I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

shine166 said:

NabySarr said:

shine166 said:

NabySarr said:

Croydon said:

I do understand anyone who is Jones in at this stage, but the way some of you talk about him you'd think he was the second coming of Christ. 

In fairness the second coming of Christ would have struggled with the team he inherited a few years ago. Club had been declining on and off the pitch for a decade, to turn that around so quickly was incredible. I’m not surprised that myself and others feel strongly he deserved a bit more time to turn this around 

How many seasons does the grace period last ? Im not saying sack Jones, but this was 4 seasons ago now. 

But over those 4 seasons we have continued to progress each year, so it’s not like he’s been shit and there’s been any kind of grace period. 

Our progress may have stalled this season, it’s probably too early to say either way. But I still think the biggest driver of that stalling is our lack of investment this summer, rather than Jones 

The fact he kept us up 4 seasons ago definitely feels like a grace period, it’s mentioned every time people talk about replacing him or questioning our situation.

It’s mentioned because it shows how far he has taken us in a short period of time. Which is why he does deserve a grace period of longer than 3 defeats 

NabySarr said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

NabySarr said:

Croydon said:

I do understand anyone who is Jones in at this stage, but the way some of you talk about him you'd think he was the second coming of Christ. 

In fairness the second coming of Christ would have struggled with the team he inherited a few years ago. Club had been declining on and off the pitch for a decade, to turn that around so quickly was incredible. I’m not surprised that myself and others feel strongly he deserved a bit more time to turn this around 

Would you sack him if we got relegated?

I think the point of no return would probably be reached before it happened, but yes if we got relegated we would probably need to make the change. 

We’ve lost 3 games this season though, and are nearer the playoffs than the bottom 3. So personally I think it would be a ridiculous decision to sack him, and I think that’s how it would be viewed by the wider footballing world. Most pre-season predictions either had us relegated, or had us just staying up because we had Nathan Jones. Remove him and I think we’d go down. If we stay up then he’s done his job once again, and hopefully we can sort the ownership situation out to try and progress again next season 

Makes less sense to sack him if we got relegated, as he's proven that he can get teams promoted from League One before. You either get rid to try and save us (agree not yet) but if we're down, annoyingly he's probably best placed to get us back up.

EugenesAxe said:

bobmunro said:

You don't need to pay £30m for a Stradivarius - as the old saying goes "there is many a good tune played on an old fiddle". 

What if it wont stay in tune and one of the strings keeps breaking?

I would want  my £30m back.

bobmunro said:

I still don't fully get the argument that we haven't got the players to play competently at Championship level. Our entire squad is made up of players who have gone through academies (ours or others) starting from the age of 7 or so, and have plied there trade in professional football. They can all run, pass, dribble, shoot, head a football, tackle. They have experience enough to read a game, to cover players, and so on. It's not an elite squad of course but it's not without competence.

We've taken 5 points from the last 8 games, only scoring 5 goals in that time. That is abysmal but I genuinely do not believe that is solely down to our players not being good enough. For me it is so much more about team selection - Jones stating that he's been sticking to the same 14 players when, for example, he readily admits that Knibbs is pulling up trees in training), and above all else tactics. As others have said, Kelman is a goal scorer that will and has scored goals at this level, yet he seldom plays and virtually never starts. Instead he sticks with Leaburn and pumps long balls up to him with very little support after any successful first touch. Kelman comes on and the same thing happens - he is not a target man, he's a finisher.

You don't need to pay £30m for a Stadivaius - as the old saying goes "there is many a good tune played on an old fiddle". 

It's on Jones and he must change his approach. He can't be right and the vast majority of onlookers (Charlton fans or not) all be wrong.

I find that a strange argument - every other squad in the Championship has a squad made up of players who have been playing football since the age of 7 and can run, head, kick etc.

The problem for us is that the vast majority of teams in the Championship can do this better than our squad - and that’s why they are much more expensively assembled, and better, than us. For all the talk of formations, team selection etc, the more fundamental point is that most weeks we are lining up against a team that is better than us. 

bobmunro said:

I still don't fully get the argument that we haven't got the players to play competently at Championship level. Our entire squad is made up of players who have gone through academies (ours or others) starting from the age of 7 or so, and have plied there trade in professional football. They can all run, pass, dribble, shoot, head a football, tackle. They have experience enough to read a game, to cover players, and so on. It's not an elite squad of course but it's not without competence.

st change his approach. He can't be right and the vast majority of onlookers (Charlton fans or not) all be wrong.

Players in league 1 and 2 and probably alot in the conference have also gone through academies. Does that mean they are good enough for the championship?

MarcusH26 said:

I do think there's a really interesting conversation to be had about the transfer strategy. I get bringing in champ experience on frees in Danny Mac and Grant because that's something that showed in January with the arrivals of Clarke and Dykes that having that experience and knowledge of the level was invaluable to have. Mesik looks like an absolute steal at £500k same with Billy K at a similar fee - I imagine we were probably also watching Luke Graham at the same time at Dundee and couldn't compete with Stoke for him. 

Midfield is the puzzling one. Chalobah is made of glass but everyone in the game knows that so it was always going to be when he got injured not if. Skipp feels like a panic loan signing on deadline day which fits more in with some of the deadline day messes under previous owners. 

It's clear we tried for Holsgrove and maybe we try again in January but I don't really see the similarities between Holsgrove as this more technical deep lying playmaker and ending up with Ouma who on YouTube looked far more like the type of physical CM NJ has had most places he's been. 

Alli I don't fully understand the signing unless at some stage there was some serious chance TC was actually going? 

I guess coming into the summer I was expecting all this talk of quartiles and stuff from Carter to translate into getting the chequebook out a couple of times for serious quality. Maybe the taps have been turned off and the budget cut because some of the investors want out , I doubt we'll ever truly know. 

McNamara made sense as a backup RB in a 4. The problem was Ramsay got injured (again) and by the time he came back we'd tortoised back into a 5 with Ramsay playing centre back. McNamara should not have played 12 games already this season. Grant was a smart signing on a free and we accepted a bid for TC so I think we were genuinely willing to let him go if he didn't want to sign a new deal. We did well in filling in spaces that needed some improvement but we somehow managed to avoid some of the most glaring ones; backup RB, new keeper, replacement for Gillesphey, competition for Edwards, winger to compete with/rest TC now that we're playing with wingers. All important in their own way but mostly focused on cover or slight improvement in areas where we were already strong or could have continued on without a first team replacement.

Where we were really looking for serious improvement though was central midfield, on the right wing and up front and we didn't properly address almost any of that. We needed competition for Coventry with Coady gone, which we've got but aren't using as it. The most important piece was a more progressive midfielder to replace Docherty. Chalobah was fine as the rotation option there given his injury history but our biggest signing needed to be there and we ended up with Ouma which has been disastrous. We needed a right winger, ideally two given the Apter situation, and we got none. Obviously the JRS situation was unexpected but it feels like we went a little early on Alli to act as backup to Grant on the left assuming TC was gone. We also needed to get a striker in to replace Dykes. Even though we were going from two strikers to one we only had a very injured Godden, an injury prone Leaburn and what now looks like an injury prone Kelman. Given Godden's age and the others' fitness a 4th striker was important and instead we've just promoted Mbick who doesn't look ready. To need to do something in those 4 positions and only have signed a player in one, and that being the least needy, is slightly insane. I love Koumetio but I also would have been fine with Bell at LCB. Not getting in a right winger even after JRS fell through was bizarre

NabySarr said:

Garrymanilow said:

MarcusH26 said:

I do think there's a really interesting conversation to be had about the transfer strategy. I get bringing in champ experience on frees in Danny Mac and Grant because that's something that showed in January with the arrivals of Clarke and Dykes that having that experience and knowledge of the level was invaluable to have. Mesik looks like an absolute steal at £500k same with Billy K at a similar fee - I imagine we were probably also watching Luke Graham at the same time at Dundee and couldn't compete with Stoke for him. 

Midfield is the puzzling one. Chalobah is made of glass but everyone in the game knows that so it was always going to be when he got injured not if. Skipp feels like a panic loan signing on deadline day which fits more in with some of the deadline day messes under previous owners. 

It's clear we tried for Holsgrove and maybe we try again in January but I don't really see the similarities between Holsgrove as this more technical deep lying playmaker and ending up with Ouma who on YouTube looked far more like the type of physical CM NJ has had most places he's been. 

Alli I don't fully understand the signing unless at some stage there was some serious chance TC was actually going? 

I guess coming into the summer I was expecting all this talk of quartiles and stuff from Carter to translate into getting the chequebook out a couple of times for serious quality. Maybe the taps have been turned off and the budget cut because some of the investors want out , I doubt we'll ever truly know. 

McNamara made sense as a backup RB in a 4. The problem was Ramsay got injured (again) and by the time he came back we'd tortoised back into a 5 with Ramsay playing centre back. McNamara should not have played 12 games already this season. Grant was a smart signing on a free and we accepted a bid for TC so I think we were genuinely willing to let him go if he didn't want to sign a new deal. We did well in filling in spaces that needed some improvement but we somehow managed to avoid some of the most glaring ones; backup RB, new keeper, replacement for Gillesphey, competition for Edwards, winger to compete with/rest TC now that we're playing with wingers. All important in their own way but mostly focused on cover or slight improvement in areas where we were already strong or could have continued on without a first team replacement.

Where we were really looking for serious improvement though was central midfield, on the right wing and up front and we didn't properly address almost any of that. We needed competition for Coventry with Coady gone, which we've got but aren't using as it. The most important piece was a more progressive midfielder to replace Docherty. Chalobah was fine as the rotation option there given his injury history but our biggest signing needed to be there and we ended up with Ouma which has been disastrous. We needed a right winger, ideally two given the Apter situation, and we got none. Obviously the JRS situation was unexpected but it feels like we went a little early on Alli to act as backup to Grant on the left assuming TC was gone. We also needed to get a striker in to replace Dykes. Even though we were going from two strikers to one we only had a very injured Godden, an injury prone Leaburn and what now looks like an injury prone Kelman. Given Godden's age and the others' fitness a 4th striker was important and instead we've just promoted Mbick who doesn't look ready. To need to do something in those 4 positions and only have signed a player in one, and that being the least needy, is slightly insane. I love Koumetio but I also would have been fine with Bell at LCB. Not getting in a right winger even after JRS fell through was bizarre

All very good points, but in the context of the should Jones be sacked conversation, it was clear he wanted to address those areas this summer from pretty much every time he spoke about the summer window that he wanted more quality in midfield to give us more control, and a right sided attacking player. He didn’t get either of those, so the questions, blame and criticism should be aimed above Jones 

Part of our issue is we don’t know where to aim that, whether it is Rodwell or Chapple or the owners, so instead it is aimed at Jones who imo has been let down 

NabySarr said:

Garrymanilow said:

MarcusH26 said:

I do think there's a really interesting conversation to be had about the transfer strategy. I get bringing in champ experience on frees in Danny Mac and Grant because that's something that showed in January with the arrivals of Clarke and Dykes that having that experience and knowledge of the level was invaluable to have. Mesik looks like an absolute steal at £500k same with Billy K at a similar fee - I imagine we were probably also watching Luke Graham at the same time at Dundee and couldn't compete with Stoke for him. 

Midfield is the puzzling one. Chalobah is made of glass but everyone in the game knows that so it was always going to be when he got injured not if. Skipp feels like a panic loan signing on deadline day which fits more in with some of the deadline day messes under previous owners. 

It's clear we tried for Holsgrove and maybe we try again in January but I don't really see the similarities between Holsgrove as this more technical deep lying playmaker and ending up with Ouma who on YouTube looked far more like the type of physical CM NJ has had most places he's been. 

Alli I don't fully understand the signing unless at some stage there was some serious chance TC was actually going? 

I guess coming into the summer I was expecting all this talk of quartiles and stuff from Carter to translate into getting the chequebook out a couple of times for serious quality. Maybe the taps have been turned off and the budget cut because some of the investors want out , I doubt we'll ever truly know. 

McNamara made sense as a backup RB in a 4. The problem was Ramsay got injured (again) and by the time he came back we'd tortoised back into a 5 with Ramsay playing centre back. McNamara should not have played 12 games already this season. Grant was a smart signing on a free and we accepted a bid for TC so I think we were genuinely willing to let him go if he didn't want to sign a new deal. We did well in filling in spaces that needed some improvement but we somehow managed to avoid some of the most glaring ones; backup RB, new keeper, replacement for Gillesphey, competition for Edwards, winger to compete with/rest TC now that we're playing with wingers. All important in their own way but mostly focused on cover or slight improvement in areas where we were already strong or could have continued on without a first team replacement.

Where we were really looking for serious improvement though was central midfield, on the right wing and up front and we didn't properly address almost any of that. We needed competition for Coventry with Coady gone, which we've got but aren't using as it. The most important piece was a more progressive midfielder to replace Docherty. Chalobah was fine as the rotation option there given his injury history but our biggest signing needed to be there and we ended up with Ouma which has been disastrous. We needed a right winger, ideally two given the Apter situation, and we got none. Obviously the JRS situation was unexpected but it feels like we went a little early on Alli to act as backup to Grant on the left assuming TC was gone. We also needed to get a striker in to replace Dykes. Even though we were going from two strikers to one we only had a very injured Godden, an injury prone Leaburn and what now looks like an injury prone Kelman. Given Godden's age and the others' fitness a 4th striker was important and instead we've just promoted Mbick who doesn't look ready. To need to do something in those 4 positions and only have signed a player in one, and that being the least needy, is slightly insane. I love Koumetio but I also would have been fine with Bell at LCB. Not getting in a right winger even after JRS fell through was bizarre

All very good points, but in the context of the should Jones be sacked conversation, it was clear he wanted to address those areas this summer from pretty much every time he spoke about the summer window that he wanted more quality in midfield to give us more control, and a right sided attacking player. He didn’t get either of those, so the questions, blame and criticism should be aimed above Jones 

Part of our issue is we don’t know where to aim that, whether it is Rodwell or Chapple or the owners, so instead it is aimed at Jones who imo has been let down 

To be fair, I know I'm on the Jones thread but I genuinely don't give a shit if they do it or not. Sack him, don't sack him, the funding will remain the same which means that this will happen again before long whoever is in charge. It happens more quickly with Jones because he's a divisive character and his football isn't very entertaining but if we're writing hundreds of OUT posts annually on a thread for a manager who got us promoted, kept us in the division and still hasn't dipped us into the drop zone yet despite having a bottom 3 budget then it's going to happen with the next one and the next one and the next one too. Hire whoever. Get it over with

ElfsborgAddick said:

NabySarr said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

NabySarr said:

Garrymanilow said:

MarcusH26 said:

I do think there's a really interesting conversation to be had about the transfer strategy. I get bringing in champ experience on frees in Danny Mac and Grant because that's something that showed in January with the arrivals of Clarke and Dykes that having that experience and knowledge of the level was invaluable to have. Mesik looks like an absolute steal at £500k same with Billy K at a similar fee - I imagine we were probably also watching Luke Graham at the same time at Dundee and couldn't compete with Stoke for him. 

Midfield is the puzzling one. Chalobah is made of glass but everyone in the game knows that so it was always going to be when he got injured not if. Skipp feels like a panic loan signing on deadline day which fits more in with some of the deadline day messes under previous owners. 

It's clear we tried for Holsgrove and maybe we try again in January but I don't really see the similarities between Holsgrove as this more technical deep lying playmaker and ending up with Ouma who on YouTube looked far more like the type of physical CM NJ has had most places he's been. 

Alli I don't fully understand the signing unless at some stage there was some serious chance TC was actually going? 

I guess coming into the summer I was expecting all this talk of quartiles and stuff from Carter to translate into getting the chequebook out a couple of times for serious quality. Maybe the taps have been turned off and the budget cut because some of the investors want out , I doubt we'll ever truly know. 

McNamara made sense as a backup RB in a 4. The problem was Ramsay got injured (again) and by the time he came back we'd tortoised back into a 5 with Ramsay playing centre back. McNamara should not have played 12 games already this season. Grant was a smart signing on a free and we accepted a bid for TC so I think we were genuinely willing to let him go if he didn't want to sign a new deal. We did well in filling in spaces that needed some improvement but we somehow managed to avoid some of the most glaring ones; backup RB, new keeper, replacement for Gillesphey, competition for Edwards, winger to compete with/rest TC now that we're playing with wingers. All important in their own way but mostly focused on cover or slight improvement in areas where we were already strong or could have continued on without a first team replacement.

Where we were really looking for serious improvement though was central midfield, on the right wing and up front and we didn't properly address almost any of that. We needed competition for Coventry with Coady gone, which we've got but aren't using as it. The most important piece was a more progressive midfielder to replace Docherty. Chalobah was fine as the rotation option there given his injury history but our biggest signing needed to be there and we ended up with Ouma which has been disastrous. We needed a right winger, ideally two given the Apter situation, and we got none. Obviously the JRS situation was unexpected but it feels like we went a little early on Alli to act as backup to Grant on the left assuming TC was gone. We also needed to get a striker in to replace Dykes. Even though we were going from two strikers to one we only had a very injured Godden, an injury prone Leaburn and what now looks like an injury prone Kelman. Given Godden's age and the others' fitness a 4th striker was important and instead we've just promoted Mbick who doesn't look ready. To need to do something in those 4 positions and only have signed a player in one, and that being the least needy, is slightly insane. I love Koumetio but I also would have been fine with Bell at LCB. Not getting in a right winger even after JRS fell through was bizarre

All very good points, but in the context of the should Jones be sacked conversation, it was clear he wanted to address those areas this summer from pretty much every time he spoke about the summer window that he wanted more quality in midfield to give us more control, and a right sided attacking player. He didn’t get either of those, so the questions, blame and criticism should be aimed above Jones 

Part of our issue is we don’t know where to aim that, whether it is Rodwell or Chapple or the owners, so instead it is aimed at Jones who imo has been let down 

All three of them are equally to blame in certain circumstances, however, Jones is the one that picks the team and the formation.  You also forgot that Jones is probably the one to have the final say so on the players coming in.

Nothing lasts forever and should we be in the bottom three by the end of the year, the owners have to close their eyes and press the green button to release the funds for a new manager.

How can you pick a good team and formation when you don’t have a good right winger, or right wing back? Or a progressive midfielder that isn’t an academy player with zero experience. 

There is no good line up with what we have available. That’s the problem. Whatever the formation there is no threat from the right hand side and a midfield that can’t progress the ball.  A new manager won’t change any of that

Jones spent all summer talking about both of those issues and how we wanted quality in to solve them. We wanted Holsgrove in midfield, we got 2 loans and an injury-prone free. We wanted Rak-Sakyi on the right, we got nobody. So clearly there was an issue in either the target identification (Chapple), budget (owners) or getting the deals over the line (Rodwell), otherwise Jones would have filled those 2 big holes in the squad like he said he wanted too all summer 

How do you know we wanted Holsgrove?

Was reported by national media and the leading ITK on here. And Jones didn’t deny it when asked which is usually his response. I’d say based on all of that we were definitely in for him 

NabySarr said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

NabySarr said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

NabySarr said:

Garrymanilow said:

MarcusH26 said:

I do think there's a really interesting conversation to be had about the transfer strategy. I get bringing in champ experience on frees in Danny Mac and Grant because that's something that showed in January with the arrivals of Clarke and Dykes that having that experience and knowledge of the level was invaluable to have. Mesik looks like an absolute steal at £500k same with Billy K at a similar fee - I imagine we were probably also watching Luke Graham at the same time at Dundee and couldn't compete with Stoke for him. 

Midfield is the puzzling one. Chalobah is made of glass but everyone in the game knows that so it was always going to be when he got injured not if. Skipp feels like a panic loan signing on deadline day which fits more in with some of the deadline day messes under previous owners. 

It's clear we tried for Holsgrove and maybe we try again in January but I don't really see the similarities between Holsgrove as this more technical deep lying playmaker and ending up with Ouma who on YouTube looked far more like the type of physical CM NJ has had most places he's been. 

Alli I don't fully understand the signing unless at some stage there was some serious chance TC was actually going? 

I guess coming into the summer I was expecting all this talk of quartiles and stuff from Carter to translate into getting the chequebook out a couple of times for serious quality. Maybe the taps have been turned off and the budget cut because some of the investors want out , I doubt we'll ever truly know. 

McNamara made sense as a backup RB in a 4. The problem was Ramsay got injured (again) and by the time he came back we'd tortoised back into a 5 with Ramsay playing centre back. McNamara should not have played 12 games already this season. Grant was a smart signing on a free and we accepted a bid for TC so I think we were genuinely willing to let him go if he didn't want to sign a new deal. We did well in filling in spaces that needed some improvement but we somehow managed to avoid some of the most glaring ones; backup RB, new keeper, replacement for Gillesphey, competition for Edwards, winger to compete with/rest TC now that we're playing with wingers. All important in their own way but mostly focused on cover or slight improvement in areas where we were already strong or could have continued on without a first team replacement.

Where we were really looking for serious improvement though was central midfield, on the right wing and up front and we didn't properly address almost any of that. We needed competition for Coventry with Coady gone, which we've got but aren't using as it. The most important piece was a more progressive midfielder to replace Docherty. Chalobah was fine as the rotation option there given his injury history but our biggest signing needed to be there and we ended up with Ouma which has been disastrous. We needed a right winger, ideally two given the Apter situation, and we got none. Obviously the JRS situation was unexpected but it feels like we went a little early on Alli to act as backup to Grant on the left assuming TC was gone. We also needed to get a striker in to replace Dykes. Even though we were going from two strikers to one we only had a very injured Godden, an injury prone Leaburn and what now looks like an injury prone Kelman. Given Godden's age and the others' fitness a 4th striker was important and instead we've just promoted Mbick who doesn't look ready. To need to do something in those 4 positions and only have signed a player in one, and that being the least needy, is slightly insane. I love Koumetio but I also would have been fine with Bell at LCB. Not getting in a right winger even after JRS fell through was bizarre

All very good points, but in the context of the should Jones be sacked conversation, it was clear he wanted to address those areas this summer from pretty much every time he spoke about the summer window that he wanted more quality in midfield to give us more control, and a right sided attacking player. He didn’t get either of those, so the questions, blame and criticism should be aimed above Jones 

Part of our issue is we don’t know where to aim that, whether it is Rodwell or Chapple or the owners, so instead it is aimed at Jones who imo has been let down 

All three of them are equally to blame in certain circumstances, however, Jones is the one that picks the team and the formation.  You also forgot that Jones is probably the one to have the final say so on the players coming in.

Nothing lasts forever and should we be in the bottom three by the end of the year, the owners have to close their eyes and press the green button to release the funds for a new manager.

How can you pick a good team and formation when you don’t have a good right winger, or right wing back? Or a progressive midfielder that isn’t an academy player with zero experience. 

There is no good line up with what we have available. That’s the problem. Whatever the formation there is no threat from the right hand side and a midfield that can’t progress the ball.  A new manager won’t change any of that

Jones spent all summer talking about both of those issues and how we wanted quality in to solve them. We wanted Holsgrove in midfield, we got 2 loans and an injury-prone free. We wanted Rak-Sakyi on the right, we got nobody. So clearly there was an issue in either the target identification (Chapple), budget (owners) or getting the deals over the line (Rodwell), otherwise Jones would have filled those 2 big holes in the squad like he said he wanted too all summer 

How do you know we wanted Holsgrove?

Was reported by national media and the leading ITK on here. And Jones didn’t deny it when asked which is usually his response. I’d say based on all of that we were definitely in for him 

His stats look impressive.

The other issue I have notcied is how SLOWLY we pace our passes. Every pass seems underhit. Lke the ball is running in treacle.

Other teams seem to ping the ball into each others feet.

We literally roll it soooooooo slowly between our defenders and when playing out. No wonder we get closed down so quickly.

Why cant our players literally fire the ball into feet with pace and purpose?

DamoNorthStand said:

The other issue I have notcied is how SLOWLY we pace our passes. Every pass seems underhit. Lke the ball is running in treacle.

Other teams seem to ping the ball into each others feet.

We literally roll it soooooooo slowly between our defenders and when playing out. No wonder we get closed down so quickly.

Why cant our players literally fire the ball into feet with pace and purpose?

And also at or behind people, literally never into the space in front. I'm not even talking about through balls, just if CB is playing to LWB, pass it so he collects it facing forwards, not facing back towards our goal. Every pass invites them to turn back, so by the time they look forward (if they do at all) the press is on them