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Only compare us to Wigan

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  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    I don't even remember Warner!
  • Croydon
    Croydon Posts: 12,728
    Comparing us to Wigan is one of the worst takes this site has served up recently, and there's been a few. It's actually downright ignorant

    There hadn't been a single post on here this season suggesting that we were over achieving until Bowyer said it, now it's just been accepted as gospel. Anything but top 6 was a failure only TWO WEEKS ago, and that was almost unanimously agreed within the fanbase, but now it's fine to finish mid table and 'rebuild' in the summer. I wonder if any of you are this flimsy with your beliefs outside of football?
  • FAVADDICK
    FAVADDICK Posts: 584
    And they still had players that wanted to stay there and not come to us maybe he could see bowyers flaws 
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,315
    Henry Irving said:
    Act 1 Scene 1

    A boot room in South East London

    Ged Roddy, Steve Gallen and Steve Avory stand over a cauldron

    Gallen
    By the pricking of my thumbs,
    Something wicked this way comes.
    Open, locks,
    Whoever knocks!

    Enter Bowyer

    BOWYER
    How now, you secret, black, and midnight slags!
    What is't you do?
    ALL
    A deed without a name.
    BOWYER
    I conjure you, by that which you profess,
    Howe'er you come to know it, answer me:
    Though you untie the winds and let them fight
    Against the Football League; though the yesty waves
    Confound and swallow navigation up;
    Though bladed corn be lodged and trees blown down;
    Though mill walls topple on their warders' heads;
    Though palaces and pyramids do slope
    Their heads to their foundations; though the treasure
    Of nature's germens tumble all together,
    Even till destruction sicken; answer me
    To what I ask you.
    Enter SANDMAN

    SANDMAN

    To sack, or not to sack? That is the question—
    Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The slings and arrows of outrageous Portsmouth,
    Or to take arms against a Lee of troubles,
    And, by opposing, end them? To fire, to keep
    No more—and by no keep to say we end
    The heartache and the thousand nationwide shocks
    That Deji is heir to—’tis a consummation
    Devoutly to be wished! To fire, to keep.
    To keep, perchance to dream—ay, there’s the rub,
    For in that keep of deathly Bowyerball what dreams may come
    When we have shuffled through this torpid moil,
    Must give us pause. There’s the respect
    That makes calamity of so long life. 
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,846
    Croydon said:
    Comparing us to Wigan is one of the worst takes this site has served up recently, and there's been a few. It's actually downright ignorant

    There hadn't been a single post on here this season suggesting that we were over achieving until Bowyer said it, now it's just been accepted as gospel. Anything but top 6 was a failure only TWO WEEKS ago, and that was almost unanimously agreed within the fanbase, but now it's fine to finish mid table and 'rebuild' in the summer. I wonder if any of you are this flimsy with your beliefs outside of football?
    Exactly, as NOTHING about our transfer policy this year has suggested a year of consolidation, as otherwise it would have made more sense to keep the likes of Lapslie and Oztumer, play more U23s (giving the likes of Wiredu, Davison, Dempsey more game time to prove themselves) and bringing in fewer "big names" on decent wages like Gunter, Watson, Maddison and presumably Schwartz
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    Henry Irving said:
    Act 1 Scene 1

    A boot room in South East London

    Ged Roddy, Steve Gallen and Steve Avory stand over a cauldron

    Gallen
    By the pricking of my thumbs,
    Something wicked this way comes.
    Open, locks,
    Whoever knocks!

    Enter Bowyer

    BOWYER
    How now, you secret, black, and midnight slags!
    What is't you do?
    ALL
    A deed without a name.
    BOWYER
    I conjure you, by that which you profess,
    Howe'er you come to know it, answer me:
    Though you untie the winds and let them fight
    Against the Football League; though the yesty waves
    Confound and swallow navigation up;
    Though bladed corn be lodged and trees blown down;
    Though mill walls topple on their warders' heads;
    Though palaces and pyramids do slope
    Their heads to their foundations; though the treasure
    Of nature's germens tumble all together,
    Even till destruction sicken; answer me
    To what I ask you.
    Have to start calling you The Card.
  • ValleyGary
    ValleyGary Posts: 37,981
    Comparing us to Wigan?

    Jesus wept. Some reach that.
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,846
    2-3 or not 2-3, that is the question (for the score prediction thread)
  • ButtleJR
    ButtleJR Posts: 1,586
    RonnieMoore said:
    The only way to judge our season is to compare us with Wigan .. both of us were in the same situation in September/October concerning embargo, working solely under wage cap and hoping for a takeover .. luckily we got our hero in TS but look at Wigan and where they are. Another 0-5 home defeat that’s 3 this season and still no new owner ......  this could have have so easily been us .

    So we are not doing that bad after all ... if you add injuries, wonder goals scored against us plus the times we hit bar and post we have come along way and a fine line from going on a very good run .
    Think anything we archive will be a bonus this season our work really starts in the summer when LB and SG will have time to build a squad and have a proper pre season .

    You don’t undo 4/5 years of cost cutting and poor ownership in 5 months 

    Hi Lee...
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,223
    What Steve Gallen said back in November 2020

    Where will we be in five years?

    Difficult to predict. QPR spent millions to get to the Prem but are still 15th or 18th in the Championship.

    Want to get out of league 1 within two years. Top six this year, then promotion next year (HE'S NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T WANT OR DOESN'T THINK WE CAN GO UP THIS SEASON!)

    Then stabilise like Preston and Spanners in Championship, building slowly, then we can look up.  That's the way SG thinks is the way to do it, through stability.
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  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    edited February 2021
    Gallen: "Top six this year, then promotion next year"

    Didn't Bowyer ask Benji recently who said top 6 this year? #justsaying
  • Callumcafc
    Callumcafc Posts: 63,765
    SELR_addicks said:
    Comparing ourselves to a club in administration is nonsense. 

    They've been cutting costs since July and haven't had a manager since November. 

    Trying to portray this season as anything other than a failure is laughable. 
    What’s laughable is people expecting we can sign a dozen loans and free agents over the space of a two week period and then expect to be able to waltz our way to promotion.

    That’s incredibly insulting to our rivals who have in some cases built slowly, steadily and deliberately for a number of seasons in a row to get to the top of this league. Sunderland have been here going on three years, most others have been at this level even longer.

    Our status as a larger fish in the pond should mean we can work our way to the top of the pile quicker than others but we don’t have a divine right to be in the top six immediately.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    edited February 2021
    Callumcafc said:
    SELR_addicks said:
    Comparing ourselves to a club in administration is nonsense. 

    They've been cutting costs since July and haven't had a manager since November. 

    Trying to portray this season as anything other than a failure is laughable. 
    What’s laughable is people expecting we can sign a dozen loans and free agents over the space of a two week period and then expect to be able to waltz our way to promotion.

    That’s incredibly insulting to our rivals who have in some cases built slowly, steadily and deliberately for a number of seasons in a row to get to the top of this league. Sunderland have been here going on three years, most others have been at this level even longer.

    Our status as a larger fish in the pond should mean we can work our way to the top of the pile quicker than others but we don’t have a divine right to be in the top six immediately.
    If we started with no players that would be true.  All these teams that have "had years" to build their squads did they have the base we started with? 

    Amos, Philips 
    Pearce, Oshilaja, Purrington 
    JFC, Morgan, Lapslie, Pratley, Lapslie, Gilbey
    Williams, Oztumer, Doughty
    Bonne, Washington, Aneke

    Add in 5 reasonable loans, which you would expect most teams at this level to have and a splash of our U23s (which most clubs at this level don't even have) you would expect a mid table finish wouldn't you?  

  • MrOneLung
    MrOneLung Posts: 26,855
    OK - this is where we need a bar chart showing numbers of loans and free signings signed per team, correlated with the time of signing.

    will leave it to the more statistical of you, but the kids go to bed at 9pm so any time till then will be good.
  • aliwibble
    aliwibble Posts: 26,291
    edited February 2021
    To continue on the Shakespeare theme, time for some more bastardised Macbeth:
    Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
    Creeps in this dull debate from day to day
    To the last syllable of recorded time,
    And all our witterings will make no odds
    To Charlton's actual game. "Out, out, Lee Bowyer!"
    Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
    That struts and frets his hour upon the pitch
    And then is subbed again: it is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.
  • SELR_addicks
    SELR_addicks Posts: 15,446
    edited February 2021
    Callumcafc said:
    SELR_addicks said:
    Comparing ourselves to a club in administration is nonsense. 

    They've been cutting costs since July and haven't had a manager since November. 

    Trying to portray this season as anything other than a failure is laughable. 
    What’s laughable is people expecting we can sign a dozen loans and free agents over the space of a two week period and then expect to be able to waltz our way to promotion.

    That’s incredibly insulting to our rivals who have in some cases built slowly, steadily and deliberately for a number of seasons in a row to get to the top of this league. Sunderland have been here going on three years, most others have been at this level even longer.

    Our status as a larger fish in the pond should mean we can work our way to the top of the pile quicker than others but we don’t have a divine right to be in the top six immediately.
    Everyone before the season started said play-offs. 

    Everyone after the summer window said play-offs. 

    Everyone after January said play-offs. 

    Suddenly now it looks like we're failing, people are bending over backwards to try and cut Bowyer some slack. 


    The takes about squad turnover would make sense if we improved over the season. When, in fact, we've been progressively getting worse the more time Bowyer is given to work with the squad.
  • Callumcafc
    Callumcafc Posts: 63,765
    edited February 2021
    SELR_addicks said:
    Callumcafc said:
    SELR_addicks said:
    Comparing ourselves to a club in administration is nonsense. 

    They've been cutting costs since July and haven't had a manager since November. 

    Trying to portray this season as anything other than a failure is laughable. 
    What’s laughable is people expecting we can sign a dozen loans and free agents over the space of a two week period and then expect to be able to waltz our way to promotion.

    That’s incredibly insulting to our rivals who have in some cases built slowly, steadily and deliberately for a number of seasons in a row to get to the top of this league. Sunderland have been here going on three years, most others have been at this level even longer.

    Our status as a larger fish in the pond should mean we can work our way to the top of the pile quicker than others but we don’t have a divine right to be in the top six immediately.
    Everyone before the season started said play-offs. 

    Everyone after the summer window said play-offs. 

    Everyone after January said play-offs. 

    Suddenly now it looks like we're failing, people are bending over backwards to try and cut Bowyer some flack. 


    The takes about squad turnover would make sense if we improved over the season. When, in fact, we've been progressively getting worse the more time Bowyer is given to work with the squad.

    Play-offs are still very much within reach. We are sitting at 1.53ppg and ppg for sixth place each of the last five (completed) seasons are:

    18/19: 1.58
    17/18: 1.54
    16/17: 1.58
    15/16: 1.60
    14/15: 1.50
    20/21: 1.53 (CAFC)

    I'd have to go back to find the exact post but if you'd offered me 43 points from 28 games back in September, I'd have taken it.

    The fact we've got there backwards (fast start, slow recently) is not ideal but we've shown we're capable of a run of good results out of nowhere (who expected Oct/Nov run of results?) and despite all the doom and gloom on here, there's absolutely no reason we can't get back to that point again. 
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,729
    edited February 2021
    Bowyer said himself that anything other than top six would be a failure relatively recently. Assuming he wasn't lying and bearing in mind it is still possible to finish in the top six I'm a bit bemused as to why he mentioned Wigan at all.
  • RaplhMilne
    RaplhMilne Posts: 4,601
    We really have reached the stage, where I am seriously worried that Boywerism really is a cult. I truly think Ronniemoore believes that we are comparable to Wigan, an that makes no sense at all to any reasonable person. Try telling Thomas, that everything he has done so far, and any support he has given the club, actually amounts to nothing, and we are comparable with Wigan. 

    Sorry anyone who believes this, needs to take a look at their mindset. 

  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Bowyer said himself that anything other than top six would be a failure relatively recently. Assuming he wasn't lying and bearing in mind it is still possible to finish in the top six I'm a bit bemused as to why he mentioned Wigan at all.
    Didn't he later shout down Benji for asking about top six? Asked who set top six as a target or something like that.
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  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    RaplhMilne said:
    We really have reached the stage, where I am seriously worried that Boywerism really is a cult. I truly think Ronniemoore believes that we are comparable to Wigan, an that makes no sense at all to any reasonable person. Try telling Thomas, that everything he has done so far, and any support he has given the club, actually amounts to nothing, and we are comparable with Wigan. 

    Sorry anyone who believes this, needs to take a look at their mindset. 

    Bowyerism as you called it has reached the stage where there are some people that believe he is beyond any critisim at all. Everything that he has done is because of circumstances.

    There is a valid argument for having sacked him in December, give him until we can't make the play offs, give him the summer, even to give him until this time next year.  Regardless of the results in the mean time. 

    However anyone that doesn't think he has made mistakes, that have directly impacted results over the last year, or more, is either not watching the games or saying it to get a reaction. 
  • LargeAddick
    LargeAddick Posts: 32,561
    Henry Irving said:
    What Steve Gallen said back in November 2020

    Where will we be in five years?

    Difficult to predict. QPR spent millions to get to the Prem but are still 15th or 18th in the Championship.

    Want to get out of league 1 within two years. Top six this year, then promotion next year (HE'S NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T WANT OR DOESN'T THINK WE CAN GO UP THIS SEASON!)

    Then stabilise like Preston and Spanners in Championship, building slowly, then we can look up.  That's the way SG thinks is the way to do it, through stability.
    So top six this season is the minimum requirement, anything less is failure.
  • NapaAddick
    NapaAddick Posts: 4,657
    BigRedEvil said:
    We've signed a squad load of players since October and have been poor apart from a 6 game spell. 

    Are they all bad players or is the manager not getting enough from them? 

    Or maybe, as many believe, it takes 6 months for new players to gel?
  • Croydon
    Croydon Posts: 12,728
    NapaAddick said:
    BigRedEvil said:
    We've signed a squad load of players since October and have been poor apart from a 6 game spell. 

    Are they all bad players or is the manager not getting enough from them? 

    Or maybe, as many believe, it takes 6 months for new players to gel?
    6 months? Where do you get that from? No squad should ever take 6 months to gel. 
  • NapaAddick
    NapaAddick Posts: 4,657
    Croydon said:
    NapaAddick said:
    BigRedEvil said:
    We've signed a squad load of players since October and have been poor apart from a 6 game spell. 

    Are they all bad players or is the manager not getting enough from them? 

    Or maybe, as many believe, it takes 6 months for new players to gel?
    6 months? Where do you get that from? No squad should ever take 6 months to gel. 

    Sir Alex Ferguson said it routinely took 5 months for his new players to gel at ManU when he was manager. I've heard six mentioned for years. We've added half a team this season. More? I would think it takes half a season. Could be wrong!
  • se9addick
    se9addick Posts: 32,037
    NapaAddick said:
    Croydon said:
    NapaAddick said:
    BigRedEvil said:
    We've signed a squad load of players since October and have been poor apart from a 6 game spell. 

    Are they all bad players or is the manager not getting enough from them? 

    Or maybe, as many believe, it takes 6 months for new players to gel?
    6 months? Where do you get that from? No squad should ever take 6 months to gel. 

    Sir Alex Ferguson said it routinely took 5 months for his new players to gel at ManU when he was manager. I've heard six mentioned for years. We've added half a team this season. More? I would think it takes half a season. Could be wrong!
    Just admit it, we’re all friends here, you made up the “six months” thing didn’t you?
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    NapaAddick said:
    Croydon said:
    NapaAddick said:
    BigRedEvil said:
    We've signed a squad load of players since October and have been poor apart from a 6 game spell. 

    Are they all bad players or is the manager not getting enough from them? 

    Or maybe, as many believe, it takes 6 months for new players to gel?
    6 months? Where do you get that from? No squad should ever take 6 months to gel. 

    Sir Alex Ferguson said it routinely took 5 months for his new players to gel at ManU when he was manager. I've heard six mentioned for years. We've added half a team this season. More? I would think it takes half a season. Could be wrong!
    I think the quote you are referring to, although I can't find it, is about foreign players taking 6 months to settle and get used to the pace of the league.   I don't think that's applicable to Watson and Gunter 🤷‍♂️

    Plus 10 of our 18 on Saturday were here last season. 
  • MrOneLung
    MrOneLung Posts: 26,855
    Just our luck all these other teams didn’t bring in any new players this season. 

    Makes our overachieving even more impressive. 
  • FishCostaFortune
    FishCostaFortune Posts: 10,773
    Lincoln who are currently top had 14 players come in during the summer window.

    What's there managers secret? 
  • RonnieMoore
    RonnieMoore Posts: 4,496
    FishCostaFortune said:
    Lincoln who are currently top had 14 players come in during the summer window.

    What's there managers secret? 

    They could do it before the wage cap come in ..... we had to do all our deals during the wage cap also div one teams had months to prepare we had a few weeks 

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