I dealt with the xenophobia remark in my reply to Goonerhater. I could spend the next few hours debating why the points you make are not xenophobic and the way that some people express their anti-europeanness is but it's going to bore everybody to tears.
As regards the points you make
1. We will cease to be the world 4th/5th largest economy if we leave and investors in our economy from outside the EU will just relocate/move inside the EU zone. Why take that enormous gamble? It won't take much to send our economy crashing to the ground. This "we could import from elsewhere" in my view is pie in the sky. We are a huge trading nation now and we import much from outside the EU, what makes you think that we could just lose the EU ones and regain them, elsewhere, especially with China going round the world buying everything up that isn't nailed down at the moment? Being part of a huge trading block allows us to go head to head with the other large trading blocks and safeguards supplies.
2. Fine lets slash our defence budget, stop giving money out to developing nations etc. That'll save some money. Our contribution may be too high but in total the EU economy has benefited from our contribution and enlarged the market in consquence which has been good for our economy. The taxes collected from economic activity go to pay for the NHS, schools etc.
3. It isn't racist to want control over our own borders, I've not heard anybody seriously suggesting that it was - certainly not me. I have spent much time in business in Scandinavia. The Nordic countries have had free movement between themselves for years. It is seen as a friendly expression which encourages harmony not discord. I have no problem about the freedom of movement for the EU. Here again for many on the continent it is the politcal "price" worth paying to avoid the problems of nations being split by borders prior to the Second World War. There is a serious issue in respect of outer EU borders which needs to be addressed. As far as I am aware though, we have control of our borders anyway so why the beef?
4. The EU is a pooling of sovereignty. It depends on which side of the argument you are. I would argue that the benefits, economically, geo-politically and environmentally are worth the pooling.
5. Maybe true but hardly a reason for dumping the EU or the treaty though I would have thought
6. Unlike the Europhobes who won't accept that they lost the argument in 1975 and have being trying to find reasons why we should have another referendum ever since?
7. Me, I'm a federalist. I believe that decisions that affect us should be taken as close to us as possible. I believe that pan-european decisions should be taken at a EU level but as little as possible should be taken there and as much as possible taken at a nation state level or lower. In UK terms that means a federal UK with an English, Scottish. Welsh and NI parliaments as well as a UK one for Pan UK decisions like defence. I believe in local democracy which engages people to influence their own lives and that of their neigbours. Personally I detest the centralist tendancies of Labour and the Tories. Federalism means to me bringing power down to the people as much as possible.
Your penultimate point whilst in my view a bit over the top, is at least something I broadly agree with. Despite the original referendum, I think it's time we faced up to the need for another. Lets have one now and put these arguments - legitimate on both sides to the people and let them decide.
I have dealt with your final point as it affects what I said. I wasn't being patronising.
Len, I'm not one for politics but I must say your post held my attention. No offence to Bing but I found Lens hit the spot slightly quicker.
Before anyone gets upset I thought I'd throw my ten cents in. I feel that the right to vote should be impressed on those under 35 slightly more than it currently is. I feel it is a real disrespectful swipe at previous generations who have fought for the right for some to be so lazy. Also This is a football/Charlton board and politics doesn't really belong full stop in my eyes but this thread was started about a Charlton man and descended into a political jobby, even so it's stirred some interest and sensible talk.
If anyone gives a monkies my view is that politicians cannot be trusted as far as they can be spat, but if one or more politician is prepared to prove this sceptic wrong they are welcome to be my guest.
[cite]Posted By: Oakster[/cite]Can anyone name the prime minister of Canada - without googling it?
Nope, thought not!
If you asked people to name the prime minister of any of the EU countries (UK apart) we would sturggle to come up with any. This includes me, I couldn't name one.
Alberta elected it's 11th straight conservative provincial government today - this is the probably one of the most right-wing places on the planet!
But Oakster, not knowing anything about Canadian politics, has it been a good thing or a bad thing.
you guys are good but ashamedly i havent the foggiest of what or where you get your info and now i feel as if i am just to stooopid to vote cos i only vote on those that are promising to give us the best schools police and lowest fuel, council tax
Thank you for your response. As you yourself also stated there is a lot more we both could say but I'm only too aware of AFKA in his U-Boat waiting to torpedo this thread:-)
I'll just conclude firstly by stating that nobody under the age of 50 has had the chance to vote on the EU in a Referendum and those over 50 were deceived into believing that they were voting for something very different back in 1975. I'm proud to say I voted NO back then though! It is therefore good that we can agree that democracy dictates that we should have a referendum.
Secondly, for anybody with an interest in this subject, this website is often thought provoking and educational.
[cite]Posted By: AFKA Bartram[/cite]More importantly, would Rick still be able to stay on as Stadium Manager if he got elected ?
:-)
As long as he declared in the House register of interests I don't see why not.
But I think he is Operations Director these days. It's Ketman's brother who is club Development manager these days or am I mixing them up with Wendy Perfect?
[cite]Posted By: Carter[/cite]After him cupping my nuts on the dancefloor of Walkabouts the other weekend I'd say there could be a relation to Kenny ;-)
If he behaves like that he sounds ideally qualified to work for an MP :-)
Yes thanks Suze! I didnt wet myself actually I just didnt shake...;-)
Like Flashback eh Thommo? Well nearly right...It was the driver's fault actually
"If the people who are holding the door open in Carriage XX would close it we could get going".....Cue me hurrying, not shaking properly and then an afternoon of pisstake....
Anyway back to Kets & his Dad....You never know P. It could be a launching pad for the DJing career. No more pubs...You could do the Labour Party conference!
I don't vote through choice, not laziness. In fact, I resent the insinuation that because I am yet to find any politician or party worthy of exercising my right to vote - a right that has been hard fought for over the years - I am in some way lazy, idle, thick or besmirching those who fought and won this right for us all.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]"another tedious rant about imigration" nice one that Henry thanks. i never started the topic on the EU or did i say anything negative about imigration i said why cant we ask the EU for money to assist. seems like a good idea to me.
VOTV and The Valley Party were 2 of the best things done by any supporter(S) for any club. The fact that Rick Everitt is a member of the Labour Party and active etc may also help with Greenwich and issues we have had or have.On the other had is it right for the clubs Communications manager to be an active member of a political party ? can he be objective ? does that fact matter at all ?[/quote]
Point of order - I haven't been Charlton's communications manager since 2002, but the club can't bar its employees from political activity anyway, especially outside Greenwich.
Comments
seconded - and i study European Union Law! I'm supposed to be being indoctrinated ;-)
I dealt with the xenophobia remark in my reply to Goonerhater. I could spend the next few hours debating why the points you make are not xenophobic and the way that some people express their anti-europeanness is but it's going to bore everybody to tears.
As regards the points you make
1. We will cease to be the world 4th/5th largest economy if we leave and investors in our economy from outside the EU will just relocate/move inside the EU zone. Why take that enormous gamble? It won't take much to send our economy crashing to the ground. This "we could import from elsewhere" in my view is pie in the sky. We are a huge trading nation now and we import much from outside the EU, what makes you think that we could just lose the EU ones and regain them, elsewhere, especially with China going round the world buying everything up that isn't nailed down at the moment? Being part of a huge trading block allows us to go head to head with the other large trading blocks and safeguards supplies.
2. Fine lets slash our defence budget, stop giving money out to developing nations etc. That'll save some money. Our contribution may be too high but in total the EU economy has benefited from our contribution and enlarged the market in consquence which has been good for our economy. The taxes collected from economic activity go to pay for the NHS, schools etc.
3. It isn't racist to want control over our own borders, I've not heard anybody seriously suggesting that it was - certainly not me. I have spent much time in business in Scandinavia. The Nordic countries have had free movement between themselves for years. It is seen as a friendly expression which encourages harmony not discord. I have no problem about the freedom of movement for the EU. Here again for many on the continent it is the politcal "price" worth paying to avoid the problems of nations being split by borders prior to the Second World War. There is a serious issue in respect of outer EU borders which needs to be addressed. As far as I am aware though, we have control of our borders anyway so why the beef?
4. The EU is a pooling of sovereignty. It depends on which side of the argument you are. I would argue that the benefits, economically, geo-politically and environmentally are worth the pooling.
5. Maybe true but hardly a reason for dumping the EU or the treaty though I would have thought
6. Unlike the Europhobes who won't accept that they lost the argument in 1975 and have being trying to find reasons why we should have another referendum ever since?
7. Me, I'm a federalist. I believe that decisions that affect us should be taken as close to us as possible. I believe that pan-european decisions should be taken at a EU level but as little as possible should be taken there and as much as possible taken at a nation state level or lower. In UK terms that means a federal UK with an English, Scottish. Welsh and NI parliaments as well as a UK one for Pan UK decisions like defence. I believe in local democracy which engages people to influence their own lives and that of their neigbours. Personally I detest the centralist tendancies of Labour and the Tories. Federalism means to me bringing power down to the people as much as possible.
Your penultimate point whilst in my view a bit over the top, is at least something I broadly agree with. Despite the original referendum, I think it's time we faced up to the need for another. Lets have one now and put these arguments - legitimate on both sides to the people and let them decide.
I have dealt with your final point as it affects what I said. I wasn't being patronising.
Before anyone gets upset I thought I'd throw my ten cents in. I feel that the right to vote should be impressed on those under 35 slightly more than it currently is. I feel it is a real disrespectful swipe at previous generations who have fought for the right for some to be so lazy. Also This is a football/Charlton board and politics doesn't really belong full stop in my eyes but this thread was started about a Charlton man and descended into a political jobby, even so it's stirred some interest and sensible talk.
If anyone gives a monkies my view is that politicians cannot be trusted as far as they can be spat, but if one or more politician is prepared to prove this sceptic wrong they are welcome to be my guest.
No offence taken mate, I've never used one word when ten would suffice!!
Nope, thought not!
Alberta elected it's 11th straight conservative provincial government today - this is the probably one of the most right-wing places on the planet!
But Oakster, not knowing anything about Canadian politics, has it been a good thing or a bad thing.
the sound of all this going right over me noggin
you guys are good but ashamedly i havent the foggiest of what or where you get your info and now i feel as if i am just to stooopid to vote cos i only vote on those that are promising to give us the best schools police and lowest fuel, council tax
Thank you for your response. As you yourself also stated there is a lot more we both could say but I'm only too aware of AFKA in his U-Boat waiting to torpedo this thread:-)
I'll just conclude firstly by stating that nobody under the age of 50 has had the chance to vote on the EU in a Referendum and those over 50 were deceived into believing that they were voting for something very different back in 1975. I'm proud to say I voted NO back then though! It is therefore good that we can agree that democracy dictates that we should have a referendum.
Secondly, for anybody with an interest in this subject, this website is often thought provoking and educational.
http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com/
Once again thanks for your response Bing.
Would anyone here have a major issue with Kets taking a job working for his Dad as a parliamentary assistant when / if he becomes an MP?
CLIRT? You should have missed out the "Rectification" bit mate! ;-)
:-)
As long as he declared in the House register of interests I don't see why not.
But I think he is Operations Director these days. It's Ketman's brother who is club Development manager these days or am I mixing them up with Wendy Perfect?
If he behaves like that he sounds ideally qualified to work for an MP :-)
Im just getting my own back for Wetjeansgate back in Sept ;-)
I don't think Ketters made you wet yourself though!
;-)
Like Flashback eh Thommo? Well nearly right...It was the driver's fault actually
"If the people who are holding the door open in Carriage XX would close it we could get going".....Cue me hurrying, not shaking properly and then an afternoon of pisstake....
Anyway back to Kets & his Dad....You never know P. It could be a launching pad for the DJing career. No more pubs...You could do the Labour Party conference!
Remix D:Ream Things Can Only Get Better perhaps?
"Cue me hurrying, not shaking properly and then an afternoon of pisstake....
An afternoon of pisstake but weeks of pissstain.
VOTV and The Valley Party were 2 of the best things done by any supporter(S) for any club. The fact that Rick Everitt is a member of the Labour Party and active etc may also help with Greenwich and issues we have had or have.On the other had is it right for the clubs Communications manager to be an active member of a political party ? can he be objective ? does that fact matter at all ?[/quote]
Point of order - I haven't been Charlton's communications manager since 2002, but the club can't bar its employees from political activity anyway, especially outside Greenwich.