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The Dangers of a Cashless Society.
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Lol was gonna say unless they get a chip n pin machineO-Randy-Hunt said:Gribbo said:Not thought about this too much, but do remember a news report I watched on the first bakers come coffee shop to go cashless (think it was one of thoes in Turnham Green Terrace from memory). The manager was coming over like he was doing a massive service to his customers, but I remember thinking; it's okay for these poncy places to do it, but what happens if / when all the bakers and food places go cashless? What are homeless people with no bank account and who beg for their money going to do? Or those who have done the odd job for 20 quid, and that what they've got to live on for the next week or 2?
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Dealing with the homeless people properly by not having a homelessness accepted society would be a start. It’s also not desirable to make your policy to facilitate a tiny tiny minority of the population. I doubt completely cashless society is that close but it’s inevitable.Gribbo said:Not thought about this too much, but do remember a news report I watched on the first bakers come coffee shop to go cashless (think it was one of thoes in Turnham Green Terrace from memory). The manager was coming over like he was doing a massive service to his customers, but I remember thinking; it's okay for these poncy places to do it, but what happens if / when all the bakers and food places go cashless? What are homeless people with no bank account and who beg for their money going to do? Or those who have done the odd job for 20 quid, and that what they've got to live on for the next week or 2?4 -
Of course, but in the time we're eradicating homelessness, those people have to eat.ShootersHillGuru said:
Dealing with the homeless people properly by not having a homelessness accepted society would be a start. It’s also not desirable to make your policy to facilitate a tiny tiny minority of the population. I doubt completely cashless society is that close but it’s inevitable.Gribbo said:Not thought about this too much, but do remember a news report I watched on the first bakers come coffee shop to go cashless (think it was one of thoes in Turnham Green Terrace from memory). The manager was coming over like he was doing a massive service to his customers, but I remember thinking; it's okay for these poncy places to do it, but what happens if / when all the bakers and food places go cashless? What are homeless people with no bank account and who beg for their money going to do? Or those who have done the odd job for 20 quid, and that what they've got to live on for the next week or 2?
Re; policies catering for tiny tiny minorities of the population - They're brought in all the time for other relatively trivial reasons, so introducing another one to keep people in food, doesn't seem like such a bad idea imo1 -
I can't speak for the US but I can tell you that, outside of genuine issues of life and death, the authorities cannot simply ring up the bank and get a complete break down of anyone's transaction history. A certain amount of info maybe, perhaps to confirm intel that a suspect uses a particular pub at a particular time, but in general an order from the Crown Court will be required to access an individuals full account.ShootersHillGuru said:
I agree. The thought that Priti Patel and Boris Johnson are watching my weekly movements between Sainsbury’s and Screwfix terrifies me. Recently I’ve been using Asda and Toolstation in order to throw them off the scent. This conspiracy bollox really makes me laugh. Mobile phones have been able to be used to track our movements for years. Surveillance cameras and ANPR as well. I really couldn’t give a monkeys whether the government have any interest in my movements or spending habits. I live a completely average and mundane if not quite boring life. I am of no interest to anyone and neither are 99.999999999999999% of everyone else.NapaAddick said:Government uses the excuse that getting rid of cash will stop drug dealers and criminals. What a croc. It's just their excuse to force inflation on people by not giving them any ways to opt out of a currency and also to keep tabs on them and what they spend. Not a surprise that in tandem with this awful idea is another wheeze to have currency that depreciates to zero after a fixed time so that people have to spend it. God forbid people save money. Most Western governments are not horrified at how China tracks people, they are envious of it.
Access is also restricted to properly accredited Financial Investigators not your average bobby.0 -
What is a tiny minority?
There are figures from 2019 that suggest there are 500,000 homeless people.
Not all of them on the streets, but presumably many are people without an address kosher enough for a bank account or some kind of cashless payment system.
500,000 is 0.7 % of the population.
What else might be tiny?
The population of Gravesend is around 66,000, which is 0.09% of the population. I wonder what they would do if a local electronic system broke down or was compromised.
Now scattered around the whole of the UK such numbers may seem tiny locality by locality, but as numbers are wont to do, they add up.
In addition we have witnessed post offices and banks closing in smaller more remote parts of the UK which has caused problems.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8740/
If minorities ought to have their needs catered for, such as dare I say (and quite rightly in my opinion) transgender people, then I would suggest it is a larger 'tiny' minority than that that still needs a functioning system using cash.
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It’s difficult these days although not impossible to avoid loyalty cards and subscribing to online shopping marketing ploys like providing e Mail details when buying online. I can fully understand why it’s gold dust to retailers and who can blame them for utilising a tool to bring a shopper into their sphere of influence. It can be for the most part avoided though. To have your telephone traced unless you subscribe to one of the tracking apps for family members is only in the province of the police and security services. The same goes for details of when and where a debit / credit card is used. The biggest and not so easily avoided scrutiny is ANPR and surveillance cameras. I don’t really have an issue with either0
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As said before, I use cash most of the time and have actually started avoiding using cards like avoiding the plague. Always carry cash and choose to leave my cards at home nearly every time I go out.
Also, burying/hiding cards isn't quite as gangster as doing so with cash.
Other bonuses of cash is building up the various 'change' pots we have around the house that the kids use whenever they need a bit.
I've also noticed just how thick/lazy, mathematically, some retail workers have become now they don't have to think about cash as much.4 -
I find using cash makes it easier to budget. Draw £100 for the shopping and thats all you can spend, whereas with a card, is entirely probable that you'll go 10 or 20 quid over each time, but still have in you head that it was a 100 quid shop. Soon mounts up
I used a similar strategy when I used to go out for the weekend benders; take the cash I thought I'd need and leave cards at home. Probably the reason I used to spend Monday evenings driving round every pub between the Woolwich Ferry and Creek Road, clearing tabs I'd built up over the Saturday / Sunday2 -
We’re a long way from being cashless, and the movement towards it has been convenience driven so far. I doubt the government will get involved until cash usage drops significantly.Gribbo said:I find using cash makes it easier to budget. Draw £100 for the shopping and thats all you can spend, whereas with a card, is entirely probable that you'll go 10 or 20 quid over each time, but still have in you head that it was a 100 quid shop. Soon mounts up
I used a similar strategy when I used to go out for the weekend benders; take the cash I thought I'd need and leave cards at home. Probably the reason I used to spend Monday evenings driving round every pub between the Woolwich Ferry and Creek Road, clearing tabs I'd built up over the Saturday / SundayThe use of cash as a budgeting tool is interesting but easily resolved. Here Gillette Stadium where the Patriot and Revolution play has gone cashless. If you don’t have a card you can go to a number of machines where you can insert cash and get back a prepaid card that you can use anywhere. If people see this as as useful, cash dispensers would become card dispensers.I’m sure there are plenty of other issues, but for most there will be a solution.0 - Sponsored links:
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I've never budgeted so well as since I had a Monzo account I always know to the penny what I have and I can put money into different 'pots' so I know I'll have enough for everything. Very rarely use cash now, in comparison it's just so much hassle.Gribbo said:I find using cash makes it easier to budget. Draw £100 for the shopping and thats all you can spend, whereas with a card, is entirely probable that you'll go 10 or 20 quid over each time, but still have in you head that it was a 100 quid shop. Soon mounts up
I used a similar strategy when I used to go out for the weekend benders; take the cash I thought I'd need and leave cards at home. Probably the reason I used to spend Monday evenings driving round every pub between the Woolwich Ferry and Creek Road, clearing tabs I'd built up over the Saturday / Sunday4 -
Never heard of Monzo. Will look em upStig said:
I've never budgeted so well as since I had a Monzo account I always know to the penny what I have and I can put money into different 'pots' so I know I'll have enough for everything. Very rarely use cash now, in comparison it's just so much hassle.Gribbo said:I find using cash makes it easier to budget. Draw £100 for the shopping and thats all you can spend, whereas with a card, is entirely probable that you'll go 10 or 20 quid over each time, but still have in you head that it was a 100 quid shop. Soon mounts up
I used a similar strategy when I used to go out for the weekend benders; take the cash I thought I'd need and leave cards at home. Probably the reason I used to spend Monday evenings driving round every pub between the Woolwich Ferry and Creek Road, clearing tabs I'd built up over the Saturday / Sunday2 -
Not at all what I said though.Off_it said:
Yep, the government always knows best. Just ask the Uyghurs!Stu_of_Kunming said:
As someone who has spent the majority of my adult life in China, these policies have only ever made my life easier, it’s been possible to live cashless for years and I’d honestly hate the idea of going back to having to carry germ ridden notes around with me.NapaAddick said:Government uses the excuse that getting rid of cash will stop drug dealers and criminals. What a croc. It's just their excuse to force inflation on people by not giving them any ways to opt out of a currency and also to keep tabs on them and what they spend. Not a surprise that in tandem with this awful idea is another wheeze to have currency that depreciates to zero after a fixed time so that people have to spend it. God forbid people save money. Most Western governments are not horrified at how China tracks people, they are envious of it.2 -
I know to the penny what is in all my accounts. All the banks have an app. Why is monzo so different.Stig said:
I've never budgeted so well as since I had a Monzo account I always know to the penny what I have and I can put money into different 'pots' so I know I'll have enough for everything. Very rarely use cash now, in comparison it's just so much hassle.Gribbo said:I find using cash makes it easier to budget. Draw £100 for the shopping and thats all you can spend, whereas with a card, is entirely probable that you'll go 10 or 20 quid over each time, but still have in you head that it was a 100 quid shop. Soon mounts up
I used a similar strategy when I used to go out for the weekend benders; take the cash I thought I'd need and leave cards at home. Probably the reason I used to spend Monday evenings driving round every pub between the Woolwich Ferry and Creek Road, clearing tabs I'd built up over the Saturday / SundayAnd don’t get me started on revolut - working for an international payments company I can categorically state that we have nore
problems with revolut than any other bank0 -
Stu_of_Kunming said:
As someone who has spent the majority of my adult life in China, these policies have only ever made my life easier, it’s been possible to live cashless for years and I’d honestly hate the idea of going back to having to carry germ ridden notes around with me.NapaAddick said:Government uses the excuse that getting rid of cash will stop drug dealers and criminals. What a croc. It's just their excuse to force inflation on people by not giving them any ways to opt out of a currency and also to keep tabs on them and what they spend. Not a surprise that in tandem with this awful idea is another wheeze to have currency that depreciates to zero after a fixed time so that people have to spend it. God forbid people save money. Most Western governments are not horrified at how China tracks people, they are envious of it.
Since when HAVE YOU had to carry cash? It's been an option for me for about 15 years. I use debit cards for 98% of my purchases and could easily make it 100%, as can everyone I know. But there is a difference between the option to go cashless and no choice at all.
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Ive never HNapaAddick said:
I’ve never HAD TO carry cash, in the sense that buying stuff is optional, but when I left the UK living without cash would have been hugely problematic, loads of places had minimum spends to use a card and/or charges for doing so, now I just use my phone and scan a QR code, I don’t even need to use a bank account as the app has a standalone wallet. Much easier for everyone imo.Stu_of_Kunming said:
As someone who has spent the majority of my adult life in China, these policies have only ever made my life easier, it’s been possible to live cashless for years and I’d honestly hate the idea of going back to having to carry germ ridden notes around with me.NapaAddick said:Government uses the excuse that getting rid of cash will stop drug dealers and criminals. What a croc. It's just their excuse to force inflation on people by not giving them any ways to opt out of a currency and also to keep tabs on them and what they spend. Not a surprise that in tandem with this awful idea is another wheeze to have currency that depreciates to zero after a fixed time so that people have to spend it. God forbid people save money. Most Western governments are not horrified at how China tracks people, they are envious of it.
Since when HAVE YOU had to carry cash? It's been an option for me for about 15 years. I use debit cards for 98% of my purchases and could easily make it 100%, as can everyone I know. But there is a difference between the option to go cashless and no choice at all.0 -
Monzo Dog Doo Dah Band0
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Wow, that's genuinely surprising to hear. Any place that forces cash I know of just loses business. Most places in the US have been allowing debit cards for 10-15 years. Maybe not in the South where they are still sometimes breed within the family, but most normal places. Covid just accelerated it. Most places I know of here, including one coffee shop, even allow PayPal to pay for items.Stu_of_Kunming said:Ive never HNapaAddick said: I’ve never HAD TO carry cash, in the sense that buying stuff is optional, but when I left the UK living without cash would have been hugely problematic, loads of places had minimum spends to use a card and/or charges for doing so...
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I don't know that Monzo is any different, I just know that it works very well for me; it's the first time in my life I've ever felt really in control of my bank account. I have a couple of old accounts with Natwest and Lloyds. I've never downloaded their apps but I do use their online banking and they always seem really clunky. It might be an unfair comparison though because it's not as if I've tested them like for like.MrOneLung said:
I know to the penny what is in all my accounts. All the banks have an app. Why is monzo so different.Stig said:
I've never budgeted so well as since I had a Monzo account I always know to the penny what I have and I can put money into different 'pots' so I know I'll have enough for everything. Very rarely use cash now, in comparison it's just so much hassle.Gribbo said:I find using cash makes it easier to budget. Draw £100 for the shopping and thats all you can spend, whereas with a card, is entirely probable that you'll go 10 or 20 quid over each time, but still have in you head that it was a 100 quid shop. Soon mounts up
I used a similar strategy when I used to go out for the weekend benders; take the cash I thought I'd need and leave cards at home. Probably the reason I used to spend Monday evenings driving round every pub between the Woolwich Ferry and Creek Road, clearing tabs I'd built up over the Saturday / SundayAnd don’t get me started on revolut - working for an international payments company I can categorically state that we have nore
problems with revolut than any other bank1 -
Cash is king , ask the beggars0
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MrOneLung said:
I know to the penny what is in all my accounts. All the banks have an app. Why is monzo so different.Stig said:
I've never budgeted so well as since I had a Monzo account I always know to the penny what I have and I can put money into different 'pots' so I know I'll have enough for everything. Very rarely use cash now, in comparison it's just so much hassle.Gribbo said:I find using cash makes it easier to budget. Draw £100 for the shopping and thats all you can spend, whereas with a card, is entirely probable that you'll go 10 or 20 quid over each time, but still have in you head that it was a 100 quid shop. Soon mounts up
I used a similar strategy when I used to go out for the weekend benders; take the cash I thought I'd need and leave cards at home. Probably the reason I used to spend Monday evenings driving round every pub between the Woolwich Ferry and Creek Road, clearing tabs I'd built up over the Saturday / SundayAnd don’t get me started on revolut - working for an international payments company I can categorically state that we have nore
problems with revolut than any other bank
The likes of Monzo and Starling have debit's that are instant, so they come off your balance the second you spend on your debit card (rather than 'pending' for 24 hours that most banks have).
Legacy banks are quickly catching up.0 -
The Legacy banks can, but only after two or three years, as there tech stacks are a shambles.0
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Most “legacy” banks’ apps are dogshit, nearly unusable, clunky and slow. Monzo is intuitive, clean and fast. Their customer service is also lightening quick, monzo were very slow at replacing my card just before leaving to go abroad, I went on their in app live chat and by the afternoon I had a new card delivered to me special delivery. I can also create round up pots, in which each transaction is rounded up to the nearest pound and the difference is put into a savings pot. I do mine so it’s locked until November and I usually have £200 ish to spend on Christmas presents.Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked.0
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kentaddick said:Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked.
Of course they're not "fucked"!
They might lose a bit of market share, maybe for a bit or maybe permanently, but if you think people having instant knowledge of how much (or how little) they have in their accounts, or having a jazzy App that tells them they have no money, is going to make that much difference is incredibly naive.
Look at the energy market. So many new players, new apps and new innovations (e.g. my supplier pays interest on any credits on your account), but how many people are still unquestioningly with British Gas for absolutely no reason whatsever?
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if you could choose between 0.5% interest rates and 5% interest rates on savings, which would you choose? The high street bank is dying, Barclays and Santander have packed up near me. Like blockbusters, they had their opportunity to move with the times and never took it.Off_it said:kentaddick said:Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked.
Of course they're not "fucked"!
They might lose a bit of market share, maybe for a bit or maybe permanently, but if you think people having instant knowledge of how much (or how little) they have in their accounts, or having a jazzy App that tells them they have no money, is going to make that much difference is incredibly naive.
Look at the energy market. So many new players, new apps and new innovations (e.g. my supplier pays interest on any credits on your account), but how many people are still unquestioningly with British Gas for absolutely no reason whatsever?1 -
kentaddick said:Most “legacy” banks’ apps are dogshit, nearly unusable, clunky and slow. Monzo is intuitive, clean and fast. Their customer service is also lightening quick, monzo were very slow at replacing my card just before leaving to go abroad, I went on their in app live chat and by the afternoon I had a new card delivered to me special delivery. I can also create round up pots, in which each transaction is rounded up to the nearest pound and the difference is put into a savings pot. I do mine so it’s locked until November and I usually have £200 ish to spend on Christmas presents.Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked.
I think it depends what you want from your bank, I've had both Monzo and Starling and found them useless for what I needed (I rarely use my debit card for instance). But can see how their app appeals to people budgeting, My daughter loved Starling whilst at Uni and if I suggested HSBC, FD or Metro bank as the ones I use she'd laugh.
But note Metro bank you can walk in and get a new card printed there and then. Their App is awful though!
Their Tech wasn't that great IMHO either, the main advantage was instant notifications if that's something you need (HSBC now do them), for 14 months I was unable to use Apple Pay, Starling blaming MasterCard, yet I had it confirmed by someone who worked with them it was Starlings issue. Couldn't access other than on my phone (have now improved that a little). EDIT - also a big 'pay at pump' issue back in the day.
Horses for courses, either way my only advice would be to make sure you have two current accounts, can make life much easier if you encounter issues.
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Every time a card payment goes over my NatWest account I get a notification on my screen of amount and vendor1
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That's just a funless way of doing what I do by putting all change, and small note denominations, in pots around the house.kentaddick said:Most “legacy” banks’ apps are dogshit, nearly unusable, clunky and slow. Monzo is intuitive, clean and fast. Their customer service is also lightening quick, monzo were very slow at replacing my card just before leaving to go abroad, I went on their in app live chat and by the afternoon I had a new card delivered to me special delivery. I can also create round up pots, in which each transaction is rounded up to the nearest pound and the difference is put into a savings pot. I do mine so it’s locked until November and I usually have £200 ish to spend on Christmas presents.Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked.
My way has the same end result but also means we have some great card games with the kids using the money, it's readily available to everyone to dip in to whenever they want, is useful for tipping delivery drivers, using for school fetes, collections boxes (charities will lose revenue if cash goes and there's a multitude of reasons why) and many other things.
The solution will be a mix, as it is now.0 -
@MrOneLung Is it instant? Do you get a clear display of the running balance?0
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Are you asking me or asking Joe Public?kentaddick said:
if you could choose between 0.5% interest rates and 5% interest rates on savings, which would you choose? The high street bank is dying, Barclays and Santander have packed up near me. Like blockbusters, they had their opportunity to move with the times and never took it.Off_it said:kentaddick said:Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked.
Of course they're not "fucked"!
They might lose a bit of market share, maybe for a bit or maybe permanently, but if you think people having instant knowledge of how much (or how little) they have in their accounts, or having a jazzy App that tells them they have no money, is going to make that much difference is incredibly naive.
Look at the energy market. So many new players, new apps and new innovations (e.g. my supplier pays interest on any credits on your account), but how many people are still unquestioningly with British Gas for absolutely no reason whatsever?
There's always a "better deal" out there. Who can forget the Icelandic banks offering great interest rates (before they went bust) and I even remember a Nigerian bank offering to top those at the time (and all this century, before you ask!)
But the fact is that people stay with what they know, be that banks, energy companies or the brand of beans they buy. It's well understood and proven. It's human nature.
That's why "legacy banks" don't try as hard as new disrupter brands, because they don't need to. Yes, some will eventually fall by the wayside, but the rest will adapt before they make themselves obsolete - its' the way things have always been.
At the end of the day new shiny apps and great customer service isn't going to make a blind bit of difference to 80% of banking customers.
Edit: and just because high street branches are closing doesn't mean the banks are "dying". Barclays make fuck all out of their branches anyway and would probably close most of those left in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.8
