medal if she'd paced it properly.
    I really don't get the Semenya argument tbh and thought it made for uncomfortable watching and sour grapes before the race. Some runners have longer legs, some more stamina, more capacity to take pain, some higher testosterone etc etc. It is the luck of the gods. As long as you are not putting additional drugs into your body to cheat then there is no issue.

    Semenya may be 'lucky' in respect to athletic performance. She does not deserve all the stigma that goes with it though and I give her the utmost respect for going out there and competing with all the abuse she gets.

    Muir is young and will come good, yesterday she ran a poor tactical race.
  • nth_london_addick
    nth_london_addick Posts: 35,919
    Semenya definitely has an unfair advantage and it's not the sam as long legs or bigger lungs the easiest way for it to be regulated is to find what is the normal level of testosterone in a woman and make anyone running over those limits take drugs to reduce them to that level

    The same for men if it's happening there as well

    And so what if it's de hancing an athletes natural ability it's about leveling the field
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,846
    The problem is, that there's a simple split between men and women in sport due to their different biology, and through no fault of her own, her biology doesn't fit 100% into the women's category. I don't know what the solution is.
  • kigelia
    kigelia Posts: 2,582
    If semenya was competing in the javelin or hammer there would be no discussion at all I am sure. Since she competes in events where the competitors are a lot smaller and less muscular than her questions are raised, but tests have shown her to be female, that should be the end of it.

    I was speaking a week or two back who is an expert on gender issues and she was saying that currently scientists are seeing gender as far less binary than was previously thought and people appear almost on a continuum in their genetic makeup regardless of their anatomical features which distinguish them as male or female.

    On a separate issue if those booing Gatlin think he is the only person in that 100m final who is/was taking substances to enhance their performance they are deluding themselves.

  • IT_Andy
    IT_Andy Posts: 477
    kigelia said:

    If semenya was competing in the javelin or hammer there would be no discussion at all I am sure. Since she competes in events where the competitors are a lot smaller and less muscular than her questions are raised, but tests have shown her to be female, that should be the end of it.

    I was speaking a week or two back who is an expert on gender issues and she was saying that currently scientists are seeing gender as far less binary than was previously thought and people appear almost on a continuum in their genetic makeup regardless of their anatomical features which distinguish them as male or female.

    On a separate issue if those booing Gatlin think he is the only person in that 100m final who is/was taking substances to enhance their performance they are deluding themselves.

    Sorry, I dont fully understand what your saying. Do you mean that the genetic makup is smaller than first thought, between someone like Semenya and other women?

    On the Gatlin point your right many others have taken performance enhancing drugs and as I mentioned before Blake had failed test overturned. Also questions are constantly being asked around doctors associated with athletes.
  • GD78
    GD78 Posts: 132
    We're going on Thursday night. Can anyone that has been let me know what it has been like getting in and out of the stadium? Also any tips on where we can get something to eat? I assume its the normal overpriced stuff?

    We are getting the high speed to and from Ebbsfleet.
  • McBobbin
    McBobbin Posts: 12,051
    it's genetically unfair that I'm too big to be a championship jockey, or too short to be a decent basketball player, and too inept at doing either.
  • cafcfan1990
    cafcfan1990 Posts: 12,811
    kigelia said:

    If semenya was competing in the javelin or hammer there would be no discussion at all I am sure. Since she competes in events where the competitors are a lot smaller and less muscular than her questions are raised, but tests have shown her to be female, that should be the end of it.

    I was speaking a week or two back who is an expert on gender issues and she was saying that currently scientists are seeing gender as far less binary than was previously thought and people appear almost on a continuum in their genetic makeup regardless of their anatomical features which distinguish them as male or female.

    On a separate issue if those booing Gatlin think he is the only person in that 100m final who is/was taking substances to enhance their performance they are deluding themselves.

    Doesn't mean its right though. Athletics, like Cycling has had such controversy over the last few years that people will jump on the bandwagon without knowing the full facts or looking at the whole picture.
  • Athletico Charlton
    Athletico Charlton Posts: 14,274
    GD78 said:

    We're going on Thursday night. Can anyone that has been let me know what it has been like getting in and out of the stadium? Also any tips on where we can get something to eat? I assume its the normal overpriced stuff?

    We are getting the high speed to and from Ebbsfleet.

    Get there early, get in the queue early. I was there opening night and it started at 6pm. Got there for 4.30 but had to wait for someone else who's ticket I had and did not arrive until 6.05 by which time there was a 45 minute queue to get in. Next to gate 5 there is a little park with kids activities if you have family going. There are plenty of places to eat in the shopping centre or you can get a overpriced hot dog etc in the stadium.

    I moved to a row end for Mo'smedal ceremony and bolted out immediately after,huge amounts of people not surprisingly but I found it moved pretty quickly.
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  • Bolderhumphreyreid
    Bolderhumphreyreid Posts: 2,553
    GD78 said:

    We're going on Thursday night. Can anyone that has been let me know what it has been like getting in and out of the stadium? Also any tips on where we can get something to eat? I assume its the normal overpriced stuff?

    We are getting the high speed to and from Ebbsfleet.

    Went last night. I found the whole experience excellent.

    Friendly staff/volunteers, decent amount of bars and food outlets within the stadium and many without queues. The exit was very quick as everyone walks at a fast pace towards the station and there were no problems getting on a train.

    Have a great time.
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,846
    Bolderhumphreyreid said:

    GD78 said:

    We're going on Thursday night. Can anyone that has been let me know what it has been like getting in and out of the stadium? Also any tips on where we can get something to eat? I assume its the normal overpriced stuff?

    We are getting the high speed to and from Ebbsfleet.

    Went last night. I found the whole experience excellent.

    Friendly staff/volunteers, decent amount of bars and food outlets within the stadium and many without queues. The exit was very quick as everyone walks at a fast pace towards the station and there were no problems getting on a train.

    Have a great time.
    Great

    I'll be there on Thursday as well. Slightly annoyed as I wanted to be by the triple jump pit but ended up on the other side of the stadium at the start of the finishing straight. Better for the 200m though!
  • IT_Andy
    IT_Andy Posts: 477
    edited August 2017
    GD78 said:

    We're going on Thursday night. Can anyone that has been let me know what it has been like getting in and out of the stadium? Also any tips on where we can get something to eat? I assume its the normal overpriced stuff?

    We are getting the high speed to and from Ebbsfleet.

    Wasnt an issue getting in. I went Saturday night and got off at Stratford International (DLR) and walked left, then over the bridge and turned right towards the stadium where everyone else was heading, from Stratford, via Westfield.

    Going again tonight and Thursday. Will be looking to get some food myself and from Saturday's experience it had plenty of outlets to food from.
    The usual burgers or hot dogs stuff from the stadium outlets and extra places on the outside area.
    Prices were normal charges with a Heineken beer and bottled water costing me around £7 I think.

    Made me laugh seeing the signs for Trevor Brooking and Bobby Morore stands, when clearly their not separated, only one big ring!
    Still think they were better off staying and rebuilding Boleyn.
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 52,002
    I'm also going on Thursday.
  • rina
    rina Posts: 2,334
    Semenya used to have to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels until an Indian sprinter in the same situation challenged this. the IAAF were given 2 years to prove that testosterone aided women's athletics performance. I think that the 2 years is now up and they failed to provide any proof
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    Semenya is not female but not male either. She has a genetic advantage different to having the longest legs, longer arms/feet in swimming. It is not her fault and there is no easy answer. Closest is possibly taking drugs to reduce the testosterone which diminished her performance when she had to take them before. Not 100% proof as could be the psychological effect of having to take them etc, but near as damn it
  • harveys_gardener
    harveys_gardener Posts: 7,038
    Farce with african athlete being refused entry to stadium with no official explanation. Germans who were struck down with virus ok. Lord Coe showing himself to be a total wanker. Racist? Show us you aren't. Cant remember too many pictures of him embracing black British athletes.
  • SELR_addicks
    SELR_addicks Posts: 15,446
    PrincessFiona said:

    Semenya is not female but not male either. She has a genetic advantage different to having the longest legs, longer arms/feet in swimming. It is not her fault and there is no easy answer. Closest is possibly taking drugs to reduce the testosterone which diminished her performance when she had to take them before. Not 100% proof as could be the psychological effect of having to take them etc, but near as damn it

    Is being tall not a genetic advantage?

    Bolt is too tall we must cut his legs off to be the exact same size as Gaitlin.

    It's a dumb reasoning for people that are trying to claim that Semenya is a man. The IAAF cleared her to compete and she's never failed a drug test.

    People also need to look up https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/28/sports/international/dutee-chand-female-sprinter-with-high-male-hormone-level-wins-right-to-compete.html

    "The ruling found that there was a lack of evidence provided that testosterone increased female athletic performance and notified the IAAF that it had two years to provide the evidence." Two years have passed and no evidence has been provided.
  • MrOneLung
    MrOneLung Posts: 26,853
    PrincessFiona said:

    Semenya is not female but not male either. She has a genetic advantage different to having the longest legs, longer arms/feet in swimming. It is not her fault and there is no easy answer. Closest is possibly taking drugs to reduce the testosterone which diminished her performance when she had to take them before. Not 100% proof as could be the psychological effect of having to take them etc, but near as damn it

    Er, yes she is female.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    She is not not female, she is between female and male. 100% females do not have testes, albeit internal. There is an advantage in higher testosterone which can be controlled unlike height etc which is not comparable. That's why it is banned if taken and gives an advantage of 1.8 in females which is a few seconds in a women's 1500. As I said before, it is not her fault. There are (at least) 4 sexes and she happens to be one which is not catered for in the male/female categorisations that cover over most people and used in athletics.
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  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    Semenya has an intersex condition, meaning her body doesn’t conform to typical notions of male or female. The South African runner produces testosterone at a level much higher than what’s found in most women, prompting questions about whether she has an unfair biological advantage
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,846
    Urgh, another 4th place
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    Bless him, he did so well. Above expectations. He finished so strong, maybe if he'd closer in contact but then maybe he wouldn't have finished so strong?
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,846
    PrincessFiona said:

    Bless him, he did so well. Above expectations. He finished so strong, maybe if he'd closer in contact but then maybe he wouldn't have finished so strong?

    If he'd started his sprint a second earlier, he'd have got the bronze as he still had plenty in the tank
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    Yes, I think so. Got a wee bit too far back. He's young and will learn with experience. Gutted but one for the future. Got character which I hope won't be diminished by expectations which seems to have affected some
  • newyorkaddick
    newyorkaddick Posts: 3,052
    Middle distance running is great to watch - so tactical....used to think the fastest in the race should just belt it to the finish line and be done with it.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    Much prefer middle distance races to the 100m. I get why others think differently but just don't agree
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    Allegations of food poisoning, happened before? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/04/all-blacks-were-poisoned-before-1995-rugby-cup---mandela-bodygua/
  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,625
    PrincessFiona said:

    Allegations of food poisoning, happened before? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/04/all-blacks-were-poisoned-before-1995-rugby-cup---mandela-bodygua/

    Don't forget lasagnagate for Spurs.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,447
    There are some circumstances and nationalities more likely than others?
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