I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
A trans woman is not the same as a biological woman. It's insulting to both to suggest they are the same.
Is it? Would like to know the trans community’s view on this.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
Because she was born as a man and has an unfair physical advantage over the females that were born female.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
A trans woman is not the same as a biological woman. It's insulting to both to suggest they are the same.
Is it? Would like to know the trans community’s view on this.
I'll talk to my trans community supporting mate and see what he thinks.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
Because she was born as a man and has an unfair physical advantage over the females that were born female.
Right, but there’s women born as a female that would have unfair physical advantage over other women, should they be segregated too?
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
What I was just about to say. I find the whole thing a farce. If however I’d had a daughter who lets say had dreamed all her life of being an Olympic swimmer, had been getting up at 5am since 8yrs old for pre-school pool sessions, sacrificed her teenage years and potential career prospects to try and be the best in a low paid sport, only to never have a realistic opportunity because a male elite swimmer had decided to transition, I’d be calling it more than a farce.
No-one has failed to qualify for the Olympics because Laurel Hubbard has been selected. The New Zealand weightlifting team is two and a half times more numerous than at the last Olympics: they're taking more weightlifters. Laurel Hubbard is part of a team, with team-mates, not an competitor who has taken someone else's place.
The examples of a para weightlifting competitor and a made-up swimmer are interesting, but not relevant.
Lauren Hubbard qualified to compete for New Zealand in the Olympics, within the rules of the Olympics and with the support of New Zealand. No-one has missed out.
What about the woman who came second in the New Zealand weightlifting trials in her weight group? Does she have the right to be pissed off for missing the selection?
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
Because she was born as a man and has an unfair physical advantage over the females that were born female.
Right, but there’s women born as a female that would have unfair physical advantage over other women, should they be segregated too?
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
Transwomen are transwomen. Why do we have separate competitions for men and women in most sports except those that is has been deemed no advantage to be one sex over another eg. equestrian and sailing
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
A trans woman is not the same as a biological woman. It's insulting to both to suggest they are the same.
hope paddyp doesn't read this .. he'll demand your instant excommunication (or worse)
There's a difference between "not the same" and not "real" enough, whatever that latter term means.
It absolutely would not be right to say trans and cis women are the same - trans women, for instance, likely have a risk of prostate cancer (and indeed have far higher risk of being abused; higher rates of death by suicide; far lower life expectancy etc etc).
But "realness" - no mate, you're just wrong about what real means. What's a real man, for instance? Cos back in the day you had to man up, boys don't cry, like your football or some sort of sport, etc etc, didn't you?
I also never demanded your "instant excommunication", so wind it in.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
A trans woman is not the same as a biological woman. It's insulting to both to suggest they are the same.
Is it? Would like to know the trans community’s view on this.
There are a number of different views on this, each person holding a view entitled to their opinion
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
Because she was born as a man and has an unfair physical advantage over the females that were born female.
Right, but there’s women born as a female that would have unfair physical advantage over other women, should they be segregated too?
Sports are segregated by sex on the basis of Male and female physical characteristics? Would you be happy for this to be scrapped?
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
That's a false comparison though. Race or sexuality doesn't equate to an inherent advantage in weight lifting but a woman who has transitioned after puberty DOES. That's not transphobic, it's a fact.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
That's a false comparison though. Race or sexuality doesn't equate to an inherent advantage in weight lifting but a woman who has transitioned after puberty DOES. That's not transphobic, it's a fact.
The trouble is in a lot of debate over gender facts become an inconvenience.
I have every sympathy with the person involved, I just wish there was a solution that everyone could come out of this with having a clear conscience.....someone is going to feel pain and sadness along the way. The fact remains that there is a male body ‘acting out’ that of a female......therefore sadly I have to say I object to the decision to allow him/her to compete in physical female competitions. Forget the testosterone argument. Good luck to you Lauren, wherever life takes you. I have every sympathy but sorry, I can’t get on your side in this unfathomable situation.
Whatever solution there is will involve compromise and some will argue it is unfair. Laurel Hubbard will have to deal with a lot of attention and if she wins there will be heated debate.
As more trans women enter sport the issue will attract more attention.
The facts are that male and female sport are split because in 90% of sports men have a biological advantage. The men's athletics world records are all about 10% better than the women's equivalent (see below).
Most of the biological advantage is gained at pubity some of it is reversible through medication (although that sounds like the wrong word) but not all of it. The inverse is also true that if you go through pubity as a woman you could not over come the natural biological disadvantage if you transition to a man.
So if you prevent transwomen from women's sport they are unlikely to be able to compete in men's sport due to the testosterone reduction therefore can't play any sport at all, not at a high level anyway. Transmen are unlikely to be able to compete in men's sport either.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
Because she was born as a man and has an unfair physical advantage over the females that were born female.
Right, but there’s women born as a female that would have unfair physical advantage over other women, should they be segregated too?
Off beam question here but where is sethplum? Not seen a post for a while
Off beam but I notice the first thread in a month involving disagreements prompted you to think of him :-)
Yes, with regret Seth has recently had his microphone and guitar taken away from him. Seth’s been part of the CL band since the early days so we are hopeful it will be be temporary and not permanent, and we’ll be back making (non-political) music together again sooner rather than later.
Such a hugely difficult issue and I feel very sorry for everyone involved.
It seems to be that society has come to conceive of a difference between biological sex and gender, and that seems very reasonable to me. People have a right to identify as they wish, but I do feel that society needs to maintain a category difference between, say, women and transwomen in certain circumstances.
Of course, in sport we have the added complication that we need to insist that transwomen compete as their biological sex but that transmen should compete as their identified gender. I saw a heartbreaking documentary about a transmale wrestler in Texas. She was taking large volumes of testosterone as part of her transition and desperately wanted to compete as a male, but the rules there insist that everyone must compete in their biological sex. So she had a huge advantage that she desperately did not want and was booed out of every venue she competed in. Just awful.
I don't know anything about this lady weightlifter, so I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that she is anything other than honest in how she is living, but the situation in (particularly women's) sports is complicated much further by the nature of the American college system, where it can be a life-changing event to be given a sports scholarship. If a person can self-identify as a gender they choose, then the opportunity to game the system is apparent.
I would hate to be the person making the decision, and I feel terribly sorry that she is in a position that is not of her making, but for me the decision has to be no.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
Because she was born as a man and has an unfair physical advantage over the females that were born female.
Right, but there’s women born as a female that would have unfair physical advantage over other women, should they be segregated too?
You do come out with some shit.
If your only contribution to a discussion is to post an insult - it’s probably best not to post at all.
Comments
It absolutely would not be right to say trans and cis women are the same - trans women, for instance, likely have a risk of prostate cancer (and indeed have far higher risk of being abused; higher rates of death by suicide; far lower life expectancy etc etc).
But "realness" - no mate, you're just wrong about what real means. What's a real man, for instance? Cos back in the day you had to man up, boys don't cry, like your football or some sort of sport, etc etc, didn't you?
I also never demanded your "instant excommunication", so wind it in.
That's a false comparison though. Race or sexuality doesn't equate to an inherent advantage in weight lifting but a woman who has transitioned after puberty DOES.
That's not transphobic, it's a fact.
The fact remains that there is a male body ‘acting out’ that of a female......therefore sadly I have to say I object to the decision to allow him/her to compete in physical female competitions.
Forget the testosterone argument.
Good luck to you Lauren, wherever life takes you.
I have every sympathy but sorry, I can’t get on your side in this unfathomable situation.
Laurel Hubbard will have to deal with a lot of attention and if she wins there will be heated debate.
As more trans women enter sport the issue will attract more attention.
Most of the biological advantage is gained at pubity some of it is reversible through medication (although that sounds like the wrong word) but not all of it. The inverse is also true that if you go through pubity as a woman you could not over come the natural biological disadvantage if you transition to a man.
So if you prevent transwomen from women's sport they are unlikely to be able to compete in men's sport due to the testosterone reduction therefore can't play any sport at all, not at a high level anyway. Transmen are unlikely to be able to compete in men's sport either.
It's a bloody difficult problem to have to solve.
Yes, with regret Seth has recently had his microphone and guitar taken away from him. Seth’s been part of the CL band since the early days so we are hopeful it will be be temporary and not permanent, and we’ll be back making (non-political) music together again sooner rather than later.