Look, we have a poster who has some sort of twisted idea that he is being patriotic when the rest of us aren't. We are currently in a situation where all sides, Brexiters and Remainers can see it is a mess that should worry everybody who loves this country and he claims to be enjoying it all! Perfectly reasonable for that to be challenged as strongly as people wish to IMO.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel according to Samuel Johnson in 1775. I share his opinion and believe that it is more relevant than ever today, although perhaps it is time to update the final word.
Bordering on libellous and defamation I would think.
How, exactly?
1. LAW defame (someone) by publishing a libel. "the jury found that he was libelled by a newspaper" synonyms: defame, malign, slander, give someone a bad name, blacken someone's name, sully someone's reputation, speak ill/evil of, write false reports about, traduce, smear, cast aspersions on, fling mud at, drag someone's name through the mud/mire, besmirch, tarnish, taint, do a hatchet job on, tell lies about, spread tales about, spread scandal about, stain, vilify, calumniate, denigrate, disparage, run down, derogate, stigmatize, discredit, slight; More
It would be great if all sides could refrain from the 'personals' tbh but equally it's almost inevitable when discussing something so important and so polar that sometimes some people cross the line. For the most part the discussion remains civil enough in comparison to other places, which is to all our credit.
It would also be great if, instead of just trawling for a reaction as certain posters on here (this thread) seem to do exclusively, they actually contributed something positive to counter the constant negativity that those in the Remain side are accussed of. Contrary to perception I'm sure most Remainers would be happy to consider some good news about Brexit (that's factual, not rhetorical, wishful thinking or just regurgitated Leave campaigning).
Well I would really like my good and often wise friend @Dippenhall to explain why the long term and pervasive problem of U.K. Productivity - which he highlighted as being more of a factor in GDP performance than concerns about Brexit - can only be solved by leaving the EU. I asked him that, very specifically. Answer have I none. So it is not surprising that reasonable and reasoned Remainers on here conclude that the Brexiteers are just running on empty, when it comes to rational argument for leaving.
Just for the record, I think no deal is the most likely option, neither side can, for differing reasons (Theresa May because she cannot command the support of the House, and the EU27, because the UK proposals would require the EU to restructure and undermine itself, with all the attendant treaty changes, to accommodate a third party), seem to compromise enough to agree even a Withdrawal deal.
There seems to be a desire on the UK part to renegotiate what has already been agreed (particularly the Irish border backstop), allied to a failure to recognise that, for the EU, regulatory compliance is at least as important as tariffs in the management of a Single Market (as a result of which, UK proposals are routinely dismissed as inadequate, because they are philosophically incomplete). There really isn't time for such manoeuvrings.
The prospects of political agreement on a future trading arrangement seem equally bleak.
Of course, all this is fine in a week when it appears that Northern Ireland is on the brink of recession, something that can only help make things, already wonderful here, so much better....
Back a couple of years May was asking the EU to be 'creative' in coming up with border solutions, suggesting none of her own. Two years later still no suggested solutions and the new term is that the EU should 'evolve' a border solution. The UK voted leave. The UK should suggest a solution. It isn't even the erroneous suggestion from @Dippenhall that the E,U is being childish, it is about the UK leaving and still expecting others to second guess a suitable solution. Now that's what's childish.
Just for the record, I think no deal is the most likely option, neither side can, for differing reasons (Theresa May because she cannot command the support of the House, and the EU27, because the UK proposals would require the EU to restructure and undermine itself, with all the attendant treaty changes, to accommodate a third party), seem to compromise enough to agree even a Withdrawal deal.
There seems to be a desire on the UK part to renegotiate what has already been agreed (particularly the Irish border backstop), allied to a failure to recognise that, for the EU, regulatory compliance is at least as important as tariffs in the management of a Single Market (as a result of which, UK proposals are routinely dismissed as inadequate, because they are philosophically incomplete). There really isn't time for such manoeuvrings.
The prospects of political agreement on a future trading arrangement seem equally bleak.
Of course, all this is fine in a week when it appears that Northern Ireland is on the brink of recession, something that can only help make things, already wonderful here, so much better....
I agree although what we will be told is that we an agreed exit but what it will be in fact is a Hard Brexit by another name, a Habban perhaps.
Or the adults will come to their senses and rethink the whole thing, but that is more hope on my part.
So it sounds like May’s “Chequers compromise” which would almost certainly be rejected by Brussels now won’t even make it that far after she has caved it to Brexiteers and has agreed to amendments to the Customs Bill - some of which seem to directly contradict the plan she came up with a couple of weeks ago.
Absolute shambles.
You can support it or not, but this is beyond belief. I really can't see how this shambles of a government can continue. This is people's livliehoods at stake here, whether you support Brexit or Remain. I think it is coming down to the two things - leaving with nothing or not leaving at all. What is needed, and everybody should support this, is a clarification of what people actually want via a clear second people's vote. Whatever the outcome, politicians need to be aware what the people are instructing.
I honestly think what is
Labour are playing it long on this because they are worried about the views of the Labour voting hard brexiteers mainly in the north. It's your last bullet point that is their big conundrum
I agree, freedom of movement is the big issue in all of this. It stems back to Cameron’s “I’ll reduce immigration to tens of thousands” things a few years ago which legitimised the idea that immigration is bad.
If I were Labour leader I would change the lens and re-cast immigration as a good thing that creates a net benefit to our country economically, socially and culturally. Not only is it true but that way you no are no longer shackled to Cameron’s mistake meaning you are now free to come to a sensible deal with the EU which keeps the four freedoms intact.
Great post. Immigration is an overwhelmingly good thing in my opinion.
what !!! did you not see the net migration figures yesterday. 286,000 last year. Thats over 1 million in 4 years.....so by 2030 thats another 3.5 million. And then thats without them having any offspring (vast majority of people entering are of child rearing age).
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
It is madness & it has to stop.
No sir, you have to stop. The UK has full employment and 750,000 vacancies. It does not have the capability nor the budget to train up enough school leavers and enough university graduates to meet the demand and this is why organisations such as the NHS have thousands of vacancies. Some of these are filled by immigrants.
One could observe that the UK is facing a demographic time bomb by 2025-2030 and that changes are required to either public provision (And associated taxation). Or one could argue that old people can no longer make claim on the state. For the numbers are far bigger than the immigration equation. Millions more with the potential to require social care.
Blaming immigrants and blaming Labour for what was a global financial crash is what got us into this mess. Throughout the US, UK and Germany the centre right have taken an out of control financial sector and successfully converted that into the perceived need for fiscal discipline and austerity. Whilst the politics changed, the banks were recapitalised and all European banks lending to Greece were bailed out in full! We didn't need austerity and never will - it's quite simply the wrong policy response.
Something I came across recently was that the three biggest banks in each of France, Germany and the Netherlands had balance sheets the same size as national GDP! And that one third of those balance sheets was tied up in impaired assets linked to the PIGS. So the ECB and national governments bailed out those banks as they were too big to fail. So the PIGS bonds changed hands at way more than market value transferring a private bank risk into a massive increase in debt:GDP.
And then they asked the whole population to pay for it through reduced government expenditure.
Couple this with banker bonuses and no criminal convictions for the crash and trust in the elite was lost. For in the meantime ordinary people lost jobs and houses and millions have seen no pay rise in a decade.
Cue the Alt-right come in and blame immigrants and Muslims for what was actually inflicted by neoliberal policies. And we end up where we are today.
Osborne (with Lib Dem support) nearly took us into a double dip recession as he raced to cut expenditure. But he didn't race to resolve RBS and sell it back to the market! Osborne and Cameron then took this toxic mix and picked the exact wrong time to call a referendum with a simple 50% majority and a question which did not cover the options.
In other comments some criticise Labour for not jumping on a single market Norway solution. Until we actually leave the EU that will be perceived as a remoaners charter and unify the right as a reaction. Corbyn's job is to hold up support at 40% whilst the Tories hopefully bleed support to UKIP and crash against Brexecution rocks.
What we can say right now is that a Customs Union and FTA on goods is about the only way to keep no border in Ireland - and Labour have held a pro Customs Union policy since early March. This also reflects their interest in jobs and the manufacturing sector. Only now is Parliament holding the detailed debate it should have had before the bloody vote!
Fortunately the hype over immigration has died down in the UK. However it is blatantly obvious that the various leave campaigns played this card in the same way that Trump went on about the Mexican wall and Muslim terror.
Obviously up to you if you want western democracies to be led by the likes of Le Pen, Farage and De Wilders but we can see that this is a distinctly minority view. It sees the light of day in the UK because for the last eight years the Tories are only in power by running a coalition which adopts and enables this approach.
Windrush was no accident!
Immigration is actually down since 2016 because it was always predicted to come down. Plus a drop in sterling combined with massive growth in Eastern Europe has led to many people returning.
It's high time we called out this toxic nationalist anti immigrant approach for what it is. A naked power grab seeking to convince ordinary workers and voters that the effects of austerity were actually something to do with Romanians and Turks!
There's no need to get depressed or desparate. But there's every reason to suppose that there is more of this nonsense to come. And that there will be yet another banking crisis triggered by some bubble or other. Banks might have deleveraged a tad but they still do not have full visibility and modelling of all of their risks. And they still pay big bonuses...
Now ask ourselves why Corbyn and McDonnell would want to sign up to something like the single market which help the City of London carry these massive risks?!
They are dedicated to rebalancing the sectoral and geographical mix of the UK economy. So if leaving the single market disrupts financial services they can see only an upside!
In summary politics has shifted and if people are looking for somebody or something to blame they might look at the banks and the regulatory framework in which they operate. And also take a look at the centrist politicians who brought us to this point and lost the trust of the people.
Personally, I'd start with the Lib Dems who enabled Cameron and Osborne for five years. After all, that was when austerity started and when Cameron and May started talking of reducing immigration to tens of thousands.
Back a couple of years May was asking the EU to be 'creative' in coming up with border solutions, suggesting none of her own. Two years later still no suggested solutions and the new term is that the EU should 'evolve' a border solution. The UK voted leave. The UK should suggest a solution. It isn't even the erroneous suggestion from @Dippenhall that the E,U is being childish, it is about the UK leaving and still expecting others to second guess a suitable solution. Now that's what's childish.
I think at this point the easiest, cheapest and most comprehensive way of resolving the border would be to annex the Republic of Ireland.
@seriously_red as usual ( on this topic) I agree with about 80% of your mega post. We will never agree on Corbyn, but never mind. Just on your final remark re the Lib Dems, they would of course argue that in fact their presence mitigated some of the worst austerity policies. And their choice was stark. As Clegg has often said, the objective of a party is to govern. Would you have had them stay in opposition on principle? They could not join with Labour, the public, worked up by the Mail and the Sun would never have worn such a coalition. Maybe the bigger problem is that neither our system nor our mindset supports coalition politics.
Back a couple of years May was asking the EU to be 'creative' in coming up with border solutions, suggesting none of her own. Two years later still no suggested solutions and the new term is that the EU should 'evolve' a border solution. The UK voted leave. The UK should suggest a solution. It isn't even the erroneous suggestion from @Dippenhall that the E,U is being childish, it is about the UK leaving and still expecting others to second guess a suitable solution. Now that's what's childish.
I think at this point the easiest, cheapest and most comprehensive way of resolving the border would be to annex the Republic of Ireland.
Well if they haven't got an air force capable of defending their own airspace... problem solved
I think the Libs could work with Labour after a new election, as can the SNP. I don't think it would have to be under a coalition, just an anti Tory alliance. What so many people miss about Labour is that they fought the clearest campaign any party has done for decades. The manifesto was costed and social democratic, not loony lefty. I posted a recent John Major speech on here and a lot of the things he suggested aligned with Labour policy.
Where there is the biggest difference is over Europe, but if we saw a massive pro Europe vote in an election i'm sure positions would change. Whilst I support Corbyn, my preference would be to have a minority government, where a combination of the nationalist parties, the Libs and Labour had a clear majority. I think it would help bring the country together! And importantly, the solutions for our future and the EU will not come from this current shambles of a government which has been nothing short of a disgrace over the past few years!
@seriously_red as usual ( on this topic) I agree with about 80% of your mega post. We will never agree on Corbyn, but never mind. Just on your final remark re the Lib Dems, they would of course argue that in fact their presence mitigated some of the worst austerity policies. And their choice was stark. As Clegg has often said, the objective of a party is to govern. Would you have had them stay in opposition on principle? They could not join with Labour, the public, worked up by the Mail and the Sun would never have worn such a coalition. Maybe the bigger problem is that neither our system nor our mindset supports coalition politics.
When surely coalitions work the best, with each side moderating the other
@seriously_red as usual ( on this topic) I agree with about 80% of your mega post. We will never agree on Corbyn, but never mind. Just on your final remark re the Lib Dems, they would of course argue that in fact their presence mitigated some of the worst austerity policies. And their choice was stark. As Clegg has often said, the objective of a party is to govern. Would you have had them stay in opposition on principle? They could not join with Labour, the public, worked up by the Mail and the Sun would never have worn such a coalition. Maybe the bigger problem is that neither our system nor our mindset supports coalition politics.
When surely coalitions work the best, with each side moderating the other
Yes, I agree, and for that I suppose you need for no party to be super dominant. Did you ever watch the Danish series, "Borgen"? Apart from being a great drama in its own right, it's a masterclass in demonstrating how European coalitions work (far from seamless, but they work).
@Red_in_SE8 , please can you have your argument without resorting to personal insults.
What? Are you serious? Chippy dishes out cheap personal insults on here on an almost daily basis. I only ever respond in kind when I am a target. And I will continue to do so.
Not daily at least every few days.... But never to people who know what they are talking about.....
Now of course Rolls is a full subsidiary of those bastard Germans BMW but in 1958 it was pride of The Empire.
I’m hoping that one of Rees Moggs friends can prise the mark away from Herman the German and make us all proud again. A Roller coming off the production line fully English would bring tears to my eyes. I’ve even dreamt it might be called The Rolls-Royce Blue Passport.
Now of course Rolls is a full subsidiary of those bastard Germans BMW but in 1958 it was pride of The Empire.
I’m hoping that one of Rees Moggs friends can prise the mark away from Herman the German and make us all proud again. A Roller coming off the production line fully English would bring tears to my eyes. I’ve even dreamt it might be called The Rolls-Royce Blue Passport.
No google or cut and paste can help you out this time could it.... What's moggy got to do with what car you drive... BASICS....
Now of course Rolls is a full subsidiary of those bastard Germans BMW but in 1958 it was pride of The Empire.
I’m hoping that one of Rees Moggs friends can prise the mark away from Herman the German and make us all proud again. A Roller coming off the production line fully English would bring tears to my eyes. I’ve even dreamt it might be called The Rolls-Royce Blue Passport.
No google or cut and paste can help you out this time could it.... What's moggy got to do with what car you drive... BASICS....
You are for once correct. I didn’t think of google to answer the question of what car I drive.
Comments
1.
LAW
defame (someone) by publishing a libel.
"the jury found that he was libelled by a newspaper"
synonyms: defame, malign, slander, give someone a bad name, blacken someone's name, sully someone's reputation, speak ill/evil of, write false reports about, traduce, smear, cast aspersions on, fling mud at, drag someone's name through the mud/mire, besmirch, tarnish, taint, do a hatchet job on, tell lies about, spread tales about, spread scandal about, stain, vilify, calumniate, denigrate, disparage, run down, derogate, stigmatize, discredit, slight; More
Does it for me.
Just for the record, I think no deal is the most likely option, neither side can, for differing reasons (Theresa May because she cannot command the support of the House, and the EU27, because the UK proposals would require the EU to restructure and undermine itself, with all the attendant treaty changes, to accommodate a third party), seem to compromise enough to agree even a Withdrawal deal.
There seems to be a desire on the UK part to renegotiate what has already been agreed (particularly the Irish border backstop), allied to a failure to recognise that, for the EU, regulatory compliance is at least as important as tariffs in the management of a Single Market (as a result of which, UK proposals are routinely dismissed as inadequate, because they are philosophically incomplete). There really isn't time for such manoeuvrings.
The prospects of political agreement on a future trading arrangement seem equally bleak.
Of course, all this is fine in a week when it appears that Northern Ireland is on the brink of recession, something that can only help make things, already wonderful here, so much better....
The UK voted leave.
The UK should suggest a solution.
It isn't even the erroneous suggestion from @Dippenhall that the E,U is being childish, it is about the UK leaving and still expecting others to second guess a suitable solution. Now that's what's childish.
Or the adults will come to their senses and rethink the whole thing, but that is more hope on my part.
One could observe that the UK is facing a demographic time bomb by 2025-2030 and that changes are required to either public provision (And associated taxation). Or one could argue that old people can no longer make claim on the state. For the numbers are far bigger than the immigration equation. Millions more with the potential to require social care.
Blaming immigrants and blaming Labour for what was a global financial crash is what got us into this mess. Throughout the US, UK and Germany the centre right have taken an out of control financial sector and successfully converted that into the perceived need for fiscal discipline and austerity. Whilst the politics changed, the banks were recapitalised and all European banks lending to Greece were bailed out in full! We didn't need austerity and never will - it's quite simply the wrong policy response.
Something I came across recently was that the three biggest banks in each of France, Germany and the Netherlands had balance sheets the same size as national GDP! And that one third of those balance sheets was tied up in impaired assets linked to the PIGS. So the ECB and national governments bailed out those banks as they were too big to fail. So the PIGS bonds changed hands at way more than market value transferring a private bank risk into a massive increase in debt:GDP.
And then they asked the whole population to pay for it through reduced government expenditure.
Couple this with banker bonuses and no criminal convictions for the crash and trust in the elite was lost. For in the meantime ordinary people lost jobs and houses and millions have seen no pay rise in a decade.
Cue the Alt-right come in and blame immigrants and Muslims for what was actually inflicted by neoliberal policies. And we end up where we are today.
Osborne (with Lib Dem support) nearly took us into a double dip recession as he raced to cut expenditure. But he didn't race to resolve RBS and sell it back to the market! Osborne and Cameron then took this toxic mix and picked the exact wrong time to call a referendum with a simple 50% majority and a question which did not cover the options.
In other comments some criticise Labour for not jumping on a single market Norway solution. Until we actually leave the EU that will be perceived as a remoaners charter and unify the right as a reaction. Corbyn's job is to hold up support at 40% whilst the Tories hopefully bleed support to UKIP and crash against Brexecution rocks.
What we can say right now is that a Customs Union and FTA on goods is about the only way to keep no border in Ireland - and Labour have held a pro Customs Union policy since early March. This also reflects their interest in jobs and the manufacturing sector. Only now is Parliament holding the detailed debate it should have had before the bloody vote!
Fortunately the hype over immigration has died down in the UK. However it is blatantly obvious that the various leave campaigns played this card in the same way that Trump went on about the Mexican wall and Muslim terror.
Obviously up to you if you want western democracies to be led by the likes of Le Pen, Farage and De Wilders but we can see that this is a distinctly minority view. It sees the light of day in the UK because for the last eight years the Tories are only in power by running a coalition which adopts and enables this approach.
Windrush was no accident!
Immigration is actually down since 2016 because it was always predicted to come down. Plus a drop in sterling combined with massive growth in Eastern Europe has led to many people returning.
It's high time we called out this toxic nationalist anti immigrant approach for what it is. A naked power grab seeking to convince ordinary workers and voters that the effects of austerity were actually something to do with Romanians and Turks!
There's no need to get depressed or desparate. But there's every reason to suppose that there is more of this nonsense to come. And that there will be yet another banking crisis triggered by some bubble or other. Banks might have deleveraged a tad but they still do not have full visibility and modelling of all of their risks. And they still pay big bonuses...
Now ask ourselves why Corbyn and McDonnell would want to sign up to something like the single market which help the City of London carry these massive risks?!
They are dedicated to rebalancing the sectoral and geographical mix of the UK economy. So if leaving the single market disrupts financial services they can see only an upside!
In summary politics has shifted and if people are looking for somebody or something to blame they might look at the banks and the regulatory framework in which they operate. And also take a look at the centrist politicians who brought us to this point and lost the trust of the people.
Personally, I'd start with the Lib Dems who enabled Cameron and Osborne for five years. After all, that was when austerity started and when Cameron and May started talking of reducing immigration to tens of thousands.
Where there is the biggest difference is over Europe, but if we saw a massive pro Europe vote in an election i'm sure positions would change. Whilst I support Corbyn, my preference would be to have a minority government, where a combination of the nationalist parties, the Libs and Labour had a clear majority. I think it would help bring the country together! And importantly, the solutions for our future and the EU will not come from this current shambles of a government which has been nothing short of a disgrace over the past few years!
I don't get how it's legal nor why it's apparently a non-issue.
The FT today:
If being a patriot is dragging your country through the mud then I'm glad I'm not one.