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Summer Transfer Rumours - Deadline Day p446

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  • SDAddick
    SDAddick Posts: 14,467
    Garrymanilow said:
    I don't think a new centre back is really going to help that much. It can't hurt, but I think getting a functional defensive system is far more important than the individual players, as long as they're up to a certain standard. Our friends Paddy McCarthy and Simon Francis are evidence of that; are they secretly great players who we ruined or are they players who slotted in to a system that worked and were able to play beyond themselves? Who had Chris Basham and Jack O'Connell down as top level Premier League centre backs before they briefly found their system as overlapping centre backs? Our biggest issue for years has been the gaps that open up between the lines and runners arriving late in our box completely unattended. Teams can drive through the middle or in that gap between the full back and centre back and get at us, and players drift into the box unmarked to get a free shot at goal. We haven't been coherent out of possession or in transition for years and what Holden really needs to work on is why that is and drill methods of dealing with it into the players. Getting in two quality wing backs who can read the defensive side of the game is part of it, and Dabo and Edun could be those players, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the longer term plan is to have both Dobson and Taylor sitting to provide that extra bit of cover. Then we can move as a unit and if everyone has cover and numbers around them defensively then suddenly the exposure to the opportunities to have an individual error immediately leading to a goal will reduce, That will take time and we haven't seen huge evidence of it yet, but Holden needs to get it right because it will be what defines his time with us, whether he can stop the constant shipping of goals the moment something goes wrong with the ball
    This. 1000% this. We have four senior CBs who have shown they can perform in this league, and in two cases, the league above. We have two talented young CBs as cover. We aren't shipping goals or ceding possession because one of our CBs isn't left footed. We're doing it because our CBs are getting isolated 1-v-1 with forwards far too often. And that isn't a failure of the CBs (how they handle it sometimes is), it's a failure of team structure and setup.

    CBs is one of the areas (along with midfield) where I think just about every other team in the division is envious of us. It's very good for League One.
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,320
    SDAddick said:
    Garrymanilow said:
    I don't think a new centre back is really going to help that much. It can't hurt, but I think getting a functional defensive system is far more important than the individual players, as long as they're up to a certain standard. Our friends Paddy McCarthy and Simon Francis are evidence of that; are they secretly great players who we ruined or are they players who slotted in to a system that worked and were able to play beyond themselves? Who had Chris Basham and Jack O'Connell down as top level Premier League centre backs before they briefly found their system as overlapping centre backs? Our biggest issue for years has been the gaps that open up between the lines and runners arriving late in our box completely unattended. Teams can drive through the middle or in that gap between the full back and centre back and get at us, and players drift into the box unmarked to get a free shot at goal. We haven't been coherent out of possession or in transition for years and what Holden really needs to work on is why that is and drill methods of dealing with it into the players. Getting in two quality wing backs who can read the defensive side of the game is part of it, and Dabo and Edun could be those players, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the longer term plan is to have both Dobson and Taylor sitting to provide that extra bit of cover. Then we can move as a unit and if everyone has cover and numbers around them defensively then suddenly the exposure to the opportunities to have an individual error immediately leading to a goal will reduce, That will take time and we haven't seen huge evidence of it yet, but Holden needs to get it right because it will be what defines his time with us, whether he can stop the constant shipping of goals the moment something goes wrong with the ball
    This. 1000% this. We have four senior CBs who have shown they can perform in this league, and in two cases, the league above. We have two talented young CBs as cover. We aren't shipping goals or ceding possession because one of our CBs isn't left footed. We're doing it because our CBs are getting isolated 1-v-1 with forwards far too often. And that isn't a failure of the CBs (how they handle it sometimes is), it's a failure of team structure and setup.

    CBs is one of the areas (along with midfield) where I think just about every other team in the division is envious of us. It's very good for League One.
    Didn't you hear though, we have the worst centre backs in League One 
  • sam3110
    sam3110 Posts: 21,275
    I'd say central midfield, on paper (I know I know) is where we stand up to every other team in the league. Dobson, Taylor, Camara, Fraser is a quartet any team would love to have, and to top it off we have the emergence of Anderson. 
  • Scoham
    Scoham Posts: 37,382
    Looks like JCH could move before the window closes.


  • soapy_jones
    soapy_jones Posts: 21,355
    Scoham said:
    Looks like JCH could move before the window closes.


    Too many tatts...   You know what happened last time?
  • sam3110
    sam3110 Posts: 21,275
    All lower end champs teams I reckon
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    Scoham said:
    Looks like JCH could move before the window closes.


    As I have said we need to sign the player they will sign when they sell him, before they do.
  • cabbles
    cabbles Posts: 15,256
    MarcusH26 said:
    So as it stands they have Scott Hogan, Jay Stansfield, Tyler Roberts , Lukas Jutkewicz and Sam Cosgrove on their books as out and out strikers. Does make me wonder if it will be Cosgrove if there's a signing tomorrow. 
    Jutkewicz, it feels like he’s been there since the dawn of time 
  • thenewbie
    thenewbie Posts: 11,001
    Leuth said:
    SDAddick said:
    Garrymanilow said:
    I don't think a new centre back is really going to help that much. It can't hurt, but I think getting a functional defensive system is far more important than the individual players, as long as they're up to a certain standard. Our friends Paddy McCarthy and Simon Francis are evidence of that; are they secretly great players who we ruined or are they players who slotted in to a system that worked and were able to play beyond themselves? Who had Chris Basham and Jack O'Connell down as top level Premier League centre backs before they briefly found their system as overlapping centre backs? Our biggest issue for years has been the gaps that open up between the lines and runners arriving late in our box completely unattended. Teams can drive through the middle or in that gap between the full back and centre back and get at us, and players drift into the box unmarked to get a free shot at goal. We haven't been coherent out of possession or in transition for years and what Holden really needs to work on is why that is and drill methods of dealing with it into the players. Getting in two quality wing backs who can read the defensive side of the game is part of it, and Dabo and Edun could be those players, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the longer term plan is to have both Dobson and Taylor sitting to provide that extra bit of cover. Then we can move as a unit and if everyone has cover and numbers around them defensively then suddenly the exposure to the opportunities to have an individual error immediately leading to a goal will reduce, That will take time and we haven't seen huge evidence of it yet, but Holden needs to get it right because it will be what defines his time with us, whether he can stop the constant shipping of goals the moment something goes wrong with the ball
    This. 1000% this. We have four senior CBs who have shown they can perform in this league, and in two cases, the league above. We have two talented young CBs as cover. We aren't shipping goals or ceding possession because one of our CBs isn't left footed. We're doing it because our CBs are getting isolated 1-v-1 with forwards far too often. And that isn't a failure of the CBs (how they handle it sometimes is), it's a failure of team structure and setup.

    CBs is one of the areas (along with midfield) where I think just about every other team in the division is envious of us. It's very good for League One.
    Didn't you hear though, we have the worst centre backs in League One 
    I'm fairly sure that no-one has actually said that. Have people been critical of the CBs, yes. And frankly, it's somewhat justifiable given that based on previous records they are absolutely capable of playing much better than they currently are.

    They are very far indeed from being the worst in the league. Though currently they may well be the most disappointing.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    sam3110 said:
    I'd say central midfield, on paper (I know I know) is where we stand up to every other team in the league. Dobson, Taylor, Camara, Fraser is a quartet any team would love to have, and to top it off we have the emergence of Anderson. 
    I really glad you posted this when you did because I have been iching to say something all day.

    This isn't a dig at you and in someway is a bit of devil's advocate and a little mischief making (which I will hold my hands up as of taking to far in the past).

    When a player leaves us and signs for a league 2 team, people, ignore any league 1 interested,  and shout "hE hAs FoUnD hIs LeVeL LOL" yet when we sign Dobson (his ex team got promoted 12 months after they binned him), Fraser (his ex team got promoted the season after they binned him), Camara (his old team got promoted the season after he left and he never really played for his new team).  Have they found their level to?

    I know you can't, absolutely, judge how good a player is by where their team finish in the league, or really what league they play in but...

    McGrandles and MacGillvray have both been 1st team regulars for more successful teams than Dobson and Fraser ever have.

    Someone said Dobson was premiership quality the other day..

    It's the absolutes I am getting tiered with.  Everyone is either "the best in the league" or "dog shit".  They aren't.

    Inniss and Famewo were "undoubtedly" the best center backs in the league.

    Dobson, Gilbey and Lee were definitely the best midfield in the league.

    Now Leaburn and May are the best front two AND we have the best midfield?

    I bet, without looking it up, if you worked out where everyone of our players had finished, out of 92, in any season they started more than 15-20 games it would be about 55thish, or lower.  Hector would bring it up a place or two.  

    Found their level, haven't they?

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  • Melrose
    Melrose Posts: 836
    Would rather JCH At 500K, than Cosgrove. But who knows, transfer dealings always a risk. Rather Jukiewitcz myself
  • Melrose
    Melrose Posts: 836
    Maybe JCH At 500K is wishful thinking 🤔 
  • NabySarr
    NabySarr Posts: 4,290
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Scoham said:
    Looks like JCH could move before the window closes.


    As I have said we need to sign the player they will sign when they sell him, before they do.
    Unfortunately they are so good that they’ve  already signed him. Tshimanga will step up if JCH leaves and probably score loads of goals
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    NabySarr said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Scoham said:
    Looks like JCH could move before the window closes.


    As I have said we need to sign the player they will sign when they sell him, before they do.
    Unfortunately they are so good that they’ve  already signed him. Tshimanga will step up if JCH leaves and probably score loads of goals
    I don't think Tshimanga is "him" let's see.
  • Croydon
    Croydon Posts: 12,728
    Everyone in the league envious of our defence and a midfield any team would love to have 😂😂😂😂

    This fanbase ffs. Heard it all now 
  • charltonbob
    charltonbob Posts: 8,263
    balham red said:
    No I'm sorry, Holden is not ready to be made scapegoat for the lacking transfer window. Everyone could see we were shafted since Leaburn got injured. This was supposed to be an exciting new era.
    Well, according to those being fed information. 
  • Braziliance
    Braziliance Posts: 8,359
    edited August 2023
    Leuth said:
    SDAddick said:
    Garrymanilow said:
    I don't think a new centre back is really going to help that much. It can't hurt, but I think getting a functional defensive system is far more important than the individual players, as long as they're up to a certain standard. Our friends Paddy McCarthy and Simon Francis are evidence of that; are they secretly great players who we ruined or are they players who slotted in to a system that worked and were able to play beyond themselves? Who had Chris Basham and Jack O'Connell down as top level Premier League centre backs before they briefly found their system as overlapping centre backs? Our biggest issue for years has been the gaps that open up between the lines and runners arriving late in our box completely unattended. Teams can drive through the middle or in that gap between the full back and centre back and get at us, and players drift into the box unmarked to get a free shot at goal. We haven't been coherent out of possession or in transition for years and what Holden really needs to work on is why that is and drill methods of dealing with it into the players. Getting in two quality wing backs who can read the defensive side of the game is part of it, and Dabo and Edun could be those players, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the longer term plan is to have both Dobson and Taylor sitting to provide that extra bit of cover. Then we can move as a unit and if everyone has cover and numbers around them defensively then suddenly the exposure to the opportunities to have an individual error immediately leading to a goal will reduce, That will take time and we haven't seen huge evidence of it yet, but Holden needs to get it right because it will be what defines his time with us, whether he can stop the constant shipping of goals the moment something goes wrong with the ball
    This. 1000% this. We have four senior CBs who have shown they can perform in this league, and in two cases, the league above. We have two talented young CBs as cover. We aren't shipping goals or ceding possession because one of our CBs isn't left footed. We're doing it because our CBs are getting isolated 1-v-1 with forwards far too often. And that isn't a failure of the CBs (how they handle it sometimes is), it's a failure of team structure and setup.

    CBs is one of the areas (along with midfield) where I think just about every other team in the division is envious of us. It's very good for League One.
    Didn't you hear though, we have the worst centre backs in League One 
    Actually I said 'we may have the worst centre backs in the league?' I didn't say it with outright confidence. I then backed up my thoughts with how we have done defensively so far and the fact that we don't have a single centre back who is a top 10 centre back in the league, it may even stretch as far as 15/20. It's been that way for every season since Bauer left. Only decent defender we have had since then is Lockyer and look how he's done. 

    SDAddick said:
    Garrymanilow said:
    I don't think a new centre back is really going to help that much. It can't hurt, but I think getting a functional defensive system is far more important than the individual players, as long as they're up to a certain standard. Our friends Paddy McCarthy and Simon Francis are evidence of that; are they secretly great players who we ruined or are they players who slotted in to a system that worked and were able to play beyond themselves? Who had Chris Basham and Jack O'Connell down as top level Premier League centre backs before they briefly found their system as overlapping centre backs? Our biggest issue for years has been the gaps that open up between the lines and runners arriving late in our box completely unattended. Teams can drive through the middle or in that gap between the full back and centre back and get at us, and players drift into the box unmarked to get a free shot at goal. We haven't been coherent out of possession or in transition for years and what Holden really needs to work on is why that is and drill methods of dealing with it into the players. Getting in two quality wing backs who can read the defensive side of the game is part of it, and Dabo and Edun could be those players, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the longer term plan is to have both Dobson and Taylor sitting to provide that extra bit of cover. Then we can move as a unit and if everyone has cover and numbers around them defensively then suddenly the exposure to the opportunities to have an individual error immediately leading to a goal will reduce, That will take time and we haven't seen huge evidence of it yet, but Holden needs to get it right because it will be what defines his time with us, whether he can stop the constant shipping of goals the moment something goes wrong with the ball
    This. 1000% this. We have four senior CBs who have shown they can perform in this league, and in two cases, the league above. We have two talented young CBs as cover. We aren't shipping goals or ceding possession because one of our CBs isn't left footed. We're doing it because our CBs are getting isolated 1-v-1 with forwards far too often. And that isn't a failure of the CBs (how they handle it sometimes is), it's a failure of team structure and setup.

    CBs is one of the areas (along with midfield) where I think just about every other team in the division is envious of us. It's very good for League One.
    I don't reckon any club is envious of us. Midfielder wise the projected bottom half sides maybe but definitely not the defense. 

    Pompey, Bolton, Wigan, Oxford, Derby, Peterborough and a few others probably wouldn't swap any of our backline or midfield for theirs, defense certainly. I mention those teams cause if you want to get anywhere you need to be placing above them.

    I agree at full strength and if everyone is fit our midfield is on paper play off contenders worthy, the defense is bottom half/mid table imo.

    Really hope we are one of the ones in for JCH but I imagine it will clubs like Coventry, Swansea, Huddersfield etc. 

    With Reams saying a striker in the building tomorrow and Birmingham getting a new striker in, it's all pointing towards Cosgrove on loan. 
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    fenaddick said:
    Oxford apparently bidding 500k for Jack Marriott, L1 strikers getting very expensive! 
    Leaburn & Kanu potentially big earners for Charlton. 

  • Chunes
    Chunes Posts: 17,349
    edited August 2023
    Blackpool are yet to concede a goal this season. Envious of our backline? Their record speaks for itself; ours does too.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    Chunes said:
    Blackpool are yet to concede a goal this season. Envious of our backline? Their record speaks for itself; ours does too.
    Because they have got "found his level" Abie Morgan?
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  • charltonbob
    charltonbob Posts: 8,263
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Scoham said:
    Looks like JCH could move before the window closes.


    As I have said we need to sign the player they will sign when they sell him, before they do.
    I think they may already have done so a few weeks back, sure I read somewhere that they had signed a young striker who's expected to play a part this season & I doubt McAnthony would sell without having a replacement.
  • Athletico Charlton
    Athletico Charlton Posts: 14,279
    charltonbob said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Scoham said:
    Looks like JCH could move before the window closes.


    As I have said we need to sign the player they will sign when they sell him, before they do.
    I think they may already have done so a few weeks back, sure I read somewhere that they had signed a young striker who's expected to play a part this season & I doubt McAnthony would sell without having a replacement.

    Reckon they will go for Sonny Perkins on loan.
  • DubaiCAFC
    DubaiCAFC Posts: 2,461
    MarcusH26 said:
    Birmingham have signed Jay Stansfield on loan this evening from Fulham. Cosgrove to us tomorrow?

    Ah shame!
  • DubaiCAFC
    DubaiCAFC Posts: 2,461
    If this striker is Cosgrove, would be a bit disappointed. Cosgrove is like Stockley on a bad day! 
  • wmcf123
    wmcf123 Posts: 5,826
    sam3110 said:
    I'd say central midfield, on paper (I know I know) is where we stand up to every other team in the league. Dobson, Taylor, Camara, Fraser is a quartet any team would love to have, and to top it off we have the emergence of Anderson. 
    On paper maybe but three of them aren’t fully fit . Fraser I believe is good against weaker sides and goes missing against anyone competitive , Taylor seemingly is one of the modern players who takes an age to get fit .  Camara is evidently quality but can’t play every game . At this stage , I can’t commit to whether this midfield takes you up.  Dobson is the only banker .
  • Scoham
    Scoham Posts: 37,382
    DubaiCAFC said:
    If this striker is Cosgrove, would be a bit disappointed. Cosgrove is like Stockley on a bad day! 

  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,907
    Maybe we just need a physical workhorse up there to compliment everybody else, particularly May - ideally we’d sign a Kermorgant but sometimes a Steve Jones will do the job 
  • Lewis Coaches
    Lewis Coaches Posts: 5,409
    Covered_End_Lad said:
    sam3110 said:
    fenaddick said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DubaiCAFC said:
    DubaiCAFC said:
    NabySarr said:
    DubaiCAFC said:
    NabySarr said:
    DubaiCAFC said:
    Never pleasing people… we sign a someone who is decent, highly rated. 
    Played in the premier league, had a decent loan at the end of the season in League One, but it isn’t enough..

    Holden has already proven this year we are not going to stick to the same formation, it is a signing that gives us options, from the start or from the bench to change the game.

    I expect 1 free in (Dabo) 2 or 3 loans and maybe one more fee being paid if the right deal can be agreed.

    For me, our biggest issue is, we don’t really have an identity of the style of play, and that falls on the manager! 

    Let’s see where we are at the end of October, before we start to turn!
    Not sure it does. He’s not been given the tools yet so it’s hard to show an identity/style of play when you haven’t got the players you want yet. I think he’s got a clear idea of how he wants us to play but we can only see small bits of it at the moment because we don’t have enough players 
    Can you tell me how he wants to play? From what I have seen, it is to lump it then try and win the 2nd ball?? If that’s the case, then we have been recruiting the wrong players 
    That’s a very simplistic way of looking at it, and a team playing that way probably wouldn’t have had more of the ball in every game we’ve played so far. Pressing and winning the ball high up is definitely a huge part of it, and players we’ve recruited like Camara and May fit that perfectly. We’ve been the best team in the league so far at winning the ball and creating chances from pressing and winning the ball high up. A striker might have helped us convert more of these chances 

    We have seen a lot more longer passes over the top to May, which is another strength of his. When we have Leaburn we might see more direct passes going into him too, which will help free up May as defenders will be attracted to Leaburn’s presence. May has had to lead the line and stay central, but if you look at a lot of his Cheltenham goals he is running the channels, picking the ball up in pockets of space, cutting inside and shooting. A new striker can be that central focal point and allow May to find the spaces either side of him. 

    But that’s not the only way we’ve attacked, in fact Holden seems to prefer quite a varied/practical approach rather than sticking with one way of building attacks like a Ben Garner would for example. We’re high in the league numbers for slower build up attacks (would probably be higher if we hadnt lost Fraser) and also longer passes. Holden wants attacking football which we are seeing but it’s difficult when we don’t have the striker we can all see we need. 

    Losing Fraser’s ball-playing abilities and Leaburn’s presence up top have definitely not helped and probably made it look more like we are just looking for long balls for May to chase and trying to win the ball high up the pitch, along with trying to isolate CBT into a 1v1 situation. But isn’t that Holden just trying to get the best out of what he has been left with? 

    It is interesting to see the voices of the new regime start trying to shift the blame towards Holden when to the rest of us it’s obvious he hasn’t been given the tools yet 
    Not totally shifting blame on Holden, but we have still had enough quality on the pitch to have got better results that’s for sure. What’s the saying, bad workman blame the tools.

    And no blame from the ownership, Holden is their man. 

    I don’t think tactically we have been right last few games, and to many errors! 
    For clarity I am not saying for 1 minute get rid of Holden, but can’t put all the blame on recruitment and the ownership, he has to take some responsibility. As we have had enough on the pitch to get results 
    He has and we have shown enough. The reason we aren’t on at least 7 points is individual errors. Which I think in this short term, you can’t really put on him. Hector’s mistake in that last game was so poor for someone of his experience.
    I think individual errors are a mindset thing though and that is on Holden, especially given that’s something he talks about a lot. The Asiimwe one I can forgive because he must have mentally and physically exhausted by that point but there aren’t really any excuses for the others 
    A player mis-controlling the ball CANNOT be blamed on the manager, that's absolutely ridiculous! May as well start blaming the manager for the weather or if the train to the game is delayed ffs
    I also agree with this, I would be far more worried if we were struggling to create chances and playing poorly. Overall we are playing far better this season than last season and creating a lot more. We have been downed but some individual errors that can't be blamed on the manager. Law of averages should mean we are fine. We should not have lost to Peterborough or Port Vale and arguably should have won both games on chances created. The Bristol Rovers game actually was probably the worst we have played but only lost to a 98th goal when we were trying to win the game.

    All is not lost yet, couple of wins in our next 3 games and it all looks a lot rosier.
    That couple of wins has to come from
    Fleetwood at home plus one of Oxford or Wigan away?

    or do you include Crawley in the cup.
    You will get some long odds with Oxford and Wigan. Best of luck with that.
  • SouthLincsAddick
    SouthLincsAddick Posts: 569
    edited August 2023
    I can’t see JCH going to another L1 club unless they’re offering silly wages. Why would JCH sign another L1 contract with roughly the same L1 wages he’s on now when he can play out this season and move to a Championship club next year on a free and treble his income. MacAnthony gives all this transfer bluster but JCH is holding the cards. He’ll go to a Championship club either this year or next.
  • NabySarr
    NabySarr Posts: 4,290
    I think Cosgrove would do a job, which could be all we need as we do have Leaburn and May which if they stay fit is easily enough goals if Cosgrove can contribute like he did for Plymouth.

    If it is a striker from Birmingham I would much rather it be Jutkiewicz. Even at 34 he’d do well at this level and help us in both boxes 

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