[quote][cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]For the record, I don't have a problem with a referendum on leaving the EU, although the Lib Dems are offering it because they know they will never be in power to stage it and to avoid the issues around the treaty. They are and always have been more pro the EU than any other party,
A referendum on the treaty would for many people be a proxy for staying in or getting out, but satisfactory to no one because the issues aren't susceptible to a single yes or no answer. For exampe, the treaty sets out a mechanism for leaving the EU for the first time, but anti-EU people would be voting against this innovation if they voted against the treaty. They'd be opposing the mechanism they want to use.
Personally, I think it's pie in the sky to think we could ever leave the EU, which is why I think the antis would lose a referendum on leaving, but I'd be happy to have one. Not that the antis would accept the result even then, of course.[/quote]
You are being a little disingenous Rick.
Those of us that wish the UK to remain a sovereign state are hardly likely to accept a withdrawal strategy based on qualified majority voting in the European Council.
http://alfredtheordinary.co.uk/?p=7#more-7
I suggest that EU, rather than British interests, would be served by such a strategy.
How is it that despite the UK paying gross contributions of £14 billion a year (net £10 billion a year we are always shafted by the EU?
Why? You would be taking away my freedom not to vote if don't like any of the candidates or just don't have any interest or faith in the electoral process. And if I don't vote what then? A fine? And if I don't pay the fine? Prison? So now I'm inside because my right not to vote has been taken away from me.
Vote for the right not to vote ; - )
For the record I always vote because liberal democracy, for all its flaws, is one of the things that made and makes this country so great. I would prefer a "none of the above option" on every ballot paper.
No Ben, if you don't want to vote you go and spoil your paper, that would still count as voting.
The problem we have are people that are too god damned lazy to get of their backsides and walk down the polling station.
When I did canvasing for my Dad people actually said "I'd happily vote for him if you could give me a lift to the polling station" unbelievable, the amount of people that shocked me over those few weeks was appauling. The worst of the lot was "Why should I vote, it's not like it affects me"
[cite]Posted By: Stu of SE7[/cite]No Ben, if you don't want to vote you go and spoil your paper, that would still count as voting.
The problem we have are people that are too god damned lazy to get of their backsides and walk down the polling station.
When I did canvasing for my Dad people actually said "I'd happily vote for him if you could give me a lift to the polling station" unbelievable, the amount of people that shocked me over those few weeks was appauling. The worst of the lot was "Why should I vote, it's not like it affects me"
But what if Charlton are playing that day or I just don't want to vote for whatever reason. Why should I have to go and spoil my ballot at all?
If I forget or am busy at work and don't vote do I still get fined.
The whole point is that I have a choice whether to vote or not. Pretty silly in my mind if don't but that is their choice. Making people vote will not make them take a more considered view or make them interested in politics, local or national.
Difference of opinions Ben, in my opinion the option to not vote shouldnt exist, it should be something that has to be done, I've been brought up around policits my entire life, it's something I feel quite strongly about. In this day and age of postal voting there is no such thing as being busy.
If someone honestly believes there is no one they want to vote for, then do something pro active about it, don't vote for anyone, that's not the same as not voting.
Sadly a lot of people don't vote down to sheer lazyness, I've seen it first hand when people have told me so whilst I'm at there door step.
[cite]Posted By: Stu of SE7[/cite]Difference of opinions Ben, in my opinion the option to not vote shouldnt exist, it should be something that has to be done, I've been brought up around policits my entire life, it's something I feel quite strongly about. In this day and age of postal voting there is no such thing as being busy.
If someone honestly believes there is no one they want to vote for, then do something pro active about it, don't vote for anyone, that's not the same as not voting.
Sadly a lot of people don't vote down to sheer lazyness, I've seen it first hand when people have told me so whilst I'm at there door step.
As I said then put a "none of the above option" on the ballot so I can make a statement that none of the candidates represent me rather than just having a spoilt ballot.
you are interested in politics. Many others are not. Educate and inform them don't force them, with threats of punishement, to take part in a process with which they do not agree.
My right to not vote is as important as my right to vote otherwise you will be putting people in jail for not voting. That is the consequence of such a law.
I agree entirely that the right not to vote is as important but as far as I'm concerned not voting does not mean doing nothing, spoil the paper. Yes, the 'none of the above' option would be excellent, I can think of atleast one occasion I would have used that when I lived in Lewisham, fortunately I was too young to vote.
Come to think of it I nearly didn't vote at the last general election as about a week or so before polling day I got completely fed up with it - I live in one of the five out of six safe labour seats in Sheffield and none of the other candidates seemed very approachable. Also most of these websites where you enter your postcode to find your MP have such poorly written algorithms. I enter my postcode and it either gets it wrong (i.e. Nick Clegg when my actual MP is Richard Caborn) or comes up with the error "This may be because your postcode lies close to a constituency boundary". It actually crosses a constituency boundary.
ever wondered Henry why every aspect of our lives now is controled by the "nanny state" but u have the "freedom" not to vote ? Postal vtes etc etc its not that hard to do . Millions dont have the basic right to vote. A spoilt ballot isnt really spoilt as it has to be agreed by the candidates so u get a choice even if u dont like any on the paper.
Im old enough to remember the bollo* that they stuffed down peoples throats about the EU when we voted to go in. It was supposed to cost us big money at first then level off and then we benefit. That will never ever happen.We will always pay the most or the seecond highest as the EU State gets bigger. Why though with all the people coming into the UK cant we ask for assistance re costs i.e health , education, maternity and translation services. They want open boarders but gave no thought of the impact on services of the hoast nations.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]ever wondered Henry why every aspect of our lives now is controled by the "nanny state" but u have the "freedom" not to vote ? Postal vtes etc etc its not that hard to do . Millions dont have the basic right to vote. A spoilt ballot isnt really spoilt as it has to be agreed by the candidates so u get a choice even if u dont like any on the paper.
Im old enough to remember the bollo* that they stuffed down peoples throats about the EU when we voted to go in. It was supposed to cost us big money at first then level off and then we benefit. That will never ever happen.We will always pay the most or the seecond highest as the EU State gets bigger. Why though with all the people coming into the UK cant we ask for assistance re costs i.e health , education, maternity and translation services. They want open boarders but gave no thought of the impact on services of the hoast nations.
This was meant to be a thread about a Charlton fan standing for election and whether voting should be compulsory.
F*** knows how you twisted that into another tedious rant about immigration but that's what you do so why should I be surprised. Maybe if you keep it up for long enough one person will convert to whatever party it is your support these days. Remind which one it is.
That you think compulsory voting is a good idea, and I note that you've not countered any of my arguments or backed up any of Stu's points, only makes be believe even more that I'm right on this.
In the 60s my parents put up a poster in their window during an election as, despite being very interested in politics they didn't feel any of the parties represented them.
The poster read "vote for Guy Fawkes - the only man who went to parliament intending to keep his promises"
And no GH they weren't Fenians or terrorists. It was a joke.
GH have you ever stopped to wonder why people want to come here to work? Maybe because it's actually a decent place to want to be. We should look up and celebrate this not cast our eyes down towards xenophobia. Our country is the in the top five economies of the world and many of the migrant workers coming over here from the EU are prepared to do jobs that indigenous workers are not. The USA which you appear to hold so dear has built it's whole raison d'etre and state on immigration from all parts of the world
The EU has been a huge success story and our country has benefited from membership, despite the argument about contributions. As a trading nation, our economy jobs etc has derived huge advantages of being a major EU player. I worked for a Japanese owned Computer company a few years ago.I There is no doubt that they would not have invested in the company I worked for, but for the fact that is was an EU company and gave them direct access.
In my view there should be a referendum on our continued membership of the EU. This matter has to be put to bed once and for all, pro or anti. If we do have one (which doesn't look likely), I for one will be out on the hustings urging my fellow voters to vote to stay in. It would be economic madness to leave. We will still need to trade with the EU, one of the worlds largest single markets yet have no influence on shaping policy for that market. We will suffer the environmental influences of the EU nations on our doorstep but be powerless to stop them.
As for Rick, I wish him well, its easy to knock people who stand, whatever party that may be but a democracy needs people who give up their time to offer choice to the electorate.
"another tedious rant about imigration" nice one that Henry thanks. i never started the topic on the EU or did i say anything negative about imigration i said why cant we ask the EU for money to assist. seems like a good idea to me.
VOTV and The Valley Party were 2 of the best things done by any supporter(S) for any club. The fact that Rick Everitt is a member of the Labour Party and active etc may also help with Greenwich and issues we have had or have.On the other had is it right for the clubs Communications manager to be an active member of a political party ? can he be objective ? does that fact matter at all ?
Xenophobia please dont ever say that to me. Im supposed to be a racist but people can slag off the yanks thats not racist. As for the USA yes i lived there 4 over 4 months. Worked for a Yank company for 4 years.Do i think they walk on water hell no, but 1000% better than some of the shit states out there. Beenin a mixed marriage for 15 years, lived in the far east for 3 years, been a member of the labour Party (and remember what clause 4 was ) also been a shop steward, and followed this club for 42 years.I will have my opinion and thats that, i dont claim to be correct (not all the time), as others will have theres.
It seems impossible for Europhiles to debate this subject without playing the "racist" or xenophobia card.
I'd like a Europhile to answer the following questions without resorting to personal insults.
1. The UK is a net importer from the rest of the EU and as the 4th/5th largest economy in the world one of its main customers.
If we were to withdraw would they really want to punish one of their biggest customers? It is indeed possible that we could import those same goods more cheaply from outside the EU and thus reduce our balance of payments deficit and also inflationary pressures.
2. What benefits do we get from paying more than we receive (£14billion gross £10 billion net using the Goverment's own figures not forgetting the hidden compliance costs of often unecessary bureaucratic EU legilation) at a time our own elderly people (yours or my parents) are left to die in hospital wards in their own faeces because of "lack of resources?" Not to mention other underfunded areas of British life.
3. Why is it racist to expect ones own country to have control over it's borders? We cannot deport immigrants from other EU countries even if they are surplus to our economic requirements?
4. Why are Europhiles so eager to hand over the sovereignty of our great country to an unelected European Commission in Brussels?
5. Why isn't it more broadly publicised that the BBC has compromised it's independence by accepting loans from the EU financed European Investment Bank?
6. Why if the "European Dream" is so wonderful do Europhiles fear democratic process and indeed ignore the democratic will of individual EU countries by holding repeat referendums until they come up with the "right" answer?
7. Why do our political classes want to make Westminster MPs, our supposed democratically elected representatives, about as powerful as the Parish Council on the TV programme The Vicar of Dibley?
Forcing a Superstate on the people of Europe by underhand, undemocratic means will lead to War just as happened in Yugoslavia. It is our children and grandchildren who will have to fight this war unless the Europhile zealots are stopped by the peaceable democratic means that they fear so much.
There's plenty I disagree with Goonerhater on but to call him racist and xenophobic for expressing perfectly legitimate concerns is patronising and condescending.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite] Im supposed to be a racist but people can slag off the yanks thats not racist. As for the USA yes i lived there 4 over 4 months. Worked for a Yank company for 4 years.Do i think they walk on water hell no, but 1000% better than some of the shit states out there.
I am extremely pro USA and will never forget the fact that, were it not for the Yanks, we might be speaking German now, or worse still, have been wiped off the face of the earth by the Nazi H bomb which was two years away from being a reality (and a delivery system with which to launch it at us). Sometimes I think that some of our French neighbours could do well remember that.
I am critical of our European partners half-hearted approach to defence. That said I am very clear that our future remains in the EU. We may not win all the arguments but the enlargement process which has taken place in recent years has balanced the EU much more in our favour than the Franco-German axis which prevailed at the time we entered.
Perhaps I was wrong to use the "x" word in my previous post although it wasn't a direct insult but I can see how it could have been read as such. If it caused offence, I apologise. I don't know you from Adam, and what binds us all together on here is our love of the Addicks so lets move on and get behind the boys tomorrow.
Comments
A referendum on the treaty would for many people be a proxy for staying in or getting out, but satisfactory to no one because the issues aren't susceptible to a single yes or no answer. For exampe, the treaty sets out a mechanism for leaving the EU for the first time, but anti-EU people would be voting against this innovation if they voted against the treaty. They'd be opposing the mechanism they want to use.
Personally, I think it's pie in the sky to think we could ever leave the EU, which is why I think the antis would lose a referendum on leaving, but I'd be happy to have one. Not that the antis would accept the result even then, of course.[/quote]
You are being a little disingenous Rick.
Those of us that wish the UK to remain a sovereign state are hardly likely to accept a withdrawal strategy based on qualified majority voting in the European Council.
http://alfredtheordinary.co.uk/?p=7#more-7
I suggest that EU, rather than British interests, would be served by such a strategy.
How is it that despite the UK paying gross contributions of £14 billion a year (net £10 billion a year we are always shafted by the EU?
Why? You would be taking away my freedom not to vote if don't like any of the candidates or just don't have any interest or faith in the electoral process. And if I don't vote what then? A fine? And if I don't pay the fine? Prison? So now I'm inside because my right not to vote has been taken away from me.
Vote for the right not to vote ; - )
For the record I always vote because liberal democracy, for all its flaws, is one of the things that made and makes this country so great. I would prefer a "none of the above option" on every ballot paper.
The problem we have are people that are too god damned lazy to get of their backsides and walk down the polling station.
When I did canvasing for my Dad people actually said "I'd happily vote for him if you could give me a lift to the polling station" unbelievable, the amount of people that shocked me over those few weeks was appauling. The worst of the lot was "Why should I vote, it's not like it affects me"
But what if Charlton are playing that day or I just don't want to vote for whatever reason. Why should I have to go and spoil my ballot at all?
If I forget or am busy at work and don't vote do I still get fined.
The whole point is that I have a choice whether to vote or not. Pretty silly in my mind if don't but that is their choice. Making people vote will not make them take a more considered view or make them interested in politics, local or national.
If someone honestly believes there is no one they want to vote for, then do something pro active about it, don't vote for anyone, that's not the same as not voting.
Sadly a lot of people don't vote down to sheer lazyness, I've seen it first hand when people have told me so whilst I'm at there door step.
Westminster MPs will be like local councillors are now. The real Government will be the unelected lot in Brussels.
As I said then put a "none of the above option" on the ballot so I can make a statement that none of the candidates represent me rather than just having a spoilt ballot.
you are interested in politics. Many others are not. Educate and inform them don't force them, with threats of punishement, to take part in a process with which they do not agree.
My right to not vote is as important as my right to vote otherwise you will be putting people in jail for not voting. That is the consequence of such a law.
very true
would it really?
And if it is the case than extreame or joke parties would win then surely that proves my point that forced voting is a bad thing.
No it wouldnt, that was meant in jest.
or e-voting (which was being piloted in last year's sheffield local elections), though not trusting it myself I walked to the polling station.
Im old enough to remember the bollo* that they stuffed down peoples throats about the EU when we voted to go in. It was supposed to cost us big money at first then level off and then we benefit. That will never ever happen.We will always pay the most or the seecond highest as the EU State gets bigger. Why though with all the people coming into the UK cant we ask for assistance re costs i.e health , education, maternity and translation services. They want open boarders but gave no thought of the impact on services of the hoast nations.
This was meant to be a thread about a Charlton fan standing for election and whether voting should be compulsory.
F*** knows how you twisted that into another tedious rant about immigration but that's what you do so why should I be surprised. Maybe if you keep it up for long enough one person will convert to whatever party it is your support these days. Remind which one it is.
That you think compulsory voting is a good idea, and I note that you've not countered any of my arguments or backed up any of Stu's points, only makes be believe even more that I'm right on this.
In the 60s my parents put up a poster in their window during an election as, despite being very interested in politics they didn't feel any of the parties represented them.
The poster read "vote for Guy Fawkes - the only man who went to parliament intending to keep his promises"
And no GH they weren't Fenians or terrorists. It was a joke.
The EU has been a huge success story and our country has benefited from membership, despite the argument about contributions. As a trading nation, our economy jobs etc has derived huge advantages of being a major EU player. I worked for a Japanese owned Computer company a few years ago.I There is no doubt that they would not have invested in the company I worked for, but for the fact that is was an EU company and gave them direct access.
In my view there should be a referendum on our continued membership of the EU. This matter has to be put to bed once and for all, pro or anti. If we do have one (which doesn't look likely), I for one will be out on the hustings urging my fellow voters to vote to stay in. It would be economic madness to leave. We will still need to trade with the EU, one of the worlds largest single markets yet have no influence on shaping policy for that market. We will suffer the environmental influences of the EU nations on our doorstep but be powerless to stop them.
As for Rick, I wish him well, its easy to knock people who stand, whatever party that may be but a democracy needs people who give up their time to offer choice to the electorate.
VOTV and The Valley Party were 2 of the best things done by any supporter(S) for any club. The fact that Rick Everitt is a member of the Labour Party and active etc may also help with Greenwich and issues we have had or have.On the other had is it right for the clubs Communications manager to be an active member of a political party ? can he be objective ? does that fact matter at all ?
Best wishes to Rick.
Beenin a mixed marriage for 15 years, lived in the far east for 3 years, been a member of the labour Party (and remember what clause 4 was ) also been a shop steward, and followed this club for 42 years.I will have my opinion and thats that, i dont claim to be correct (not all the time), as others will have theres.
I'd like a Europhile to answer the following questions without resorting to personal insults.
1. The UK is a net importer from the rest of the EU and as the 4th/5th largest economy in the world one of its main customers.
If we were to withdraw would they really want to punish one of their biggest customers? It is indeed possible that we could import those same goods more cheaply from outside the EU and thus reduce our balance of payments deficit and also inflationary pressures.
2. What benefits do we get from paying more than we receive (£14billion gross £10 billion net using the Goverment's own figures not forgetting the hidden compliance costs of often unecessary bureaucratic EU legilation) at a time our own elderly people (yours or my parents) are left to die in hospital wards in their own faeces because of "lack of resources?" Not to mention other underfunded areas of British life.
3. Why is it racist to expect ones own country to have control over it's borders? We cannot deport immigrants from other EU countries even if they are surplus to our economic requirements?
4. Why are Europhiles so eager to hand over the sovereignty of our great country to an unelected European Commission in Brussels?
5. Why isn't it more broadly publicised that the BBC has compromised it's independence by accepting loans from the EU financed European Investment Bank?
6. Why if the "European Dream" is so wonderful do Europhiles fear democratic process and indeed ignore the democratic will of individual EU countries by holding repeat referendums until they come up with the "right" answer?
7. Why do our political classes want to make Westminster MPs, our supposed democratically elected representatives, about as powerful as the Parish Council on the TV programme The Vicar of Dibley?
Forcing a Superstate on the people of Europe by underhand, undemocratic means will lead to War just as happened in Yugoslavia. It is our children and grandchildren who will have to fight this war unless the Europhile zealots are stopped by the peaceable democratic means that they fear so much.
There's plenty I disagree with Goonerhater on but to call him racist and xenophobic for expressing perfectly legitimate concerns is patronising and condescending.
I am extremely pro USA and will never forget the fact that, were it not for the Yanks, we might be speaking German now, or worse still, have been wiped off the face of the earth by the Nazi H bomb which was two years away from being a reality (and a delivery system with which to launch it at us). Sometimes I think that some of our French neighbours could do well remember that.
I am critical of our European partners half-hearted approach to defence. That said I am very clear that our future remains in the EU. We may not win all the arguments but the enlargement process which has taken place in recent years has balanced the EU much more in our favour than the Franco-German axis which prevailed at the time we entered.
Perhaps I was wrong to use the "x" word in my previous post although it wasn't a direct insult but I can see how it could have been read as such. If it caused offence, I apologise. I don't know you from Adam, and what binds us all together on here is our love of the Addicks so lets move on and get behind the boys tomorrow.
It's Charlton fans talking about politics.
Will the last one left turn the bleedin light out!
Sir Edward Grey Foreign Secretary August 4 1914