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Attendance comparison
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Now our 999 year lease has been confirmed the Berylsons plan to expand The Den. Talk is to 34k. I don’t think we’re ready for that size yet but we certainly need more than the 20k we currently have. We’ve sold out 15 times this season and have been regularly selling out for the last few seasons. And quite often it’ll be well in advance of the actual match so the demand is there.letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.I think 26k would be plenty but I suppose by going for 34k that covers for any sustained success the future may bring on the pitch.1 -
Whilst I agree with your post, at some point the Jimmy Seed Stand will need to be redeveloped not because it’s the only stand not recently developed but probably out of necessity.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
We didn't sell out, or even get close to selling out, a single league game this season.letthegoodtimesroll said:
If we wait until we are in the PL then the club probably won’t be able to afford it. This may be the last sweet spot to buy the ground and restart the development that was planned years ago. Easy for me to say because it’s not my money.Crispywood said:
Whilst we’re in the championship they’re never going to have a justifiable reason to spend 40M on the stadium financially it’s a massive ask, and would probably cost us championship relegation similar to what have happened to Oxford this year all money goes to stadium none to the squad.letthegoodtimesroll said:
In the world in which the club owners buy it. Until I read the @Raith_C_Chattonell post above I hadn’t realised that development creep had got so close to the ground. Now is probably a better time to sort out the ownership of the ground rather than wait until it’s worth considerably more.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
We don't even own our stadium, in what world do you think we are going to be expanding it?letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.
it wouldn’t be cheap expanding the capacity at Charlton but we are still at a low point in a rising curve. Averaging 20k this season, particularly when our home form took a dive, is pretty impressive. More importantly, we broke the playoff ‘Jinx/curse’ of being promoted at Wembley and getting relegated straight away. Next season could now see another big step forward. Ideally levelling up the roof of the East stand so it wraps around from the Upper North and filling that resulting void should be the next stage but I would guess developing the South stand would be a lot cheaper and the less disruptive option for us than expanding the capacity for those other 3 clubs if we do it before we really need it if the curve keeps rising.
We realistically need the prem income money to be able to afford it
if there is development creep getting close then the value of the Valley is only going to go one way, up. I suspect Roland, or his future successors would probably like to put his association with the club behind him, though I may well be wrong on that. Selling the ground back to the ‘club’ is what everyone thinks would be the obvious outcome but I doubt that’s now the only option, it is a performing asset that generates a return, now has a that development creep aspect to it and if the club did return to the PL it will more critical to own and develop it (which will only push the price up further. Buying and developing it now when there looks like an upward curve in the clubs fortunes ahead of us is probably the best time to do it.
Oxford basically neglected a 3 sided stadium for too long and left it too late, that’s why they went down this season. Playing catch up is both more expensive and too late
Our owners are not going to spend tens of millions buying the ground off Roland, and then spend even more to redevelop it, until there is an absolute necessity to do so.0 -
No, it's worth morevalleynick66 said:Promotion isn’t worth £150m though. We will still be loss making.
Yes, costs (mainly player fees and wages) will increase as well as income but promotion IS worth a lot.1 -
Agreed, and whilst i often hear away fans saying the Valley is a great away day, good old school ground etc, a lot of them do seem to moan about the facilities in that end. It's largely unchanged since we moved back so it probably does need redeveloping.MartinCAFC said:
Whilst I agree with your post, at some point the Jimmy Seed Stand will need to be redeveloped not because it’s the only stand not recently developed but probably out of necessity.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
We didn't sell out, or even get close to selling out, a single league game this season.letthegoodtimesroll said:
If we wait until we are in the PL then the club probably won’t be able to afford it. This may be the last sweet spot to buy the ground and restart the development that was planned years ago. Easy for me to say because it’s not my money.Crispywood said:
Whilst we’re in the championship they’re never going to have a justifiable reason to spend 40M on the stadium financially it’s a massive ask, and would probably cost us championship relegation similar to what have happened to Oxford this year all money goes to stadium none to the squad.letthegoodtimesroll said:
In the world in which the club owners buy it. Until I read the @Raith_C_Chattonell post above I hadn’t realised that development creep had got so close to the ground. Now is probably a better time to sort out the ownership of the ground rather than wait until it’s worth considerably more.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
We don't even own our stadium, in what world do you think we are going to be expanding it?letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.
it wouldn’t be cheap expanding the capacity at Charlton but we are still at a low point in a rising curve. Averaging 20k this season, particularly when our home form took a dive, is pretty impressive. More importantly, we broke the playoff ‘Jinx/curse’ of being promoted at Wembley and getting relegated straight away. Next season could now see another big step forward. Ideally levelling up the roof of the East stand so it wraps around from the Upper North and filling that resulting void should be the next stage but I would guess developing the South stand would be a lot cheaper and the less disruptive option for us than expanding the capacity for those other 3 clubs if we do it before we really need it if the curve keeps rising.
We realistically need the prem income money to be able to afford it
if there is development creep getting close then the value of the Valley is only going to go one way, up. I suspect Roland, or his future successors would probably like to put his association with the club behind him, though I may well be wrong on that. Selling the ground back to the ‘club’ is what everyone thinks would be the obvious outcome but I doubt that’s now the only option, it is a performing asset that generates a return, now has a that development creep aspect to it and if the club did return to the PL it will more critical to own and develop it (which will only push the price up further. Buying and developing it now when there looks like an upward curve in the clubs fortunes ahead of us is probably the best time to do it.
Oxford basically neglected a 3 sided stadium for too long and left it too late, that’s why they went down this season. Playing catch up is both more expensive and too late
Our owners are not going to spend tens of millions buying the ground off Roland, and then spend even more to redevelop it, until there is an absolute necessity to do so.0 -
Dont come on here and talk about success. Its annoying! Not to mention insensitive!MillwallFan said:
Now our 999 year lease has been confirmed the Berylsons plan to expand The Den. Talk is to 34k. I don’t think we’re ready for that size yet but we certainly need more than the 20k we currently have. We’ve sold out 15 times this season and have been regularly selling out for the last few seasons. And quite often it’ll be well in advance of the actual match so the demand is there.letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.I think 26k would be plenty but I suppose by going for 34k that covers for any sustained success the future may bring on the pitch.
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lol, just responding to the post about us not expanding unless we went up. It’s already in the pipeline if we go up or not. Sorry 😂cantersaddick said:
Dont come on here and talk about success. Its annoying! Not to mention insensitive!MillwallFan said:
Now our 999 year lease has been confirmed the Berylsons plan to expand The Den. Talk is to 34k. I don’t think we’re ready for that size yet but we certainly need more than the 20k we currently have. We’ve sold out 15 times this season and have been regularly selling out for the last few seasons. And quite often it’ll be well in advance of the actual match so the demand is there.letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.I think 26k would be plenty but I suppose by going for 34k that covers for any sustained success the future may bring on the pitch.1 -
It looks far too clean and architecturally pleasing for Millwall. Other teams’ fans may start to enjoy going there when they start discovering that they no longer contract disease by doing so.MillwallFan said:
Now our 999 year lease has been confirmed the Berylsons plan to expand The Den. Talk is to 34k. I don’t think we’re ready for that size yet but we certainly need more than the 20k we currently have. We’ve sold out 15 times this season and have been regularly selling out for the last few seasons. And quite often it’ll be well in advance of the actual match so the demand is there.letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.I think 26k would be plenty but I suppose by going for 34k that covers for any sustained success the future may bring on the pitch.
Millwall will lose all their identity because others will start liking them.
It’s a very bad idea. You need to keep your ground as shitty and disgusting as possible, as you’ve always done, otherwise you’ll have to change your favourite song.5 -
That would depend on the lease. As you know Surrey do not own the Oval, but have spent Tens of millions of pounds developing the stands there.letthegoodtimesroll said:
In the world in which the club owners buy it. Until I read the @Raith_C_Chattonell post above I hadn’t realised that development creep had got so close to the ground. Now is probably a better time to sort out the ownership of the ground rather than wait until it’s worth considerably more.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
We don't even own our stadium, in what world do you think we are going to be expanding it?letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.
it wouldn’t be cheap expanding the capacity at Charlton but we are still at a low point in a rising curve. Averaging 20k this season, particularly when our home form took a dive, is pretty impressive. More importantly, we broke the playoff ‘Jinx/curse’ of being promoted at Wembley and getting relegated straight away. Next season could now see another big step forward. Ideally levelling up the roof of the East stand so it wraps around from the Upper North and filling that resulting void should be the next stage but I would guess developing the South stand would be a lot cheaper and the less disruptive option for us than expanding the capacity for those other 3 clubs if we do it before we really need it if the curve keeps rising.0 -
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.2 -
Millwall have a ground with 50% less capacity than ours - to have a promotion campaign in the championship and not sell out would be hard even for them - they will be adding some new lights for a prem style light show if they go up - the new ground development t will never happen4
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Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.5 -
Maths not your strong point Douchy (as well as predicting things). Your capacity is 27000. So 50% less would be 13500. Our capacity is just under 20k.DOUCHER said:Millwall have a ground with 50% less capacity than ours - to have a promotion campaign in the championship and not sell out would be hard even for them - they will be adding some new lights for a prem style light show if they go up - the new ground development t will never happen2 -
At a guess I’d say our actual genuine home crowds are very similar these days? Taking away the away crowd we’re around the 15/16k mark. From what you’re saying and what I’ve seen Charlton are about the same?Airman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.Not including midweek games of course where both of us take a big dip in crowds.1 -
‘Worth’ was the point.fenaddick said:
The winners of the 2024-25 Championship play-off final are set to receive a minimum of £200m in extra income.valleynick66 said:Promotion isn’t worth £150m though. We will still be loss making.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cp92z8dlv8xoThe sum isn’t disputed its value is my point. We aren’t going to be turning a profit and thus that income alone isn’t the incentive for owners.It’s a vanity project I think with the outside chance of selling if we get to the promised land. In the short term finances are about minimising losses.We’ve already established losses are bigger in the Championship than L1 for example.0 -
Millwall's average attendance is just over 17k this season so a difference of 3k. While I can accept our 20k isn't actual there's no way our actual crowds are on par, that would need for us to have an actual of 17k which is 3k empty reported seats against Millwall actually having all 17k crowds actual. Maybe 1.5k-2k actual difference but no more than that.MillwallFan said:
At a guess I’d say our actual genuine home crowds are very similar these days? Taking away the away crowd we’re around the 15/16k mark. From what you’re saying and what I’ve seen Charlton are about the same?Airman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.Not including midweek games of course where both of us take a big dip in crowds.
All clubs manipulate the figures even if it feels like a Charlton only thing sometimes on here.1 -
Sounds like, while they gentrify to the New, New Den, they need to be sharing with Palace to really enhance that “shitty & disgusting” element 😉jimmymelrose said:
It looks far too clean and architecturally pleasing for Millwall. Other teams’ fans may start to enjoy going there when they start discovering that they no longer contract disease by doing so.MillwallFan said:
Now our 999 year lease has been confirmed the Berylsons plan to expand The Den. Talk is to 34k. I don’t think we’re ready for that size yet but we certainly need more than the 20k we currently have. We’ve sold out 15 times this season and have been regularly selling out for the last few seasons. And quite often it’ll be well in advance of the actual match so the demand is there.letthegoodtimesroll said:
I suspect it’s more likely the capacity at The Valley will be increased long before any of those 3 grounds will be. QPR will have to move. Millwall could increase theirs but I suspect that would only come if they do go up and stay there. Palace have plans that don’t seem to have progressed for ‘years’ and we are now at the stage where it’s probably a big ask to fund them.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
All of those would have bigger attendances if their capacity allowed though.letthegoodtimesroll said:QPR, Millwall and Brentford average attendance this season looks to be either side of 17k. Palace looks like it’s around 24k. Our 20k for the season doesn’t look too shabby, more so when you consider we don’t have the PL attraction boost or a promotion chasing season firing up the bandwagon.I think 26k would be plenty but I suppose by going for 34k that covers for any sustained success the future may bring on the pitch.
Millwall will lose all their identity because others will start liking them.
It’s a very bad idea. You need to keep your ground as shitty and disgusting as possible, as you’ve always done, otherwise you’ll have to change your favourite song.3 -
As Airman says, all clubs manipulate figures in the fact that they include unused season tickets. But that’s seats bought and paid for so I get it. Not many clubs do what Charlton do and include unused comps. There’s always been talk that Charlton do this but your own expert on the subject, Airman, confirms it on here and has done in the past as well.MartinCAFC said:
Millwall's average attendance is just over 17k this season so a difference of 3k. While I can accept our 20k isn't actual there's no way our actual crowds are on par, that would need for us to have an actual of 17k which is 3k empty reported seats against Millwall actually having all 17k crowds actual. Maybe 1.5k-2k actual difference but no more than that.MillwallFan said:
At a guess I’d say our actual genuine home crowds are very similar these days? Taking away the away crowd we’re around the 15/16k mark. From what you’re saying and what I’ve seen Charlton are about the same?Airman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.Not including midweek games of course where both of us take a big dip in crowds.
All clubs manipulate the figures even if it feels like a Charlton only thing sometimes on here.We used to give out a fair few comps when our average attendance was much smaller as there were always plenty of spare seats. I don’t know if we included these in our attendances or not. I do know we can’t do that now. We sell out nearly every weekend game (15 this season in total. It’s our midweek attendances that brings our season average down) so wouldn’t have the spares to dish out anyway.
Charlton have the luxury (if you can call it that) of 7000 plus empty unpaid for seats every game so can dish out comps Willy nilly. The question is why do they add these to the official attendance? What’s the motive? You’ve been in a state of being sold in one form or another for the last 10 or 20 years now. Maybe the manipulation of your average crowds is to try and entice buyers. Show that you’re a bigger club than you actually are. And now you’ve been bought, to keep up that pretence up by the people running the club to the owners.I don’t know. But I know whenever I watch Charlton on the box the home ends only ever look half full and occasionally maybe two thirds full at the very max.
An interesting stat, the last time we were both in the championship a table of every clubs gate receipts got released. Millwall took more in gate receipts than Charlton that season despite Charlton having a bigger average attendance. Make of that what you will 😉1 -
Not bad since we have either been "industrial" or "fucking shit" OR both at home this season.
These petty dick waving threads with the puppy stanglers from down the road are pointless...
We are huge.
They are Smallwall.3 -
Less season tickets at the Den ?MillwallFan said:
As Airman says, all clubs manipulate figures in the fact that they include unused season tickets. But that’s seats bought and paid for so I get it. Not many clubs do what Charlton do and include unused comps. There’s always been talk that Charlton do this but your own expert on the subject, Airman, confirms it on here and has done in the past as well.MartinCAFC said:
Millwall's average attendance is just over 17k this season so a difference of 3k. While I can accept our 20k isn't actual there's no way our actual crowds are on par, that would need for us to have an actual of 17k which is 3k empty reported seats against Millwall actually having all 17k crowds actual. Maybe 1.5k-2k actual difference but no more than that.MillwallFan said:
At a guess I’d say our actual genuine home crowds are very similar these days? Taking away the away crowd we’re around the 15/16k mark. From what you’re saying and what I’ve seen Charlton are about the same?Airman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.Not including midweek games of course where both of us take a big dip in crowds.
All clubs manipulate the figures even if it feels like a Charlton only thing sometimes on here.We used to give out a fair few comps when our average attendance was much smaller as there were always plenty of spare seats. I don’t know if we included these in our attendances or not. I do know we can’t do that now. We sell out nearly every weekend game (15 this season in total. It’s our midweek attendances that brings our season average down) so wouldn’t have the spares to dish out anyway.
Charlton have the luxury (if you can call it that) of 7000 plus empty unpaid for seats every game so can dish out comps Willy nilly. The question is why do they add these to the official attendance? What’s the motive? You’ve been in a state of being sold in one form or another for the last 10 or 20 years now. Maybe the manipulation of your average crowds is to try and entice buyers. Show that you’re a bigger club than you actually are. And now you’ve been bought, to keep up that pretence up by the people running the club to the owners.I don’t know. But I know whenever I watch Charlton on the box the home ends only ever look half full and occasionally maybe two thirds full at the very max.
An interesting stat, the last time we were both in the championship a table of every clubs gate receipts got released. Millwall took more in gate receipts than Charlton that season despite Charlton having a bigger average attendance. Make of that what you will 😉0 -
See this is the funny thing (to me anyway lol and why I comment on the subject). The vast majority of Millwall fans couldn’t give a toss about being seen as a big club. We actually revel in being the small club who punches above our weight. “Biggest small club in the world” and all that.soapy_jones said:Not bad since we have either been "industrial" or "fucking shit" OR both at home this season.
These petty dick waving threads with the puppy stanglers from down the road are pointless...
We are huge.
They are Smallwall.From what I’ve seen from Charlton fans, on here and in the real world, your fans really seem bothered about being seen as a big club. Not all of you obviously, but a lot. The very fact that you call us Small, (when you’re not that big yourselves) says it all. I mean, our other two main rivals, West Ham and palace, are genuinely much bigger than us, but they never hit us with the small thing.Anyway, it’s all a bit of harmless banter, I get that. But I do think a lot of you do harbour delusions of grandeur. The reaction from some fans on here when I happen to point out that there isn’t much difference in our real life attendances says it all. They genuinely think that Charlton are massive compared to us. I’d say you’re a bit bigger, but there’s not a lot in it. It’s very minimal and closing all the time.Just an observation on my part. No malice meant 🙏2 -
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Yes could be a contributing factor.letthegoodtimesroll said:
Less season tickets at the Den ?MillwallFan said:
As Airman says, all clubs manipulate figures in the fact that they include unused season tickets. But that’s seats bought and paid for so I get it. Not many clubs do what Charlton do and include unused comps. There’s always been talk that Charlton do this but your own expert on the subject, Airman, confirms it on here and has done in the past as well.MartinCAFC said:
Millwall's average attendance is just over 17k this season so a difference of 3k. While I can accept our 20k isn't actual there's no way our actual crowds are on par, that would need for us to have an actual of 17k which is 3k empty reported seats against Millwall actually having all 17k crowds actual. Maybe 1.5k-2k actual difference but no more than that.MillwallFan said:
At a guess I’d say our actual genuine home crowds are very similar these days? Taking away the away crowd we’re around the 15/16k mark. From what you’re saying and what I’ve seen Charlton are about the same?Airman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.Not including midweek games of course where both of us take a big dip in crowds.
All clubs manipulate the figures even if it feels like a Charlton only thing sometimes on here.We used to give out a fair few comps when our average attendance was much smaller as there were always plenty of spare seats. I don’t know if we included these in our attendances or not. I do know we can’t do that now. We sell out nearly every weekend game (15 this season in total. It’s our midweek attendances that brings our season average down) so wouldn’t have the spares to dish out anyway.
Charlton have the luxury (if you can call it that) of 7000 plus empty unpaid for seats every game so can dish out comps Willy nilly. The question is why do they add these to the official attendance? What’s the motive? You’ve been in a state of being sold in one form or another for the last 10 or 20 years now. Maybe the manipulation of your average crowds is to try and entice buyers. Show that you’re a bigger club than you actually are. And now you’ve been bought, to keep up that pretence up by the people running the club to the owners.I don’t know. But I know whenever I watch Charlton on the box the home ends only ever look half full and occasionally maybe two thirds full at the very max.
An interesting stat, the last time we were both in the championship a table of every clubs gate receipts got released. Millwall took more in gate receipts than Charlton that season despite Charlton having a bigger average attendance. Make of that what you will 😉0 -
true -i meant ours is 50% bigger than yours - oh and we have just stayed up as predicted and your just about to stay down as predicted - and you've won nothing again as per the last 141 years - as predictedMillwallFan said:
Maths not your strong point Douchy (as well as predicting things). Your capacity is 27000. So 50% less would be 13500. Our capacity is just under 20k.DOUCHER said:Millwall have a ground with 50% less capacity than ours - to have a promotion campaign in the championship and not sell out would be hard even for them - they will be adding some new lights for a prem style light show if they go up - the new ground development t will never happen0 -
at a guess, i'd say your talking absolute bollocks as usualMillwallFan said:
At a guess I’d say our actual genuine home crowds are very similar these days? Taking away the away crowd we’re around the 15/16k mark. From what you’re saying and what I’ve seen Charlton are about the same?Airman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.Not including midweek games of course where both of us take a big dip in crowds.0 -
my sister in law was flooded with free millwall tickets in her dept working at both farnborough and Queen Elizabeth (i think it is) hospital in charlton - all clubs do itAirman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.0 -
conducted a survey across the league have you? i don't know how you get away with coming on here talking so much bollox bigging up milllwall and running down charlton - more to the point, why do you bother? as you say, you revel in being small so just leave it at that - page after page of drivel, i'm sure you're that moody chap - the millwall fan obsessed with charlton - can be the only explanationMillwallFan said:
As Airman says, all clubs manipulate figures in the fact that they include unused season tickets. But that’s seats bought and paid for so I get it. Not many clubs do what Charlton do and include unused comps. There’s always been talk that Charlton do this but your own expert on the subject, Airman, confirms it on here and has done in the past as well.MartinCAFC said:
Millwall's average attendance is just over 17k this season so a difference of 3k. While I can accept our 20k isn't actual there's no way our actual crowds are on par, that would need for us to have an actual of 17k which is 3k empty reported seats against Millwall actually having all 17k crowds actual. Maybe 1.5k-2k actual difference but no more than that.MillwallFan said:
At a guess I’d say our actual genuine home crowds are very similar these days? Taking away the away crowd we’re around the 15/16k mark. From what you’re saying and what I’ve seen Charlton are about the same?Airman Brown said:
Clubs will have the same methodology for calculating attendances but very different appetites and opportunities for issuing comps and they will also change over time. Charlton have, at times, issues many thousands of comps, most of which are not used, and this has distorted our figures.DOUCHER said:
Whatever manipulation is done will be done by all other clubsBedsaddick said:
Not true . They were manipulated just as bad ten years ago .jimmymelrose said:Don't want to put a downer on this but the statistics are probably compiled more favourably that 10 years ago.All clubs include all season ticket holders; Charlton have had an unusually high proportion not attending. That will have been especially true in 2008/09 and under Duchatelet.
The two issues are different because counting a ticket someone has bought is clearly different from counting a ticket with no cost and which may well never have been issued to an individual. But before the turnstiles had readers the club did not keep track of how many comps were used. It did and does have a turnstile count and it’s obvious that people in the ground did not average 20k in any season since 2007/08 and hasn’t this season either.Not including midweek games of course where both of us take a big dip in crowds.
All clubs manipulate the figures even if it feels like a Charlton only thing sometimes on here.We used to give out a fair few comps when our average attendance was much smaller as there were always plenty of spare seats. I don’t know if we included these in our attendances or not. I do know we can’t do that now. We sell out nearly every weekend game (15 this season in total. It’s our midweek attendances that brings our season average down) so wouldn’t have the spares to dish out anyway.
Charlton have the luxury (if you can call it that) of 7000 plus empty unpaid for seats every game so can dish out comps Willy nilly. The question is why do they add these to the official attendance? What’s the motive? You’ve been in a state of being sold in one form or another for the last 10 or 20 years now. Maybe the manipulation of your average crowds is to try and entice buyers. Show that you’re a bigger club than you actually are. And now you’ve been bought, to keep up that pretence up by the people running the club to the owners.I don’t know. But I know whenever I watch Charlton on the box the home ends only ever look half full and occasionally maybe two thirds full at the very max.
An interesting stat, the last time we were both in the championship a table of every clubs gate receipts got released. Millwall took more in gate receipts than Charlton that season despite Charlton having a bigger average attendance. Make of that what you will 😉1 -
He’s hardly bigging up Millwall. He’s just said that he thinks they’re smaller than West Ham and Palace, and probably a little smaller than us still.
He certainly doesn’t come on here to run us down. Why are you starting a ’fight’ with a sensible and friendly opposition fan?
If you don’t want to discuss things with reasonable opposition fans then leave us others to get on with it.11 -
Well this season you predicted that we’d get relegated, finish below Charlton, be below Charlton by the time we played in January, have a 1996 esque post Christmas bomb and finally that we would miss out on top 6. Now you’re predicting that we probably won’t go up. If you keep raising the bar then sooner or later you were going to get one correct. 😁DOUCHER said:
true -i meant ours is 50% bigger than yours - oh and we have just stayed up as predicted and your just about to stay down as predicted - and you've won nothing again as per the last 141 years - as predictedMillwallFan said:
Maths not your strong point Douchy (as well as predicting things). Your capacity is 27000. So 50% less would be 13500. Our capacity is just under 20k.DOUCHER said:Millwall have a ground with 50% less capacity than ours - to have a promotion campaign in the championship and not sell out would be hard even for them - they will be adding some new lights for a prem style light show if they go up - the new ground development t will never happen
as for your sister and her Millwall comps, as I mentioned before, we would’ve done that in the past but there’s no way any club would do that when they’re hitting max capacity for most games. We sell out most weekend games now a days and the socials are always awash with people asking for spares. There’s no way we would be giving away loads of comps if demand is that high.
1 -
Thank you. I love a debate about football, the history of it and fan culture in general. I really do try and keep it respectful on here though.jimmymelrose said:He’s hardly bigging up Millwall. He’s just said that he thinks they’re smaller than West Ham and Palace, and probably a little smaller than us still.
He certainly doesn’t come on here to run us down. Why are you starting a ’fight’ with a sensible and friendly opposition fan?
If you don’t want to discuss things with reasonable opposition fans then leave us others to get on with it.Douchy’s alright really. I know his type. All angry on the internet but if we were having the same debate over a pint in the pub he would be a totally different person.1 -
Oh, and if your capacity was 50% bigger than ours then that would mean the Valleys capacity would be 30000. Sorry to be pedantic. It’s just in my nature 😁DOUCHER said:
true -i meant ours is 50% bigger than yours - oh and we have just stayed up as predicted and your just about to stay down as predicted - and you've won nothing again as per the last 141 years - as predictedMillwallFan said:
Maths not your strong point Douchy (as well as predicting things). Your capacity is 27000. So 50% less would be 13500. Our capacity is just under 20k.DOUCHER said:Millwall have a ground with 50% less capacity than ours - to have a promotion campaign in the championship and not sell out would be hard even for them - they will be adding some new lights for a prem style light show if they go up - the new ground development t will never happen0 -
Do any Charlton fans say (or even think) we're a big club?MillwallFan said:
See this is the funny thing (to me anyway lol and why I comment on the subject). The vast majority of Millwall fans couldn’t give a toss about being seen as a big club. We actually revel in being the small club who punches above our weight. “Biggest small club in the world” and all that.soapy_jones said:Not bad since we have either been "industrial" or "fucking shit" OR both at home this season.
These petty dick waving threads with the puppy stanglers from down the road are pointless...
We are huge.
They are Smallwall.From what I’ve seen from Charlton fans, on here and in the real world, your fans really seem bothered about being seen as a big club. Not all of you obviously, but a lot. The very fact that you call us Small, (when you’re not that big yourselves) says it all. I mean, our other two main rivals, West Ham and palace, are genuinely much bigger than us, but they never hit us with the small thing.Anyway, it’s all a bit of harmless banter, I get that. But I do think a lot of you do harbour delusions of grandeur. The reaction from some fans on here when I happen to point out that there isn’t much difference in our real life attendances says it all. They genuinely think that Charlton are massive compared to us. I’d say you’re a bit bigger, but there’s not a lot in it. It’s very minimal and closing all the time.Just an observation on my part. No malice meant 🙏
I guess it depends on the context. We were too big a club to be stuck in league one for five years (and 8 years out of 9) i know that much. But we're obviously not a big club in the wider context of football in general. 15 of the other 23 clubs in the championship had a higher average attendance than us this season.3
