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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

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Comments

  • I certainly admire your optimism Callum but sadly I don’t think many share it . 
    Why is it optimistic to think a manager who’s been successful before can do it again?
  • Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

    https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

    “Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



    Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

    Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
    The deep press appears to have been ditched.
  • Why is it optimistic to think a manager who’s been successful before can do it again?
    He’s been successful once and abysmal twice, this is his fourth attempt and it’s going down the abysmal route so his success rate will be 25%
  • He’s been successful once and abysmal twice, this is his fourth attempt and it’s going down the abysmal route so his success rate will be 25%
    He's been successful twice... No?

    Once when he got Luton into the Championship, then he went away, came back and kept them in the Championship
  • edited November 2024
    Why is it optimistic to think a manager who’s been successful before can do it again?
    Is being hopeful of a positive outcome not literally the definition of being optimistic?
  • I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

    People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

    There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


    And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
    I don’t think it is a weak argument because the style of play we are seeing is not one that gets promoted out of league 1. It works against the better sides that play out from the back and want to keep the ball, but picking up results against those sides isn’t enough to be promoted, especially when a lot of them are draws. We need to have more to our attack than high presses and long diagonal balls

    He needs to evolve our style of play, which is what I was hoping we’d see after grinding out the first few wins, players, patterns of play and combinations would become more familiar. But that hasn’t happened at all. There is very little evidence of any work that goes into our attacking play. We are better defensively than last season, but on the ball we’ve gone backwards 
  • He's been successful twice... No?

    Once when he got Luton into the Championship, then he went away, came back and kept them in the Championship
    Correct, I was referring to clubs, not spells he spent with them 

    Luton: Success 
    Stoke: Failure
    Southampton: Failure 
    Charlton: ?
  • Croydon said:
    Is being hopeful of a positive outcome not literally the definition of being optimistic?
    It’s not me hoping for anything though. 

    All I’m saying is it’s possible that he is successful if we give it more time while also acknowledging it might not happen, but we need more time to make that determination.

    I’d say there’s far stronger pessimism in the position that we’re past the point of no return already.
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  • edited November 2024
    It’s not me hoping for anything though. 

    All I’m saying is it’s possible that he is successful if we give it more time while also acknowledging it might not happen, but we need more time to make that determination.

    I’d say there’s far stronger pessimism in the position that we’re past the point of no return already.
    It's possible that things can improve yes. A d certainly I see the point that just blindly assuming that we're already doomed is a pessimistic position.

    But I think it's more realism to acknowledge that we have played in one specific way for several months to no great success. There is no reason to believe that success will just start happening unless there is some sort of a change. We haven't been conceding particularly "unlucky" goals. We haven't been creating lots of clear chances but struggled to put them away. We are playing a brand of football that puts an inordinate significance on the first goal scored (by either side) only to concede said goal more than we score it.

    So questioning what that change actually will be, or should be, is entirely valid as Jones does not show by word or action any apparent belief that a change is needed, but instead seems to hope that doing the same thing that hasn't worked will just somehow start working.
  • I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

    People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

    There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


    And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
    The right way is two centre forwards, a big one and a little one, everything else is wrong and deep down all you progressionist plonkers know I’m right…
  • Why is it optimistic to think a manager who’s been successful before can do it again?
    I thought you watched the games online?
  • I thought you watched the games online?
    Boring 
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  • There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

    Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

    So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

    Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.
    You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win
  • There is a real imperative to give a manager time, which I am fully behind.
    But I really don't know how much more of this half baked, frustrating, joyless shit I can stand


  • Luton fans want Edwards out, reckon they'd go for Jones part 3?
  • why don't we just swap managers
  • The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.

    All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.

    Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
  • edited November 2024
    Were we setup as the Underdog vs Burton with tin hats on? - The majority of the game we were camped in their half werent we, whilst we ended up with over 20-attempts on goal.

    I mean there are plenty of examples to use where that has been the case, so find that focusing on the last game the most strange. 
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