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Harsh on Williams today
Comments
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As a manager. your challenge is to get the best out of players. Some do need a kick up the backside but you do have to be careful as players notice when they are treated differently and think you are showing favouritism.
I think Bowyer could have made an excuse for bringing Williams off, like he saw a gap he had to fill elsewhere. Bullshit, but not something that you can argue with. Then had a frank conversation in his office privately when tempers are even a few days later.
There is a lesson here for him that he can chose to learn or not and that is to try to control his anger. Decisions made in anger are far more likely to be errors. Anyway, let's hope for a reaction tomorrow. That goes for many things in life, not just football.0 -
Let’s get this clear. Bows is in charge. FIFO.
Fit In or F Off.
I hope he doesn’t change.9 -
Williams jumps out of another challenge yet Bowyer leaves him on the pitch
If as a result the opposition score, who gets the blame?
- Williams because he shouldnt have jumped out the way
- Bowyer because he's the Manager and didnt recognise Williams' was a liability defensively
- Both of them because neither have made the right decision in our eyes?0 -
Agree with your point. I would bet that LB does see JW bottling it in training (his injury record must be in his head) but LB isn't cutting him any slack in a match situation, LB's job is to get results.Dave Rudd said:Recognising all the uproar regarding the way Bowyer dealt with Williams, I have a different question:
Why is Bowyer finding out about 'Waterford' Williams' tackling ability (or lack of tackling ability) in a match situation?
Does Williams regularly take out his team-mates in training? I don't think so. Is 'Crystal' Johnny the man to fear in a head-to-head with Pearce? Probably not.
So, Williams has simply done what we would expect Williams to do ... avoid confrontation, avoid injury. It's difficult to see why Bowyer would have expected anything else.
Personally, I'd be much more concerned about the dreadful tackle that Morgan produced. That was horrible ... but it has hardly received a mention.
No one knows what goes on behind the scenes but comments on here assume LB acted to a one off isolated situation - I doubt it.
LB was asked a question and he answered honestly. JW wasn't showing any signs of injury so what other reason could LB have given that would not have been seen as a lie and not fooled anyone. The experts in football and man management on this site would have had a field day.
Not sure how this one incident justifies denying respect for a guy who could have, and should have, walked long ago but chose to stick it out and commit to the club and the fans in spite of everything.2 -
With the exception of Taylor they would all fit into the "improved with games" category would they not?PragueAddick said:
Taylor (hugely so). Cullen. Philips. Dijksteel. You could make a case for Leko, before he got injured. This season, Amos. Inniss (although the inevitable injury came so soon, that might be premature)Cafc43v3r said:FishCostaFortune said:
Can't disagree with much of what Bowyer says here, and we have seen he improves players - especially midfielders.ForeverAddickted said:
Does he? I am not being argumentative but who has he improved?
Most players will improve between 18-23ish by playing games, preferably in their correct positions. Hence all clubs loan young players out.
If you put Gallagher, Bielik, Grant, Aribo and Sarr (a few years older but didn't play for nearly 3 years) in that category who else has significantly improved? Then look at those who regressed.
You could make the argument that Bowyer got the best out of Taylor. Who's best form came when playing with a fit and inform Williams and Gallagher.
Is Amos a better goal keeper than the day Bowyer became manager?
I think Cullen was too good for league 1 when we got him and no big championship club came in for him when he left so I would say that's open for debate.
Like I said I am not being argumentative I just think it's a big statement to make and accept as fact, when the facts are clouded at best.1 -
Definitely Williams. Because for me the issue wasn't what Williams did, it was Bowyer's reaction in taking him off. If you start making subs for that reason then you better start campaigning to have a 23 man squad with all players on the bench like the World Cup and being allowed 7/8.ForeverAddickted said:Williams jumps out of another challenge yet Bowyer leaves him on the pitch
If as a result the opposition score, who gets the blame?
- Williams because he shouldnt have jumped out the way
- Bowyer because he's the Manager and didnt recognise Williams' was a liability defensively
- Both of them because neither have made the right decision in our eyes?0 -
Williams (judging by this thread), Lapslie, Fosu, Reeves, JFC for a start.LonelyNorthernAddick said:
For some offers of people he's improved - Morgan, Pratley, Alfie, KAG and Taylor both went from League 2 to Championship level strikers.Cafc43v3r said:FishCostaFortune said:
Can't disagree with much of what Bowyer says here, and we have seen he improves players - especially midfielders.ForeverAddickted said:
Does he? I am not being argumentative but who has he improved?
Most players will improve between 18-23ish by playing games, preferably in their correct positions. Hence all clubs loan young players out.
If you put Gallagher, Bielik, Grant, Aribo and Sarr (a few years older but didn't play for nearly 3 years) in that category who else has significantly improved? Then look at those who regressed.
But you don't have to take my word for it anyway, I think the fact that Chelsea have trusted us with two of their most promising young players in the last 2 seasons, and Man Utd have sent one of their young midfielders our way says a fair bit as well.
I'd be really interested to hear whose regressed?
Chelsea have got 31 players out on loan ranging from Dartford to Napoli.1 -
I understand your thinking - and many young players will naturally improve with games as you say.Cafc43v3r said:
With the exception of Taylor they would all fit into the "improved with games" category would they not?PragueAddick said:
Taylor (hugely so). Cullen. Philips. Dijksteel. You could make a case for Leko, before he got injured. This season, Amos. Inniss (although the inevitable injury came so soon, that might be premature)Cafc43v3r said:FishCostaFortune said:
Can't disagree with much of what Bowyer says here, and we have seen he improves players - especially midfielders.ForeverAddickted said:
Does he? I am not being argumentative but who has he improved?
Most players will improve between 18-23ish by playing games, preferably in their correct positions. Hence all clubs loan young players out.
If you put Gallagher, Bielik, Grant, Aribo and Sarr (a few years older but didn't play for nearly 3 years) in that category who else has significantly improved? Then look at those who regressed.
You could make the argument that Bowyer got the best out of Taylor. Who's best form came when playing with a fit and inform Williams and Gallagher.
Is Amos a better goal keeper than the day Bowyer became manager?
I think Cullen was too good for league 1 when we got him and no big championship club came in for him when he left so I would say that's open for debate.
Like I said I am not be argumentative I just think it's a big statement to make and accept as fact, when the facts are clouded at best.
But many young players also don't improve, or don't improve past what there natural curve would be if they just stayed at their parent club and played under 23 games.
There's much more to coaching then just a player playing the game and getting better. If that was the case we would all be internationals by now.
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Two isn't it? Both avoidable in my book.1
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@Cafc43v3r
What confuses me about your points is that you're saying that players "improved with games" rather than through Bowyer's coaching. But how else are we supposed to judge them than when they play games, and how else do they improve? Does the coaching from Bowyer and team not influence the performance in games? Performances on the pitch aren't separate to the coaching they receive week in week out, it's all intrinsically linked. If players improve whilst playing for us surely some credit has got to go to LB and the other staff.
My confidence comes mainly from interviews with players and such, than my own analysis of their performances, I can't give a specific example but players have gone on record with SLP etc a number of times (I'm sure Taylor did at least once) citing Bowyer as helping them improve.5 -
I think where Bowyer really improves players is teaching them that they can't just play one side of the game. He demands that attacking players be able to do their bit defensively and defensive-minded player can contribute to attacking phases. Lots of players in our team are more well-rounded than they were when they joined. I think the biggest example is Pratley. There's no doubt that Pratley, a player who was visibly on the decline, has been improved by Bowyer. and that didn't just come from playing games because he'd already played hundreds. He went from a player who didn't get into our L1 eleven to probably our most consistent player in the Championship. Matthews was unwanted at Sunderland and I think he was one of the better RBs in the Championship.Cafc43v3r said:
With the exception of Taylor they would all fit into the "improved with games" category would they not?PragueAddick said:
Taylor (hugely so). Cullen. Philips. Dijksteel. You could make a case for Leko, before he got injured. This season, Amos. Inniss (although the inevitable injury came so soon, that might be premature)Cafc43v3r said:FishCostaFortune said:
Can't disagree with much of what Bowyer says here, and we have seen he improves players - especially midfielders.ForeverAddickted said:
Does he? I am not being argumentative but who has he improved?
Most players will improve between 18-23ish by playing games, preferably in their correct positions. Hence all clubs loan young players out.
If you put Gallagher, Bielik, Grant, Aribo and Sarr (a few years older but didn't play for nearly 3 years) in that category who else has significantly improved? Then look at those who regressed.
You could make the argument that Bowyer got the best out of Taylor. Who's best form came when playing with a fit and inform Williams and Gallagher.
Is Amos a better goal keeper than the day Bowyer became manager?
I think Cullen was too good for league 1 when we got him and no big championship club came in for him when he left so I would say that's open for debate.
Like I said I am not being argumentative I just think it's a big statement to make and accept as fact, when the facts are clouded at best.
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LonelyNorthernAddick said:@Cafc43v3r
What confuses me about your points is that you're saying that players "improved with games" rather than through Bowyer's coaching. But how else are we supposed to judge them than when they play games, and how else do they improve? Does the coaching from Bowyer and team not influence the performance in games? Performances on the pitch aren't separate to the coaching they receive week in week out, it's all intrinsically linked. If players improve whilst playing for us surely some credit has got to go to LB and the other staff.
My confidence comes mainly from interviews with players and such, than my own analysis of their performances, I can't give a specific example but players have gone on record with SLP etc a number of times (I'm sure Taylor did at least once) citing Bowyer as helping them improve.It's a fair point. The original point was I said "we all know Bowyer improves players - espically midfielders" wasn't a nailed on fact.
Of course some players have improved while Lee Bowyer has been manager, it would be churlish to suggest other wise.
Neither Phillips or Grant had had a proper run in the side, in the correct position for the later, before Bowyer was manager. Were their up turns in fortune down to playing, coaching, physical and mental maturity or a combination of all 3?
Probably the last of those options. Or was it luck? Grant wouldn't have played at Sunderland if Igor hadn't got injured and Phillips wouldn't have played if Villa hadn't recalled the keeper.
Did Bowyer improve Taylor or get the best out of him? Probably a mixture of both. Either way it's good managment and probably the best, if not most financially rewarding 18 months of Taylor's career. He has yet to repeat it at Forest.
Did Pratley improve on the player who had played 400 odd games before we signed him or did he play most of last season in the correct position? Which in league 1 he has hardly ever done.
If Lee Bowyer is such a good coach, especially of midfielders, how has he ended up with 7 senior (all with good league 1 or better pedigree) and 3 younger midfielders that he can't get a collective tune out of at the moment? Is that coaching, motivation, selection, tactics or something else?
The truth is probably, he isn't as good a coach as some credited him when things are going well. Nor is he as bad at anything as some of the "Bowyer out" people are saying now.
Like all his players, as a manager Bowyer is good but has faults, else he none of them would be here.0 -
Not been on here much this week but Jeez, are people STILL talking about this. It had been over-analysed by last Sunday so christ only knows what's been said since, but I ain't reading it.
Simple fact for me is you back your manager over a player. Every time. Particularly a player who has produced little.
Carry on.7 -
Every time? So if a player had produced a lot you’d consider backing the player?Off_it said:Not been on here much this week but Jeez, are people STILL talking about this. It had been over-analysed by last Sunday so christ only knows what's been said since, but I ain't reading it.
Simple fact for me is you back your manager over a player. Every time. Particularly a player who has produced little.
Carry on.0 -
If Bows went on moaning as long as this it would be bullying.0
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Must say i agree with your post Dazzler, and will just add in Jonny's defenceDazzler21 said:Just to say... Williams won a challenge then was off balance for the second, sure he did step out of it but he was so off balance and with his injury history... I can't believe he's been hauled off for that...
the guy coming at him has both feet off the ground, so potentially a dangerous
tackle, and he must have seen it coming0 -
Any one know how much JW's wage are, I heard that he was top earner c.£10k a week? seems loads, far to much for what he does but would explain a lot?0
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be very surprised if he's more than about 6.Longtimeaddicted said:Any one know how much JW's wage are, I heard that he was top earner c.£10k a week? seems loads, far to much for what he does but would explain a lot?0 -
And this is how idle speculation and random guesswork become fact.Longtimeaddicted said:Any one know how much JW's wage are, I heard that he was top earner c.£10k a week? seems loads, far to much for what he does but would explain a lot?
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Yeah that situation was, at best, 60:40 against Williams. I do see where Bowyer is coming from - Darren Pratley crashes through that and probably gets a booking - but I don't think it's realistic to ask Williams, especially given his fragile body, to engage in bone crunching tackles like that. The bigger question I would ask is where does Watson think he's going? The forward run is worth the gamble if we're chasing the game, but in the situation of us being one goal up he would be better served holding position as cover in case Williams doesn't come away with the ball.eastterrace6168 said:
Must say i agree with your post Dazzler, and will just add in Jonny's defenceDazzler21 said:Just to say... Williams won a challenge then was off balance for the second, sure he did step out of it but he was so off balance and with his injury history... I can't believe he's been hauled off for that...
the guy coming at him has both feet off the ground, so potentially a dangerous
tackle, and he must have seen it coming
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Looks like great man management from Bows.16
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CHG said:Looks like great man management from Bows.
To be fair it is also testament to William's character to come back like this. Top lad.
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Why because he scored.CHG said:Looks like great man management from Bows.
Whose to say he wouldnt have scored had Bowyer kept him on the other day.
Williams scoring today doesnt justify what Bowyer did to him the other day16 -
Agree, good character to bounce back. Bowyer got the response he was looking for. Win win.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:CHG said:Looks like great man management from Bows.
To be fair it is also testament to William's character to come back like this. Top lad.3 -
I think it does but neither of us can prove it ... but who cares as long as he scoredpaulie8290 said:
Why because he scored.CHG said:Looks like great man management from Bows.
Whose to say he wouldnt have scored had Bowyer kept him on the other day.
Williamd scoring today doesnt justify what Bowyer did to him the other day1 -
Looks like the tough love doesn’t kill players off after all8
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Tough love is fine, but keep it behind closed doors. Don't slag a player off in the media.3
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One for the snowflakes today 🙊1
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Indeed. So all's well that ends well. Hopefully lessons learned all around we can let this drop now as we march on towards promotion.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:CHG said:Looks like great man management from Bows.
To be fair it is also testament to William's character to come back like this. Top lad.3
