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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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Comments

  • stonemuse said:

    Fixed it for you :wink:
    Whilst it is perfectly reasonable to be unhappy with all major parties, only this government is responsible for the mess we are in. They have been doing the negotiating since article 50 was invoked. I have been critical of Europe, but the incompetence of this government prevents us really being too critical of them. Everytime May tries to get a position to negotiate around, she has to look around her left shoulder or her right one. How is it possible to sort out a deal when you don't even know what deal you want!

    I suppose there was an attempt to get there with Chequers, and incredibly late one, but we all know that is dead in the water. Again she can't even get her own people to support it. You may profoundly disagree with Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon and you may think they would not have done any better, but the Conservative party was responsible for this debacle from beginning to end. What we end up with if we don't step off the edge of the cliff will satisfy neither Brexiters nor remainers. The pain we all suffer won't be anybody's fault. Or at least that is what we will be told.
  • Impossible to prove but I very much doubt any of Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon would have been any improvement whatsoever.
  • edited October 2018
    stonemuse said:

    Impossible to prove but I very much doubt any of Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon would have been any improvement whatsoever.

    Very easy to prove in terms of Brexit actually as it was Cameron's big idea to unite his party. In fact there probably isn't anything easier to prove!

    Proving their level of competence to run the country - yes fair enough, but if we want to blame them for this mess too we may be being slightly unfair here.

    And to be fair - If the Conservative party was united enough, they would almost certainly have made a better shot of it! In fact we almost certainly wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. And it is difficult to see how the party is going to get through this without massive damage.
  • Interesting question to be fair. I think we’d still be in as big a mess re: Brexit with labour in charge, just would’ve played out a bit differently
  • Very easy to prove in terms of Brexit actually as it was Cameron's big idea to unite his party. In fact there probably isn't anything easier to prove!

    Proving their level of competence to run the country - yes fair enough, but if we want to blame them for this mess too we may be being slightly unfair here.

    And to be fair - If the Conservative party was united enough, they would almost certainly have made a better shot of it! In fact we almost certainly wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. And it is difficult to see how the party is going to get through this without massive damage.
    We will have to disagree. If in the same position, I believe they would have screwed up too.
  • se9addick said:

    - Sturgeon wouldn’t have taken us out of the EU at all, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense

    - Cable probably would have done the above or signed an EEA/Norway type deal, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense

    - Corbyn would have nationalised the entire country and turned us into a socialist state with no desire to trade with the capitalist EU, unbelievably that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
    But would they? If they were actually in power, would they really have gone against the referendum result? I am doubtful.
  • The problem is of course is that all the people campaigning for Brexit have f****d off! The best solution would have been to let them negotiate it as per their promises to us and then have a vote to decide whether they got the right deal - basically what they promised.
  • Sturgeon 11
    stonemuse said:

    But would they? If they were actually in power, would they really have gone against the referendum result? I am doubtful.
    Sturgeon 100% would.

    I know the point your making - “all our politicians are rubbish/as bad as each other”etc - and to some extent I agree, but I genuinely don’t think this could have gone any worse than it has under Theresa May.
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  • “The IRA have won” - wow!
  • Missed It said:

    I guess the old drunk was just flapping his gums again then. Who put him in charge of anything?!

    True, it's a process and there are many bumps in the road. Iceland were in that process and thought better of it. It's laudable that the EU tries to use membership as incentive for reformation of these former Eastern Bloc European countries, but I'm doubtful Serbia would ever reach the civic standards of a nation like Iceland. Maybe 5 years will be long enough for Serbia to sort out its human rights issues, or police up the huge number of unregistered weapons in circulation. I suspect not.
    I do understand where you are coming from, but I am probably unique on here in that I live in one of those countries that went down the path. I came here in '93, and the accession took place in 2004. Many of the biggest reforms took place before 2004- compliance. Like in any country you had different strands of opinion. Not everyone celebrated the fall of communism, and some smartarses who gained power, didn't want any pesky foreigners pointing out to the naive electorate what they were really about. But the clear majority wanted to be European again, and this desire helped push through the reforms that ensured the country was cleared to join. Joining the European club gives people a common sense of how they want to live, which helps for a more coherent politics.

    The Balkans are a right bloody handful, and I say that as someone with several cherished friends in/from Bulgaria, as well as a Serbian mate who lives here. Quite a few of my Bulgarian friends would have liked the EU to have been tougher on them before joining, and that for me is the key lesson in how to deal with the West Balkan applicants. But hold out the possibility, please. Millions of them see it as their future.

  • If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.

    I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.

    Certainly a unique take on matters.
  • Chizz said:

    Do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
    Forgive me, @Southbank if I have missed your reply to this. But, just to repeat the binary question, do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
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  • seth plum said:

    Do you really mean this post?
    The IRA have won?
    How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'?
    Anyway won what?
    The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British.
    Isn't that the real victory?
    You go on to say:
    'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.'
    You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake?
    Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'?
    You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
    I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.

    I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.

    may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
  • Brexit interview with Steve Parish is interesting. In short he feels Brexit is an opportunity for PL clubs to roam around the world hoovering up the best young talent on the cheap.

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/steve-parish-interview-crystal-palace-brexit/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
  • edited October 2018

    I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.

    I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.

    may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
    The last time I looked, the Good Friday Agreement was a peace agreement and had nothing to do with Brexit. The reasons there was a conflict are still bubbling under the surface and finding a way to stop the bombings and deaths has to be a good thing rather than a bad. I would go as far to suggest the fact that we were all in the EU might have helped in the negotiations which is a big part of the issue Brexit faces.

    As somebody like yourself who lived through the bombings in the 70s - I even recall hearing one go off, I think it was a fantastic development to an issue that there looked no solution to. Again, having lived through it, I think not going back thre or risking going back there is more important than anything.

    Building walls and barriers is not the solution and never will be. The IRA haven't won - nobody has won. Their primary goal hasn't been achieved. We have found a way to have a bit more tolerance of each other and save innocent lives. The problem is a problem because of the problems in Ireland, but these pre-date the EU and were easily predictable. That we had politicians insulting our intelligence and telling us it wouldn't be is disgusting and disgraceful.

    To claim the loyalists don't have a cause is ridiculous. They have as much a cause as republicans. Their causes are the opposite of each other but causes all the same. In fact it is the DUP that have scuppered one of the most workable solutions, putting their cause ahead of pragmatism.

    The EU have been clear that the other solution - a customs union has to be permanent. I'm sure there may be some wriggle room if the end date was put far enough in the future but I suspect that won't wash with too dissenters in May's party.
  • The last time I looked, the Good Friday Agreement was a peace agreement and had nothing to do with Brexit. The reasons there was a conflict are still bubbling under the surface and finding a way to stop the bombings and deaths has to be a good thing rather than a bad. I would go as far to suggest the fact that we were all in the EU might have helped in the negotiations

    As somebody like yourself who lived through the bombings in the 70s - I even recall hearing one go off, I think it was a fantastic development to an issue that there looked no solution to. Again, having lived through it, I think not going back thre or risking going back there is more important than anything.

    Building walls and barriers is not the solution and never will be. The IRA haven't won - nobody has won. We have found a way to have a bit more tolerance of each other and save innocent lives. The problem is a problem because of the problems in Ireland, but these pre-date the EU and was easily predictable. That we had politicians insulting our intelligence and telling us it wouldn't be is disgusting and disgraceful.

    To claim the loyalists don't have a cause is ridiculous. They have as much a cause as republicans. Their causes are the opposite of each other but causes all the same. In fact it is the DUP that have scuppered one of the most workable solutions, putting their cause ahead of pragmatism.
    Yes, I totally agree with you. I get the point about the Loyalists in NI - its just I've not experienced it living in the UK all my life. I would add that I doubt the Loyalists "cause" would be as strong if it wasn't for the IRA....but we'll park that one there.

    The main thing, and you alluded to it yourself, is that the UK's involvement in the EU postdates the troubles (I'll ignore the 1975 Referendum as that was us joining the "Common Market" and it has gone way beyond that now) and as such it is nigh on impossible to leave the EU now because the UK lives cheek by jowl to a member state, and one that neither side wants to make any trouble distancing themselves from.

    I just wonder how the Americans would deal with a situation where Texas wanted to leave "The Union".
  • edited October 2018

    Yes, I totally agree with you. I get the point about the Loyalists in NI - its just I've not experienced it living in the UK all my life. I would add that I doubt the Loyalists "cause" would be as strong if it wasn't for the IRA....but we'll park that one there.

    The main thing, and you alluded to it yourself, is that the UK's involvement in the EU postdates the troubles (I'll ignore the 1975 Referendum as that was us joining the "Common Market" and it has gone way beyond that now) and as such it is nigh on impossible to leave the EU now because the UK lives cheek by jowl to a member state, and one that neither side wants to make any trouble distancing themselves from.

    I just wonder how the Americans would deal with a situation where Texas wanted to leave "The Union".
    Yes we agree - the loyalists have Northern Ireland as part of the UK and not Ireland - the Republicans don't have the united Ireland they have been fighting for. I don't think we can claim they have won.
  • I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.

    I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.

    may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
    Oh that it were that simple. So all the other problems and issues that we have been and still are telling you about, would simply go away?

    Why can you not just hold your hands up and say "I got it wrong", Golfie? Why is that so hard?

    You chose to ignore all the information and warnings us remainers gave you, and decided to believe the side of a bus, and a bunch of liars with their own political ambitions and self interest at heart. You were one of a few million, you do not bare this burden alone, but your continual attempts at self justification and search for "reasons" why you were duped does you no favours, sir.
  • I heard once that getting others or even yourself to change your opinion can take 10 years. That is why elections are won and lost on the people who don't have a strong opinion either way.
  • For those that accuse the BBC of pro-remain bias, an interesting stat:

    https://europaunited.eu/2018/10/12/ratings-over-reality-who-questions-question-time/
This discussion has been closed.

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