so as to keep the Jimmy Mizen thread to respectful comments I thought Id start this one.
What can be done about these idiots and the way they behave and why are they doing it . got to be partly down to the parents and partly down to the soft touch of the law.
Defo got worse in the last few years and I really worry about myself now where before I was just worried about the other half . Personally I think giving the police back more allowence to stamp down on these urchins like they used to be able to would be a start.
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I don't think there's any easy answers - a combination of a society that values "respect" and money and status over all else, fathers f*cking off and leaving young lads without role models, lazy political dogma from both left and right, a timid criminal justice system and knackered prisons which just make matters worse.
Last week a lawyer earning £200k a year, public school and Oxbridge educated, married, living in posh flat decides to start firing his shot gun at people. The police, quite rightly in my view, shot him dead. Was it his parents fault?
Also Buckshee you say you are worry more. Is that because it is getting worse or because you are getting a bit older? or maybe a bit of both.
And I'll remind everyone that only a few weeks ago some people were convicted for beating a man into a coma in a street fight and the majority view expressed on here was that the sentances were too harsh and that it was OK as such "fist fights" are a something that happens everywhere every Saturday night.
I know it may be a bit nostalgic but you only have to hear the way kids talk to anyone older than themselves (not just coppers) to see the general lack of respect and yes the ability of not only the police to give a clip round the ear but other adults .
When most of us were younger we were scared stiff that if we mouthed off to an adult we'd get a "clip rouund the ear" and then it would get back to our parents and get more of the same. I probably only got this once or twice but the threat was enough for me not to do it.
Your final paragraph is a beauty Henry, summed up perfectly.
Just cos its getting worse in all honesty , where a few years ago if one of these idiots had have done something to me or mine I'd have felt like I would have the law on my side now I feel like nothing would be done.
Around a year ago I was forced to move from a flat I loved only a couple of minutes from the valley as my upstairs neighbour pulled a 10 inch knife to my throat cos I told him to turn his music down and when the police turned up they did nothing
1. Walk round any supermarket, shopping centre on a Saturday and see the way chav mums shout at their kids and whack them. See police wait with youngsters who have been in trouble for their parents to turn up, then see the parents start screaming at the police, calling them this and that. There is a lot less respect left in society, and i honestly don't know how that changes. I fear it will only get worse in that respect.
2. In the last 30 years that the entertainment industry has made billions from glamourising violence. If films aren't about gangsters and hitman, there will still be some form of murder. The most popular computer games are those that involve killing. Rap music is built around gangsta culture. To me and you, it has no impact, but to others it lends ideas and in the gang terms, seen as encouragement.
Thatcher with her Neo Liberlist ideology started it all ! "No such thing as society only individuals" her quote. This leed to the "loads of money" type attitude ,where it didnt matter who you trod on as long as the dosh rolled in. They said they wanted "family values" yet broke up communities.
Human Rights and its twisted way that we deal with it plays a huge part today. Kids know you cant do or say f**k all to em. Scum bags use this law , which was never there for them really in the first place. Lawyers love it. There is no fear of courts , etc. many never even turn up for trial.
OB, ages back had respect not know. Its their own fault as much as anyone else. The scream short staffed, but the numbers dont add up. They say to much time is spent on paper work, but wont respond to a burglary or car theft if they believe there is no chance of a catch. they look for easy targets, like footie supporters or motorists.
Parents --- easy way is to defend themselves for the behaviour oftheir kids by saying "we cant disaplin them" .
Schools so god dam PC its a sick joke.
Ethnicity plays a part in alot of the gangs re the sence of belonging and heritage.
There has to be a will driven by HM Gov to change and this lot couldnt change a light bulb.
As for "the comminity" coming together to fight it. Wont happen because OB wont let it happen.
Is it better else where ? well taking Thailand for an example a buddist country. We think Buddists are peacefull type dont we ? next time you go take a look at all the bars on the windows of the houses , and the metal doors and also ask yourself why Thais usually have dogs in the house (no they dont eat em thats Korea) ?
Fagins, gangs,skins, mods, punks, teddy boys, hells angels been around for donkeys years. Is it truely any worse ? or just does it feel like it ?
I agree about the parents but sorry about the arguement about films glamourising violence and so leading to violent people doesn't hold up. What films did we watch as kids/teenagers? Love Story or the Godfather, Straw dogs or On golden Pond. Clockwork Orange anyone. 1970 if I remember rightly and that was blamed for copycat violence but it was based on Anthony Burgess's own life when his wife was attacked during WWII.
So either the watching violence = Violence equation doesn't add up or it has always been that way. Their was violence long before films.
*hic*
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And also fairly recently when a few Charlton fans received banning orders after some pre-match aggro there was a chorus of disapproval from some claiming that they'd done nothing wrong, that they loved their mothers and how butter wouldn't melt in their mouths. And dare I mention the Stephen Lawrence murder again with several people claiming that he was up to no good etc?
Crime has always happened and in big cities it has always been more prevalent, that is true the world over, not just London. There are more London Policeman now than ever before (I think their numbers have increased by 10K over the last decade) and the current Labour government has responded by toughening up sentencing criteria - the current prison population is around 80,000 - higher than it has ever been under any government left or right, so it not as though they haven't been tough on crime. But have they been tough on the causes of crime?
My belief is that while government/the State sets the tone there is only so much they can do, environment plays a large part in our make-up - including things like families, friends, peer groups, education and society itself. Undoubtedly over the last couple of decades there are more single parent families and looser family units. This all part of the poverty of aspiration, that there are too many negative role models, kids who have nothing, expect noting and respond with nihilism, because that is all they know.
The answer isn't easy or cheap, and it doesn't lie just in an increased State roll in law enforcement - as above that has been tried and can only do so much, but in everyone appreciating that personal responsibility is the root cause of success and failure in life. As a society I wonder also if we are failing children - where are the apprenticeship schemes and learning a trade type opportunities that used to be available? Shelf-stacking, the dole, or petty crime are not the answers, neither is forcing children to stay longer in education without any apparent purpose, although saying that I'm all for free education and it must be for all, especially if it is vocational.
Here in Germany the problem is anticiapted to a greater degree by streamlining students into schools where they get tuition that is best suited to their needs - the academically gifted go to hochschules, while those who are not destined for university and a white collar job get an education and a job opportunity more suited to their vocational aspirations. If they can't/won't take those opportunities (and plenty don't) then it is their personal choice, but at least there is a greater willingness by the State to find a solution. The British model is stick a plaster over the problem and hope it goes away with the result that we've got a dual society developing, those who want to get on, and those who don't, in which there are too many who are trapped by the system preventing them from escaping their surroundings. Just as tougher sentencing and more police isn't solving the crime problem.
Whatever the answers are, they are not simple, they are complex and don't/shouldn't involve knee-jerk solutions.
I'm no Boris fan, but he's appointed a guy who looks like he's going to try to get under the skin of that issue. It'll be interesting to see how he does - could be an inspired move.
I'd far rather see more young lads in apprenticeships, earning money and self-respect, than staying on in schools/colleges they don't want to be at. I think that's a factor.
Ethnicity plays a part today of course. Thats because many of the urban street gangs are in areas of specific ethnicity. Ihope im wrong but my gut feeling is OB wont release the discription on the young mans attacker is also his ethnicity. Scaum bag is a scug bag surely ?
There is a thing called "moral outrage" which is fueled by the media. "reds under the bed" " nazi thugs" "pedoes on every street" "break down of our way of life". Is it really ? i would like to know the adverage murder rate over the last twenty years. I would bet its in the region on 380/420 per year and has been in that region for the whole time ! The shock is the age of the people dying.
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Yep me too, but manufacturing in the UK has been butchered mercilessly over the last 25 years or so. Look at the stuff we buy - it all comes from Asia and Eastern Europe, places where it's cheap to manufacture. The government solution is either non-jobs, the dole, rhetoric or pay to keep them in education.
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There is always a danger of falling into the nostalgia trap, that believing that crime was less than a year/decade/fifty years ago or whatever time frame you employ.
It's also difficult to find accurate crime stats - from the Guardian a year ago:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/26/ukcrime.immigrationpolicy
Gun crime in England and Wales dropped by 14% last year (i.e. 2006), the murder rate was down by 9% and overall crime has remained broadly stable, according to Home Office figures published yesterday.
But ministers face worrying signs of persistent problems in street crime, with the number of armed street robberies rising by 9% to 1,439 attacks, and increases in drug offences and vandalism....
Overall, they show that the risk of becoming a victim of crime in England and Wales has gone up from 23% to 24% but remains at a historically low level after peaking at 40% in 1995.
The homicide figures show that 766 people were murdered in 2005-06, including the 52 victims of the July 7 London suicide bombings, a fall of 9% on the previous year. This is the third year in succession that the murder rate in England and Wales has fallen.
"These kids get raised in squalor and most of the time they don't have a father and their mother is working three jobs just to make rent so they don't see her either so they don't learn anything from anybody.
"They are raised in areas where they don't know any lawyers, doctors or software developers, these people may as well be from a different planet as far as they are concerned.
"The only people they see making progress in life are the pimps and the drug dealers with their guns and big cars and then we act all surprised when that's what they aim for as well."
anyone that watches Scarface or films of that ilk and then thinks they are a Cuban drug-baron gangster in the making needs to be accomodated in some sort of special facility
But is this true?
Convicted murderers automatically get life sentences, although judges have some leniency over the exact sentence, anyone committing murder should expect to serve the thick end of 20 years, which seems to be the normal tarrif these days. In particularly severe cases, eg the Soham case judges can hand down whole of life sentences.
Why do you think murderers only get four/five year sentences?
There is a fine line between saying "they have no chance and its their society or our society to blame" and just making exsuses for scum bags.
Agree. Poverty is no excuse for violent crime (let's leave the 'would you steal a loaf if you were starving question to the side).
However aspirations are, IMHO, a factor. If you have something to aim for such as a career then you might think twice before getting involved as you have something to lose. You have something else to work towards and a different way to acheive money and status. Been working with some apprentices recently. All seemed well adjusted, monosylabic teenagers who knew that they were onto a good thing. Drop out rate on their 4 yr apprenticeship is nearly zero. because of where they work they may be randomly drink/drug tested so have to be careful when not even at work.
you will still have a hardcore of scum bags who will committ crime just as we always have. You are not going to help them regardless of what you do. You will also have a group who would never commit crime regardless.
The battle is when over the sizable chunk of young and not so young people in the middle who could go either way. Stick is good but carrott also works.
I think that is a very well made point.
I think that is a very well made point.[/quote]
More to the point prison is perhaps the only place they feel normal, an institution that may well be brutal and take their freedom away, but will give them the attention they've been lacking. Plus their jail mates will be like them - and have the same type of background.
If they are to be not locked up for 20 hours aday they need to be cleaning up after the ferrel shite who litter our parks towns and countryside or after every gypsie site moves on send them in to clear it up.
Get a gobby hoodie scum bag who thinks its fine to beat old women and old men for the sake of a fiver because his daddy shagged his mummy and scarpered b4 having the responsibilty to teach him right and wrong and mummy spent her £200 a week on booze fags and gear instead of helping him to understand right from wrong and make him clean the dog shite from the floor or the vomit and poo from the tramps bench everyday and then go back in side for 16 hrs boring lock up.
i get the point that they have no foot in society so prison sentences are little threat to them because they have little to lose from a time inside but the threat of prison should be so fecking scary and harsh that no one would want to go back there.
prison is really only to protect society from any further crimes they may commit rather than a punishment and that is where the system has failed and why because we want to give them rights and help them.
Feck em they lost their right to help and a normal life the minute they did whatever they did.
Carry a knife 5years
carry a gun 10 years
Rape Life (until you die)
Murder (life Until you die)
Peados ( castrated and life Until you die)
so on and so forth
i couldnt give a shit if we had more jails than hospitals doctors and dentists combined if the scum were kept away from me and my family and i knew they were going to get no pleasures from life at all and that includes just being able to wake up go out your front door and walk to the shop because freedom is pleasurable.
Good luck with that one mate!
Some bloke meets girl he goes to far she says no he says yes does it any way
jury believe him not her so does that make it not rape works both ways .
the judge and jury system is not on trial here i believe that it is how we make our streets safer yes there are mis carriages of justice and people get sentanced wrongly they should all be given the right to appeal and as much legal representation as possible.
but the bigger miscarrige of justice is that everyday in this country lives are being ruined by maggots and scum who have no fear for jail
if someone is raped and the correct person caught the victim should know that the perpitrator will never ever ever be released whats wrong with that
Personally I'd string the fcukers up, but luckilly (for some) I don't have that power or responsibility.