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Barnsley threatening EFL ahead of Disciplinary action for Wednesday, Derby & Birmingham
Comments
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It's all been covered by various posters throughout the thread already.MuttleyCAFC said:If what I am saying is proven correct, I expect a promote (which is more than Wednesday will say next season). The thing is, there has to be an explanation.
What you need to do is copy and paste to a bite sized thread.0 -
Derby got the money from the sale of their ground.Sheffield Wednesday have yet to receive a penny, which is a bit like our ‘take over’ by ESI2, it never happened.0
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Because they either don't care what others think or, more likely imho, they know there is nothing positive to add to what they've already said.Chunes said:Why would they not at least make a statement to explain the delay?
It all points to ESI not being able to pass the tests. If they could and the fault lay with the EFL then they could say that and few people would think "surely, the EFL can't be that useless".
Mahail, for all his faults, understood.
It seems Farnell is steeped in the corporate world where everything is kept a secret unless you're absolutely forced to reveal it.
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Like honour amongst thieves?Henry Irving said:
It seems Farnell is steeped in the corporate world where everything is kept a secret unless you're absolutely forced to reveal it.Chunes said:Why would they not at least make a statement to explain the delay?0 -
Discussing the Wednesday points deduction rather than our ownershipHenry Irving said:
Because they either don't care what others think or, more likely imho, they know there is nothing positive to add to what they've already said.Chunes said:Why would they not at least make a statement to explain the delay?
It all points to ESI not being able to pass the tests. If they could and the fault lay with the EFL then they could say that and few people would think "surely, the EFL can't be that useless".
Mahail, for all his faults, understood.
It seems Farnell is steeped in the corporate world where everything is kept a secret unless you're absolutely forced to reveal it.2 -
Who is trying to compete fairly? I would suggest it's probably only us and BarnsleyMuttleyCAFC said:It is the plain sight cheating that shows the extent of the problem. Classing Rooney as a coach is a great example of how they are getting round player salary budget rules. And add to that selling the ground to themselves!!Wednesday have invented sponsors to pull the wool over the authority's eyes! They sold the ground to themselves too, but moved the tax year falsely to not fall foul of the rules. Apart from being ridiculous,this is dishonest and unfair on those clubs trying to compete fairly.0 -
what is the consensus that a points deduction will happen? It would be good if it happens Monday so that I can actually enjoy one of our games3
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That's a nice evaluation of the situation @MuttleyCAFC.
Hopefully the delay in any announcement from Head Office is because they've already decided to implement a 21-point penalty for the appalling manner in which the Massives have operated. Obviously if that was implemented in full now it would send them to the foot of the table and face life in Div Three next season but then they'd be able to start afresh and have a half-decent stab at coming straight back up.
If the judgement is that the 21-point penalty is going to be the total punishment and it'll be spread over two seasons i.e. enough points to send them down this year with the remainder as next year's handicap (which will hopefully ensure they suffer another season in the third tier), it's not so easy to declare it publically until the first stage of the sentence can be quantified
There needs to be a sufficient deterrent to stop clubs attempting to rort the rules in this way; this would set down a decent precedent.6 -
Chris_from_Sidcup said:
100% if the outcome is known by the suits upstairs, then Monk Karl Robinson and his players will also know.MattF said:
If that's true, wonder if the players are aware of the outcome or if it's just the people upstairs. Little bit of me feels a bit sorry for the fans in total limbo over this, especially as those not particularly following the story (if that's even possible) could be in for a very nasty shock.Chris_from_Sidcup said:Latest rumour on Owlstalk is that a poster there reckons he's heard from ' 2 very trustworthy sources' that Wednesday were found guilty at the hearing and have known the outcome for over a week.
Again, could just be another made up rumour, but it does seem weird that we know their case has finished but we haven't heard the outcome.
Speculation is that both sides agreed not to announce the outcome until an appeal had been heard.
Robbo seems to have a private line to HQ for this sort of Secret Squirrel stuff.1 - Sponsored links:
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Owls talk are thinking that they are such a big club that the EFL will not want to lose them with Leeds and W.Brom going up. I keep forgetting that they are such a massive club.
I am hoping that the EFL think that the first division needs them more!5 -
I am hoping that the EFL remember what a massive bunch of c***s their fans are, pick a two digit number and treble it. Call it a "massive c*** tax"Redrobo said:Owls talk are thinking that they are such a big club that the EFL will not want to lose them with Leeds and W.Brom going up. I keep forgetting that they are such a massive club.
I am hoping that the EFL think that the first division needs them more!12 -
Ipswich, Sunderland, Pompey, and then Chef Wendy. Wow, that's a tough gig next season.Redrobo said:Owls talk are thinking that they are such a big club that the EFL will not want to lose them with Leeds and W.Brom going up. I keep forgetting that they are such a massive club.
I am hoping that the EFL think that the first division needs them more!
Tear up in the Third Tier.2 -
They won't be losing them, they'll be raising the profile of League One.Redrobo said:Owls talk are thinking that they are such a big club that the EFL will not want to lose them with Leeds and W.Brom going up. I keep forgetting that they are such a massive club.
I am hoping that the EFL think that the first division needs them more!
They would only lose them if they added points to go to the Prem.1 -
I thought it was common knowledge that the hearing ended 2 weeks ago. Their lawyer is now acting for Derby......and that case started last week.MuttleyCAFC said:Ok, time for Sherlock Muttley. let's look at what we know and then some speculation as the delay in an announcement of the outcome has to have an explanation. The Stadium was sold in a different accounting year to where it was shown in its accounts. If this was applied to the correct year, Wednesday would have fallen foul of the FFP (now known as Profit and Sustainability rules). Unlike Derby, it is not the sale that is in question, but this accounting manipulation.
The stadium sale was not correctly registered with the Land Registry until over a year after the sale date Wednesday provided. Wednesday have maintained the EFL gave permission for this when they did it! The added issue that looks pretty damning is that the company that purchased the stadium at the time Wednesday reported, did not exist in that crucial period.
Now the political bit. Up to 2016, selling your ground to avoid falling foul of FFP was not possible. For obvious reasons. It is a clear cheat. At that point, the league amended its rules to align with the Premier league. This created a loophole that allowed teams to do this but it was never the intention. So there was a loophole which the EFL were unhappy about teams exploiting. It subjected them to risk of being sued as this was a major error on their part. So the EFL would prefer that Wednesday get punished as it seeks to stop clubs doing this in future.
But Wednesday cocked things up big time. Possibly because it had to do something to avoid the FFP breach that like Birmingham may have caught them out. They could have like Birmingham come clean about their error. Birmingham received a 3 point bonus for this that meant they were only docked 9 points instead of 12 last season. Within the Profit and sustainability rules the punishment ranges from 9 points (for co-operating teams, 12 points as standard and 21 points in aggravated circumstances). The deception and obstruction Wednesday have allegedly committed makes a larger than 12 points reduction more than feasible.
We also know the hearing, held by an independent panel commenced weeks ago. It is inconceivable that it has not been concluded. The facts stated above are reasonably clear cut. So why no announcement? I think if Wednesday were found not guilty, there is no way that wouldn't have been announced. Even if the EFL appealed, Wednesday would have leaked it. So it has to be the most likely conclusion that Wednesday have been found guilty.
So why delay the announcement? Some may argue the EFL are waiting to see how many points Wednesday get so they can be given a token deduction. I don't think this is likely as it wouldn't be a punishment at all and the independent panel decide what it should be within the rules and guidelines. Most of it's members are absolutely livid at this cheating as it potentially affects them. I suspect a more likely reason for the delay is that the punishment is more than 12 points due to Wednesday's behaviour and obstructions.
A 21 point reduction could explain the delay. 21 points is a big deterrent but also a deduction of this scale may not be any different in realty to 12 points, if 12 points relegates Wednesday. A way of imposing the full force of the deduction would be to apply the points needed to relegate and what is left gets carried over until next season. This would potentially explain the delay in the announcement in terms of specific points but the general outcome could still be announced. This is just a theory, but Wednesday would still have something to play for as every point gained comes off the final total.
Moving to Derby. What Derby have done, the League is very unhappy about as the loophole used greatly embarrasses them, but due to the EFL's uselessness, it is legal. What the league are investigating is whether the valuation was reasonable as if this was not the case, the sale can be clearly shown to be a sham. But ultimately, Derby did lump the sale in the appropriate year. The EFL are livid at both clubs but Wednesday are the easier target as whilst they used the loophole, they did it in the wrong year which makes it easier for the EFL to throw the book at them.
Also, IF the EFL are waiting for the season to end so they know exactly how many points to deduct why not do as they have done with Wigan and announce a set of priviso's . IE, End the season on 50 points then there is a deduction of 9 now (which would relegate them) and then another 12 next season. If they get to 55, then deduct 12 now (which would relegate them) and another 9 next season.
Not that hard to do.1 -
We know the case finished at least 10 days ago, so for me it would seem that Wednesday lost the case and have appealed, and the EFL have perhaps agreed not to release the verdict until the appeal is heard.
If it was the other way round and they'd won the case, i'm pretty certain Wednesday would've sung it from the rooftops and phoned Jim White within seconds.
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golfaddick said:
I thought it was common knowledge that the hearing ended 2 weeks ago. Their lawyer is now acting for Derby......and that case started last week.MuttleyCAFC said:Ok, time for Sherlock Muttley. let's look at what we know and then some speculation as the delay in an announcement of the outcome has to have an explanation. The Stadium was sold in a different accounting year to where it was shown in its accounts. If this was applied to the correct year, Wednesday would have fallen foul of the FFP (now known as Profit and Sustainability rules). Unlike Derby, it is not the sale that is in question, but this accounting manipulation.
The stadium sale was not correctly registered with the Land Registry until over a year after the sale date Wednesday provided. Wednesday have maintained the EFL gave permission for this when they did it! The added issue that looks pretty damning is that the company that purchased the stadium at the time Wednesday reported, did not exist in that crucial period.
Now the political bit. Up to 2016, selling your ground to avoid falling foul of FFP was not possible. For obvious reasons. It is a clear cheat. At that point, the league amended its rules to align with the Premier league. This created a loophole that allowed teams to do this but it was never the intention. So there was a loophole which the EFL were unhappy about teams exploiting. It subjected them to risk of being sued as this was a major error on their part. So the EFL would prefer that Wednesday get punished as it seeks to stop clubs doing this in future.
But Wednesday cocked things up big time. Possibly because it had to do something to avoid the FFP breach that like Birmingham may have caught them out. They could have like Birmingham come clean about their error. Birmingham received a 3 point bonus for this that meant they were only docked 9 points instead of 12 last season. Within the Profit and sustainability rules the punishment ranges from 9 points (for co-operating teams, 12 points as standard and 21 points in aggravated circumstances). The deception and obstruction Wednesday have allegedly committed makes a larger than 12 points reduction more than feasible.
We also know the hearing, held by an independent panel commenced weeks ago. It is inconceivable that it has not been concluded. The facts stated above are reasonably clear cut. So why no announcement? I think if Wednesday were found not guilty, there is no way that wouldn't have been announced. Even if the EFL appealed, Wednesday would have leaked it. So it has to be the most likely conclusion that Wednesday have been found guilty.
So why delay the announcement? Some may argue the EFL are waiting to see how many points Wednesday get so they can be given a token deduction. I don't think this is likely as it wouldn't be a punishment at all and the independent panel decide what it should be within the rules and guidelines. Most of it's members are absolutely livid at this cheating as it potentially affects them. I suspect a more likely reason for the delay is that the punishment is more than 12 points due to Wednesday's behaviour and obstructions.
A 21 point reduction could explain the delay. 21 points is a big deterrent but also a deduction of this scale may not be any different in realty to 12 points, if 12 points relegates Wednesday. A way of imposing the full force of the deduction would be to apply the points needed to relegate and what is left gets carried over until next season. This would potentially explain the delay in the announcement in terms of specific points but the general outcome could still be announced. This is just a theory, but Wednesday would still have something to play for as every point gained comes off the final total.
Moving to Derby. What Derby have done, the League is very unhappy about as the loophole used greatly embarrasses them, but due to the EFL's uselessness, it is legal. What the league are investigating is whether the valuation was reasonable as if this was not the case, the sale can be clearly shown to be a sham. But ultimately, Derby did lump the sale in the appropriate year. The EFL are livid at both clubs but Wednesday are the easier target as whilst they used the loophole, they did it in the wrong year which makes it easier for the EFL to throw the book at them.
Also, IF the EFL are waiting for the season to end so they know exactly how many points to deduct why not do as they have done with Wigan and announce a set of priviso's . IE, End the season on 50 points then there is a deduction of 9 now (which would relegate them) and then another 12 next season. If they get to 55, then deduct 12 now (which would relegate them) and another 9 next season.
Not that hard to do.
It is not clear -12 points would relegate them yet. It would mean they can't catch us or Luton, but they could still finish above Wigan. I agree the EFL could announce a set of provisos, but they haven't. Wigan's deduction came with a proviso to be fair but their punishment can only fall in one season as per the set out protocol for admin. As you rightly observe, the hearing must have ended and if Wednesday were exonerated, it seems ridiculous that would not have been announced by them if not the EFL. So if they have been found guilty, and the hearing has ended, what is the next step?1 -
Could the delay be because the EFL have got a taxi rank full of clubs they need to deduct points from Wednesday, Wigan, Derby,...CHARLTON? and they need to see how the season finishes to work out how best to punish everyone. Only three baddies can be relegated.0
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There could be all sorts of reasons. They may want to punish Wednesday and Derby together. Or get Derby cleared and out of the way which they would have to do before Wednesday. All we can do is speculate, but my point is it seems unlikely Wednesday have not been found guilty so our speculation can reasonably start from there. If it was us, we would be annoyed if we were left to sweat for weeks when there was nothing to sweat about. For that reason, I can't see how Wednesday wouldn't have announced a not guilty verdict.0
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Jim whites do good, he would have known the result before it was announcedChris_from_Sidcup said:We know the case finished at least 10 days ago, so for me it would seem that Wednesday lost the case and have appealed, and the EFL have perhaps agreed not to release the verdict until the appeal is heard.
If it was the other way round and they'd won the case, i'm pretty certain Wednesday would've sung it from the rooftops and phoned Jim White within seconds.0 - Sponsored links:
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A punishment should be a punishment.......not waiting for the season to end to see where the other culprits end up first.KiwiValley said:Could the delay be because the EFL have got a taxi rank full of clubs they need to deduct points from Wednesday, Wigan, Derby,...CHARLTON? and they need to see how the season finishes to work out how best to punish everyone. Only three baddies can be relegated.
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Why would Derby be using Wednesdays’ lawyer if he’d just lost the case??0
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It's not the EFL that decide.KiwiValley said:Could the delay be because the EFL have got a taxi rank full of clubs they need to deduct points from Wednesday, Wigan, Derby,...CHARLTON? and they need to see how the season finishes to work out how best to punish everyone. Only three baddies can be relegated.
The hearing was with an independent commission.
Then once the commission decides on the punishment, the losing side have 14 days to appeal against the verdict. And given we know the hearing finished over a week ago, we should be hearing a decision sometime soon.
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The 1/100 being quoted is with smarkets which is a Mickey mouse exchange with no liquidity. For those who don't fully understand betting exchanges this means basically punters betting against each other. In this case no body wants to lay Wednesday because of the uncertainty, the real bookies haven't laid a bet on wednesday for months due to this.carly burn said:
So in summary the 1/100 there isn't actually a true reflection of chance of the deduction being made more a reflection of the fact that nobody still has a scooby what is going on.
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It's all speculation but Detective Muttleys thoughts are bang on.. So much so that I'm now relying on them to come true!! 🤣
You see I have grave doubts about a point being enough on Wednesday let alone a win especially if we have no Matthews and Pearce... Ayling, Alioski and Hernandez will tear us apart.. a bit like that opening first 20 minutes at home where we should have been 3 nil down.
I've watched Leeds a few times this season with my old boss who is a massive Leeds fan and they can be utterly relentless going forward...to the optimists yes.... I will have some very large humble pie ready but we are not going to get anything from Leeds in my personal opinion.
We need a Sheffield points deduction to stand a chance as I fear Luton will do enough, Wigan will probably edge it and don't be surprised if Barnsley turn up too just to feck it all up.
Yes the fight and passion we gave yesterday was brilliant.. I couldn't have asked more... BUT where was it against Reading, Millwall, Hudders away and my personal favourite Derby away which will stick in the mind for a long while....toothless.
To suddenly turn up now is too little too late.
A Miracle please or League one beckons...
Okay... Now bring on the optimists.🤣
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We are staying up, we are staying up.peterreeves said:It's all speculation but Detective Muttleys thoughts are bang on.. So much so that I'm now relying on them to come true!! 🤣
You see I have grave doubts about a point being enough on Wednesday let alone a win especially if we have no Matthews and Pearce... Ayling, Alioski and Hernandez will tear us apart.. a bit like that opening first 20 minutes at home where we should have been 3 nil down.
I've watched Leeds a few times this season with my old boss who is a massive Leeds fan and they can be utterly relentless going forward...to the optimists yes.... I will have some very large humble pie ready but we are not going to get anything from Leeds in my personal opinion.
We need a Sheffield points deduction to stand a chance as I fear Luton will do enough, Wigan will probably edge it and don't be surprised if Barnsley turn up too just to feck it all up.
Yes the fight and passion we gave yesterday was brilliant.. I couldn't have asked more... BUT where was it against Reading, Millwall, Hudders away and my personal favourite Derby away which will stick in the mind for a long while....toothless.
To suddenly turn up now is too little too late.
A Miracle please or League one beckons...
Okay... Now bring on the optimists.🤣
Optimistic enough?
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Ok, here's a contrarian view.......peterreeves said:It's all speculation but Detective Muttleys thoughts are bang on.. So much so that I'm now relying on them to come true!! 🤣
You see I have grave doubts about a point being enough on Wednesday let alone a win especially if we have no Matthews and Pearce... Ayling, Alioski and Hernandez will tear us apart.. a bit like that opening first 20 minutes at home where we should have been 3 nil down.
I've watched Leeds a few times this season with my old boss who is a massive Leeds fan and they can be utterly relentless going forward...to the optimists yes.... I will have some very large humble pie ready but we are not going to get anything from Leeds in my personal opinion.
We need a Sheffield points deduction to stand a chance as I fear Luton will do enough, Wigan will probably edge it and don't be surprised if Barnsley turn up too just to feck it all up.
Yes the fight and passion we gave yesterday was brilliant.. I couldn't have asked more... BUT where was it against Reading, Millwall, Hudders away and my personal favourite Derby away which will stick in the mind for a long while....toothless.
To suddenly turn up now is too little too late.
A Miracle please or League one beckons...
Okay... Now bring on the optimists.🤣
Wigan HAVE to win. Anything else & they are down
Luton HAVE to get something out of their game, and even then that might not be enough.
We dont.
Is that optimistic enough for you ?7 -
Are they going to be utterly relentless is a game that means nothing to them though?peterreeves said:It's all speculation but Detective Muttleys thoughts are bang on.. So much so that I'm now relying on them to come true!! 🤣
You see I have grave doubts about a point being enough on Wednesday let alone a win especially if we have no Matthews and Pearce... Ayling, Alioski and Hernandez will tear us apart.. a bit like that opening first 20 minutes at home where we should have been 3 nil down.
I've watched Leeds a few times this season with my old boss who is a massive Leeds fan and they can be utterly relentless going forward...to the optimists yes.... I will have some very large humble pie ready but we are not going to get anything from Leeds in my personal opinion.
We need a Sheffield points deduction to stand a chance as I fear Luton will do enough, Wigan will probably edge it and don't be surprised if Barnsley turn up too just to feck it all up.
Yes the fight and passion we gave yesterday was brilliant.. I couldn't have asked more... BUT where was it against Reading, Millwall, Hudders away and my personal favourite Derby away which will stick in the mind for a long while....toothless.
To suddenly turn up now is too little too late.
A Miracle please or League one beckons...
Okay... Now bring on the optimists.🤣3 -
Leeds win comfortably,
I know I’ll be watching the Wigan game intently
have Sky named the live fixtures yet0 -
Gee whizz.... So many optimists!
And yes Leeds will be relentless... Its been 16 years for them.... They will want to prove they're the Champions and not look as if they've won the league on the basis of other teams doing them favours in the last few days.
I might be wrong and hope I am but this game on Wednesday is one too many in our championship journey.
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