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Charlton Only - January 2022 Transfer Rumours (Deadline Day p.97)

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  • Gammon
    Gammon Posts: 338
    golfaddick said:
    SomervilleAddick said:
    Vincenzo said:
    Harsh. Kirk has already proven he's good enough to excel in this division, which is why we bought him. 

    He's a young lad moving down south who just lost his dad. It's understandable if he hasn't settled, but given the talent he's already shown, it's up to us as well as Kirk to get the best out of him. 
    Maybe I’m an old curmudgeon, but can we stop with the “he’s a young lad”. He’s 24, not some teenager. He might not like living in London, and that’s fine, but at this point his age shouldn’t be playing into this. 
    Also we signed him in August & I believe his dad died around that time too. That's 5 months ago. I know grief is different for everyone but I'm sure its not affecting him on a day-to-day basis now.
    I think this has had a bigger effect on him than anyone gives credit for. Some people struggle really hard to push on and adapt. It’s one of the most life altering things alongside moving. Both of which he did then had to be in front of a crowd of tens of thousands for a day job. Without his usual support network of friends and family nearby. Sod that.

    I think he played shit, and probably moving up north will do both parties good.

    But surely we can’t just think he should be properly over it and will probably have a day to day effect. 
  • charltonbob
    charltonbob Posts: 8,254
    addick1956 said:
    charltonnick said:
    With Kirk if he goes to Blackpool and does well surely the fee to make the move permanent goes up. There is a slim chance we might even end up making a profit. 
    We ?  Who are we ? Did you put any money up for the fee then ?
    Good grief, you've got a problem mate.
  • charltonbob
    charltonbob Posts: 8,254
    Weegie Addick said:
    esseffect said:
    Callumcafc said:
    Croydon said:
    Garrymanilow said:
    Let's be honest, we only kept Watson because he triggered a contract extension and no-one was going to take him off us
    Should have stopped playing him last season as soon as we were close to the number of appearances needed for the extension.
    There was a moment last night where Hartlepool tried breaking from our corner - the ball flew in his direction and he was completely unready for it. He ended up shanking it behind him and falling over.

    Not to mention he completely failed to close down the bloke who scored their equalizing goal. Post match, Jackson said the team had spoken about how he likes to cut in and shoot from his left foot. Watson got had all that knowledge in his head but still got nowhere near him.

    If he didn't believe his playing career is dead after last night, I think he might be delusional.
    My favourite bit is when the lad scored, Watson looks to his left and throws his arms up to immediately blame someone else. No one was there…
    Perfect coach material?? Please, no.
    No need we have Yeovils main man  :(
  • Callumcafc
    Callumcafc Posts: 63,760
    edited January 2022
    milesfromLondon said:
    Hi all. Really interesting reading your views on the squad but this thread is titled 'transfer rumours'. Are there any? And either way can we bitch and moan about the current squad on other, more appropriate, threads?
    Putting a nice big red X on my transfer rumour thread bingo card - thank you. :-)
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,219

  • Scoham
    Scoham Posts: 37,375
    Kirk having medical at Blackpool. Article is from yesterday but don’t remember that being the headline.

    https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/charlton-athletic-winger-charlie-kirk-undergoing-blackpool-medical/
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    cabbles said:
    Henry Irving said:
    My gut feeling was that over the summer analytics took precedence over traditional scouting and squad building.

    There is a place for both but a computer algorithm isn't the same as knowing if a player will be happy in London or if he'll play well in a different formation with different players and, as it turned out, under a different manager.

    It doesn't help, IMHO, if one of the analysts is in Australia and the neither of the then manager or Head of Recruitment have the final say.

    Add the budget not being as big as those of Ipswich and Wigan and not realising that many of the league 1 and 2 players we were targeting would go to the championship because if we thought they were good so would others with deeper pockets and you can get a feel for what was, IMHO, going on over the summer.

    But we still made some strong signings IMHO

    Stockley, Famewo, Macca, Lavelle, Dobson, Clare, even Lee and Leko at times, were/are decent signings at this level.

    Arter, Souare, Kirk, for different reasons, weren't.

    So the squad had some quality as it showed when JJ took over but it also relies on Stockley far too much and their confidence is fragile.  Innis and Lavelle have been big misses too.

    Players like DJ can be brilliant or invisible but thats why he's in league 1.

    Bottom line for me is that this squad has underperformed.

    It should  be top six.  The run from Sunderland away proved that.

    That it is not is partly poor management,  partly injuries, partly the players not doing enough, partly that the squad wasn't balanced, partly some players not being good enough.   What % you want to put on each is something to argue about until the cows come home or we sign another player.


    LLL&BH



    I wasn’t aware they were so heavily reliant on data and analytics.  The company I work for sells a technology to help with people analytics and workforce planning.  It can be very powerful, but I often speak with prospects and one of the key things to point out is that the data needs to inform your decision, it won’t make the decision for you, like some sort of silver bullet.  

    I don’t know if from what you say they thought that they could be largely reliant on it as if it were making the decision for them.  If so, then they will be exposed because there is always a human element that must be factored in.  I recall numerous interviews with Curbs talking about making sure the players he bought in, got what we were about as a club.  Of course, that doesn’t mean that he always got it right, and football has changed a lot since he was in charge, but it is important to try and uncover the soft factors.

    Some good points in here HI and I know in myself I write a lot of my posts in anger and frustration at the moment, so don’t always take into account a lot of what you said.  

    However, I cannot agree this squad/team should be top 6.  True, the run post Sunderland showed they can compete, but the run since Plymouth away and the performances at Burton and Shrewsbury show they look very much a mid to lower table squad as well.  It’s completely fair for you to see it as underperforming, I completely respect that.  I see it as just not enough quality and not enough fight and think we are very much a 13th place outfit.  If we’re compromising, you could say top 6, I could say mid to lower table and we’re perhaps in the middle of that.

    Some very good points in this post though 👍🏻
    Two great posts, and I’m agreement with many of the points raised in both of them, coming down slightly on the side of Cabbles in his conclusion that we’re not, overall, a top six squad.
    Cabbles mentions Curbs ‘making sure the players he bought in, got what we were about as a club’, and I’d like to add Jimmy Seed’s mantra that he looked at the players’ character almost ahead of any other qualities. 
    I feel what we lack is players with desire, fight and a hatred of losing, and I think the purple patch that followed JJ’s temporary appointment as manager proves that. Suddenly they are given a reason to go the extra mile, something to really fight for, and they rose to the occasion, but when that extra motivation was taken away (once Jackson was made semi permanent) the players reverted to type, the extra fight ebbed away, and they became a bit too nice again. 
    And this is most noticeable when Inniss and Stockley aren’t playing, two players who perhaps ‘frighten’ the opposition to some extent, and you might even add Pearce to those names, as he’s also up for a fight, especially in the bigger matches, ironically, despite his limited technical qualities. Dobson also adds bite to the side with his work rate and tackling, although he’s more ‘serene’ than scary. 
    I’d be interested to know our average points scored when Inniss and Stockley are missing, compared to when they’re playing. 
    But both are correct that if you let software play at a major role in selecting which players to bring in, based on stats and technical qualities, there’s a real danger that you’re overlooking character, an essential ingredient. 
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,219
    The proof of the pudding is, to use the saying correctly, in the eating.

    So this isn't a top six squad because we're 14th but I gave what I feel are the reasons for that.

    I still think this set of players have underperformed.
  • Athletico Charlton
    Athletico Charlton Posts: 14,273
    That's good news, always positive when some of the younger ones get a loan move and start to get used to men's footy.  He has many of the natural attributes and has a chance but didn't think he was quite at Elerwre levels in the, albeit limited, number of games I saw him play.  Good luck Nazir.
  • Tonbridgeaddick
    Tonbridgeaddick Posts: 32
    Weren't we after him in the summer? Bolton are offering £150 k... we sould be all over this as well as he would walk into our midfield
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  • Major
    Major Posts: 1,026
    Henry Irving said:
    The proof of the pudding is, to use the saying correctly, in the eating.

    So this isn't a top six squad because we're 14th but I gave what I feel are the reasons for that.

    I still think this set of players have underperformed.
    I think you are right, Henry. Underperformed, as in not playing up to their true potential.  As you suggested in your previous post, there can be all sorts of contributing factors.

    Others make claims of players not caring, not trying, stealing a living, etc. etc. but I can't bring myself to go along with all that.

    In fact, I have to assume that those making such accusations have never played the game. 

    You get picked, you get the shirt, the ref blows the whistle and you do the best you can on the day. 


  • cabbles
    cabbles Posts: 15,254
    JamesSeed said:
    cabbles said:
    Henry Irving said:
    My gut feeling was that over the summer analytics took precedence over traditional scouting and squad building.

    There is a place for both but a computer algorithm isn't the same as knowing if a player will be happy in London or if he'll play well in a different formation with different players and, as it turned out, under a different manager.

    It doesn't help, IMHO, if one of the analysts is in Australia and the neither of the then manager or Head of Recruitment have the final say.

    Add the budget not being as big as those of Ipswich and Wigan and not realising that many of the league 1 and 2 players we were targeting would go to the championship because if we thought they were good so would others with deeper pockets and you can get a feel for what was, IMHO, going on over the summer.

    But we still made some strong signings IMHO

    Stockley, Famewo, Macca, Lavelle, Dobson, Clare, even Lee and Leko at times, were/are decent signings at this level.

    Arter, Souare, Kirk, for different reasons, weren't.

    So the squad had some quality as it showed when JJ took over but it also relies on Stockley far too much and their confidence is fragile.  Innis and Lavelle have been big misses too.

    Players like DJ can be brilliant or invisible but thats why he's in league 1.

    Bottom line for me is that this squad has underperformed.

    It should  be top six.  The run from Sunderland away proved that.

    That it is not is partly poor management,  partly injuries, partly the players not doing enough, partly that the squad wasn't balanced, partly some players not being good enough.   What % you want to put on each is something to argue about until the cows come home or we sign another player.


    LLL&BH



    I wasn’t aware they were so heavily reliant on data and analytics.  The company I work for sells a technology to help with people analytics and workforce planning.  It can be very powerful, but I often speak with prospects and one of the key things to point out is that the data needs to inform your decision, it won’t make the decision for you, like some sort of silver bullet.  

    I don’t know if from what you say they thought that they could be largely reliant on it as if it were making the decision for them.  If so, then they will be exposed because there is always a human element that must be factored in.  I recall numerous interviews with Curbs talking about making sure the players he bought in, got what we were about as a club.  Of course, that doesn’t mean that he always got it right, and football has changed a lot since he was in charge, but it is important to try and uncover the soft factors.

    Some good points in here HI and I know in myself I write a lot of my posts in anger and frustration at the moment, so don’t always take into account a lot of what you said.  

    However, I cannot agree this squad/team should be top 6.  True, the run post Sunderland showed they can compete, but the run since Plymouth away and the performances at Burton and Shrewsbury show they look very much a mid to lower table squad as well.  It’s completely fair for you to see it as underperforming, I completely respect that.  I see it as just not enough quality and not enough fight and think we are very much a 13th place outfit.  If we’re compromising, you could say top 6, I could say mid to lower table and we’re perhaps in the middle of that.

    Some very good points in this post though 👍🏻
    Two great posts, and I’m agreement with many of the points raised in both of them, coming down slightly on the side of Cabbles in his conclusion that we’re not, overall, a top six squad.
    Cabbles mentions Curbs ‘making sure the players he bought in, got what we were about as a club’, and I’d like to add Jimmy Seed’s mantra that he looked at the players’ character almost ahead of any other qualities. 
    I feel what we lack is players with desire, fight and a hatred of losing, and I think the purple patch that followed JJ’s temporary appointment as manager proves that. Suddenly they are given a reason to go the extra mile, something to really fight for, and they rose to the occasion, but when that extra motivation was taken away (once Jackson was made semi permanent) the players reverted to type, the extra fight ebbed away, and they became a bit too nice again. 
    And this is most noticeable when Inniss and Stockley aren’t playing, two players who perhaps ‘frighten’ the opposition to some extent, and you might even add Pearce to those names, as he’s also up for a fight, especially in the bigger matches, ironically, despite his limited technical qualities. Dobson also adds bite to the side with his work rate and tackling, although he’s more ‘serene’ than scary. 
    I’d be interested to know our average points scored when Inniss and Stockley are missing, compared to when they’re playing. 
    But both are correct that if you let software play at a major role in selecting which players to bring in, based on stats and technical qualities, there’s a real danger that you’re overlooking character, an essential ingredient. 
    I think what HI did was provide good perspective.  As mentioned, for whatever reason, I don’t have much love for this squad at the moment, so a defeat or a bad performance I have jumped on and been quite critical.  However as HI pointed out there are contributing factors.  

    It’s interesting to know they were pursuing the data & analytics angle.  I guess a lot of clubs now do this, but as you point out with when Jimmy Seed was manager, so much of it is about getting other things right in terms of character.

    Kirk is a good example.  I don’t think from how he’s conducted himself since he’s been here that you could question his character.  What I think has been exposed is that he hasn’t been able to settle and I am sure his Dad’s passing contributed to that.  Perhaps it was just never going to work.  On the flip side, and this one has surprised me a bit, but you may ask what’s going on with Leko?  Again, another young lad, one we all had good memories of when he was last here, struck up a good relationship with Tracy Leaburn.  I thought he would be a great signing.  I know he’s had an injury, but he’s been massively underwhelming this time round.  I’m not calling into question his character, just pointing out that for whatever reason, it looks like this has been a poor signing this time round so far.

    Don’t want to derail the thread too much, but really hope something can be some this summer.  At the moment, any new player we sign I can’t get excited about based on how the most recent ones haven’t really kicked on
  • BR7_addick
    BR7_addick Posts: 10,210
    Henry Irving said:
    The proof of the pudding is, to use the saying correctly, in the eating.

    So this isn't a top six squad because we're 14th but I gave what I feel are the reasons for that.

    I still think this set of players have underperformed.
    Agreed.  I very much made the mistake of thinking our issues this season were black and white, I thought once Adkins went this “top 6 squad” as I described it, would go onto recover this season.  It’s a mixture of poor strategic decisions, poor management and underachieving players.  

    TS, you’d assume is dynamic and adaptable  enough as a businessman to learn and adjust from this going forward.  
  • Wheresmeticket
    Wheresmeticket Posts: 17,304
    Gribbo said:
    Leuth said:
    thetomahawkkid said:
    Leuth said:
    ricky_otto said:
    Callumcafc said:
    Perhaps we could really tempt them with a straight swap for Pratley. 
    I'd start supporting Welling
    I would take Pratley over Watson any day!
    I would take a punch in the face over a broken leg too
    Hold my beer 

    😉
    Snorted out my coffee at work
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    If I’m honest I don’t think our squad have particularly underperformed. I think most football fans have an opinion of their players that rate them higher than the actual reality. I think where we are in the league and from our performances, we are pretty much bang on where we deserve to be. I don’t think underperforming comes into it.
  • Codfishjunior
    Codfishjunior Posts: 367
    The midfield duo of Pratley and Watson was a dark time 
  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 36,002
    golfaddick said:
    Tonbridgeaddick said:
    Weren't we after him in the summer? Bolton are offering £150 k... we sould be all over this as well as he would walk into our midfield
    Best player by far when we played them at their place earlier in the season. He turned the game for them in the 2nd half.

    Not paying £150k for him is a dereliction of duty imo. 
    Have to agree, solid player, cheap, would improve the squad, wages won't be stupid. Can't for the life of me figure out why we wouldn't be interested.
  • Chunes
    Chunes Posts: 17,347
    edited January 2022
    golfaddick said:
    Tonbridgeaddick said:
    Weren't we after him in the summer? Bolton are offering £150 k... we sould be all over this as well as he would walk into our midfield
    Best player by far when we played them at their place earlier in the season. He turned the game for them in the 2nd half.

    Not paying £150k for him is a dereliction of duty imo. 
    Don't understand, who didn't pay 150k for him? Or do you mean he's available for 150?
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  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 36,002
    Henry Irving said:

    Excellent club comms that, announcing the signing of a player AFTER he's played in a game for them!
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    Major said:
    Henry Irving said:
    The proof of the pudding is, to use the saying correctly, in the eating.

    So this isn't a top six squad because we're 14th but I gave what I feel are the reasons for that.

    I still think this set of players have underperformed.
    I think you are right, Henry. Underperformed, as in not playing up to their true potential.  As you suggested in your previous post, there can be all sorts of contributing factors.

    Others make claims of players not caring, not trying, stealing a living, etc. etc. but I can't bring myself to go along with all that.

    In fact, I have to assume that those making such accusations have never played the game. 

    You get picked, you get the shirt, the ref blows the whistle and you do the best you can on the day. 


    I would love to believe that. 

    There are 3 or 4 players in our squad that aren't good enough or clearly don't fit in.  I can, as frustrating as it is, almost accept that.  Both our last 2 promotion squads did as well. 

    I can accept that even our better players have limitations, they are league 1 players for a reason. 

    The ones that really boil my piss are the ones that aren't over the hill, aren't injury prone and have proved in the past they are better than some of the absolute dross we have seen in the last 18 months.  Most of the main culprits played against Hartlepool and Sunderland and Ipswich and at the end of last season.

    That's got to be more than ability that's got to be some sort of effort or commitment issue? 
  • Elthamaddick
    Elthamaddick Posts: 15,810
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    golfaddick said:
    Tonbridgeaddick said:
    Weren't we after him in the summer? Bolton are offering £150 k... we sould be all over this as well as he would walk into our midfield
    Best player by far when we played them at their place earlier in the season. He turned the game for them in the 2nd half.

    Not paying £150k for him is a dereliction of duty imo. 
    Have to agree, solid player, cheap, would improve the squad, wages won't be stupid. Can't for the life of me figure out why we wouldn't be interested.
    would seem like a no brainer
  • mendonca
    mendonca Posts: 9,405
    Sad thing about Kirk going out is that it is neither going to weaken or strengthen us.
  • Gravesend_Addick
    Gravesend_Addick Posts: 7,299
    Re jacko's contract.:

    I was under the impression jackson's contract was a guaranteed 18 months & then reviewed every season after that.

    Have I got that wrong?
  • Redrobo
    Redrobo Posts: 11,330
    Many are criticising our recent recruitment, but I think we should put it into the context of having to bring in so many players and more significantly, within a budget. 
    In an ideal world you would be buying just one player a year to upgrade your weakest position and maybe a youth player for the future.

    We are nowhere near that but we are at least moving forward towards having a squad of players that are actually ours, but like all areas of our club, it had been ripped apart and cut to the bone. I hope we can be competitive enough next season to get near the playoffs, but there is still a fair bit to be done to achieve that IMO. The brightest light looking ahead is our youth players. As they move into the squad it should give us the depth we will need to sustain the team through injury and suspensions.

    We do need to have a star striker who can score 20 goals next season if we really are going to compete IMO, if not, top six will be a stretching target.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    Gravesend_Addick said:
    Re jacko's contract.:

    I was under the impression jackson's contract was a guaranteed 18 months & then reviewed every season after that.

    Have I got that wrong?
    That's the impression I was under. 
  • Pelling1993
    Pelling1993 Posts: 6,672
    Gravesend_Addick said:
    Re jacko's contract.:

    I was under the impression jackson's contract was a guaranteed 18 months & then reviewed every season after that.

    Have I got that wrong?
    Jackson's deal will renew automatically at the end of each of the next two seasons based on on-field success.
  • FishCostaFortune
    FishCostaFortune Posts: 10,773
    edited January 2022
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Major said:
    Henry Irving said:
    The proof of the pudding is, to use the saying correctly, in the eating.

    So this isn't a top six squad because we're 14th but I gave what I feel are the reasons for that.

    I still think this set of players have underperformed.
    I think you are right, Henry. Underperformed, as in not playing up to their true potential.  As you suggested in your previous post, there can be all sorts of contributing factors.

    Others make claims of players not caring, not trying, stealing a living, etc. etc. but I can't bring myself to go along with all that.

    In fact, I have to assume that those making such accusations have never played the game. 

    You get picked, you get the shirt, the ref blows the whistle and you do the best you can on the day. 


    I would love to believe that. 

    There are 3 or 4 players in our squad that aren't good enough or clearly don't fit in.  I can, as frustrating as it is, almost accept that.  Both our last 2 promotion squads did as well. 

    I can accept that even our better players have limitations, they are league 1 players for a reason. 

    The ones that really boil my piss are the ones that aren't over the hill, aren't injury prone and have proved in the past they are better than some of the absolute dross we have seen in the last 18 months.  Most of the main culprits played against Hartlepool and Sunderland and Ipswich and at the end of last season.

    That's got to be more than ability that's got to be some sort of effort or commitment issue? 
    I am always interested in this line of thinking, because as I have mentioned previously you speak to any section of football fans of any under performing team and this is more often than not the line that is thrown out.

    Now I am not naive to think there are not certain players that do coast, or don’t put the yards on the pitch in, but with the data analytics performed each match they do tend to get found out eventually. And if the fans were to be believed there would be a plague of footballers who never cared, were stealing a living, and Charlton appeared to sign many of them.

    Be interested in your thoughts on who you think is not giving the required effort and commitment, and what are they doing to not to give it. Any specific examples etc, as I’m not really seeing it. I’m seeing an underperforming team playing one dimensional football, which is sometimes effective and sometimes not, but I just don’t see that reason being because the players are not trying.

    Not matching the intensity of Jackson’s caretaker stint is certainly something to point towards, but I honestly believe across any sport, nevermind one where you play once or twice a week like in football, that was never going to be sustainable. 

    Truth is I think Henry is closest to the issue, in as much as the issue is a bit of everything really. I think if TS wants to be the owner to take us forward, and JJ is the manager to do that, then we need a complete change of many of the processes both on and off the pitch. 

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