in a perfect world we would all do that mate i think the feeling about the violent side of our society could seriously boil over soon and there could be alot of vigilanty style groups sorting out issues in their area. My son has 2 OB kids in his team and their dads have been telling us for ages that in some areas of Harringay drug dealers and runners have been found battered and put into wheeley bins and placed outside OB buildings with scum and shit of the earth wrote on their heads i think normal and pissed off people will respond soon which will be a piss poor inditement of our great country
Mate forget the vigilanty thing and what the OB say in private. If people did this they would be hunted far down by OB in days. The courts would throw the book at em as well.
There have always been ghettos and poverty in the UK , so why has it turned into brutality now ? Why do we make excuses for scum that talk about respect but dont have the basic respect for their fellow humans ?
And why days after this young boys murder are OB still refusing to give a discription of the attacker ?
fuk knows but i just watched his family on the TV and it nearly broke me there has to be an end soon it can not go on like this in Edmonton alone 5 kids have killed eachover since january all of them within 10 mins walk of eachover.
Question is, what do the police do when most of the people perpetrating these crimes are black, yet if they stop and search them proportionately more than white folks (even if they are looking for specific suspects for specific offences) they are accused of racial profiling and forced to stop doing their jobs by tracking down the guilty parties (a guilty person is a guilty person, regardless of colour, surely). It is any wonder that certain sections of society feel they can get away with anything as they are protected by hand wringing liberals who would rather see justice go unserved than admit to a certain 'elephant in the room' as mentioned before...remember a Met Police commissioner was censured for attempting to breach this very subject and though statistics are collected for ethnicity they are not released - so we as a society are scared of facing up to our society as it really is. How can we then have a clue what to do to address the situation?
Let’s stop looking for reasons, criminals do not want to live by the laws that our society lay down. Normal humans do not need to be told murder rape theft etc is wrong. There are no excuses to justify the behavior of the few who make life hard for so many. My solution is build more prisons and keep building them until we either run out of concrete or scum to put inside them. It won’t cure any root problems; it would certainly cost a fortune. On the plus side it would create a few jobs.
[cite]Posted By: pettswoodaddick[/cite]Let’s stop looking for reasons, criminals do not want to live by the laws that our society lay down. Normal humans do not need to be told murder rape theft etc is wrong. There are no excuses to justify the behavior of the few who make life hard for so many.
My solution is build more prisons and keep building them until we either run out of concrete or scum to put inside them. It won’t cure any root problems; it would certainly cost a fortune. On the plus side it would create a few jobs.
If you want everyone to pay a massive increase on their PAYE income tax to pay for the never ending line of penitentiaries and their maintenance costs then that is a wonderful idea.....
As frustrating as crime is there are some hard headed figures to be taken into account, the figures below are from a 2004 Home Office report....
Each UK prisoner costs a staggering £38,753 per year to maintain (that's from 2002 figures, its probably gone up since), that means that if you lock up 10,000 new inmates you are talking about spending UKStg400 million per year to do it.
If that's still OK with you then you will need to build more prisons. The Home Office says that EACH new prison place costs, wait you'll like this, UKStg105,000 to provide (that was based on 2001 figures).
Let's say you want to provide 100,000 NEW prison places to put all these offenders in, that's going to cost you UKStg10.5 billion upfront PLUS an annual upkeep bill for the 100,000 new prisoners of at least UKStg4 billion - that's payable every year.
There is no way that HM government would be able to take on these kinds of costs without significant NEW tax rises - I bet that would go down an absolute storm with some of the punters on here.
Solutions cost money, its as simple as that so people should think of the consequences before offering half-baked solutions.
It seems to me that underlying this violence problem there are a lot of smaller contributory problems. If the smaller problems are tackled effectively I think the stabbings will totally disappear:
Problem: We’ve go have a culture where blokes can father any number of kids by any number of women and constantly move on to the next one, never taking responsibility for their sprogs’ upbringing.
Solution: All fourteen year olds should be given a (temporary) vasectomy. The clip will only be removed when they can prove that: 1. They are in a long term, stable and loving relationship. 2. That they are emotionally stable and can teach their offspring to live, love, laugh and be happy. 3. That they are not crims. 4. That they have the financial wherewithal to pay for their kids’ upkeep. 5. They actually want to have real children and not just a little manikin to hang some bling on.
Problem: The penal system doesn’t teach kids, because the punishment never fits the crime.
Solution: All punishments are designed to fit crime starting from the littlest all the way up. For example littler louts should be forced to pick up litter whilst wearing a Womble suit. Vandals should be made to fix whatever they have broken. Murderers should be forced to watch endless Boyzone videos.
Problem: Everyone who goes to prison comes out a druggie, whether or not they went in one.
Solution: All prisoners are given a weekly drugs test. There is a presumption that all prison sentences are run clean in their entirety. Any hint of drug taking and the sentence is automatically reset.
Problem: There are just too many teenagers with attitude problems.
Solution: It’s easy really because you can spot the ones with bad attitudes a mile off; they are the ones who saunter across the road as if they are the kings forcing traffic to slow down for them (it’s sad really – that’s the only little bit of power they have in their lives). Sad or not, they’d never do it in my regime because all motorists would be given carte-blanche to mow down cocky teenagers.
Problem: We’ve go have a culture where blokes can father any number of kids by any number of women and constantly move on to the next one, never taking responsibility for their sprogs’ upbringing.
Solution: All fourteen year olds should be given a (temporary) vasectomy. The clip will only be removed when they can prove that: 1. They are in a long term, stable and loving relationship. 2. That they are emotionally stable and can teach their offspring to live, love, laugh and be happy. 3. That they are not crims. 4. That they have the financial wherewithal to pay for their kids’ upkeep. 5. They actually want to have real children and not just a little manikin to hang some bling on.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Feckin' hell Harvey, I know what you are saying mate but that's a bit strong isn't it? ALL fourteen year olds? Including your brother/cousin and your OWN kids when they hit 14? I think it would be more effective to really hit deadbeat Dads with penal sentences (seeing as they have no means or intention of paying child support) for abandonment. See how keen they are then to go banging out new runts all over the place.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]But is this true?
Why do you think murderers only get four/five year sentences?
Murderers getting away with a manslaughter conviction, sentenced to anything from 5-10 years (mostly in a cushy detention centre, maybe even less than 5 years), look at some of the recent London Teen cases for plenty of examples.
How is our legal system letting people escape with the fact that using a knife on somebody is not the requisite intention to cause GBH to secure a murder conviction? If you slash someone, you aren't normally doing it for a scratch are you?
[cite]Posted By: pettswoodaddick[/cite]Let’s stop looking for reasons, criminals do not want to live by the laws that our society lay down. Normal humans do not need to be told murder rape theft etc is wrong. There are no excuses to justify the behavior of the few who make life hard for so many.
My solution is build more prisons and keep building them until we either run out of concrete or scum to put inside them. It won’t cure any root problems; it would certainly cost a fortune. On the plus side it would create a few jobs.
If you want everyone to pay a massive increase on their PAYE income tax to pay for the never ending line of penitentiaries and their maintenance costs then that is a wonderful idea.....
As frustrating as crime is there are some hard headed figures to be taken into account, the figures below are from a 2004 Home Office report....
Each UK prisoner costs a staggering £38,753 per year to maintain (that's from 2002 figures, its probably gone up since), that means that if you lock up 10,000 new inmates you are talking about spending UKStg400 million per year to do it.
If that's still OK with you then you will need to build more prisons. The Home Office says that EACH new prison place costs, wait you'll like this, UKStg105,000 to provide (that was based on 2001 figures).
Let's say you want to provide 100,000 NEW prison places to put all these offenders in, that's going to cost you UKStg10.5 billion upfront PLUS an annual upkeep bill for the 100,000 new prisoners of at least UKStg4 billion - that's payable every year.
There is no way that HM government would be able to take on these kinds of costs without significant NEW tax rises - I bet that would go down an absolute storm with some of the punters on here.
Solutions cost money, its as simple as that so people should think of the consequences before offering half-baked solutions.
Perhaps we should look at why it costs £38,753 per year in this country. I dont doubt your figures, something is very wrong somewhere.
Ormy yes it would cost millions and yes no one would be happy to pay loads in increased PAYE but does that mean we reduce sentancing rather than increase it because of cost or do we stop wasting the millions and millions of pounds on government expenses and trim down the government departments with too many people in them that dont need to be there and then stop entering into Wars that have no end in site (for info i support our troops 100% i just have my beliefs on the validity of what and why).
And focus on riding our streets of scum rather than countries miles away, do we focus on stopping those that run the biggest class A cartels in the world that are currently running amok in our country with their vice peddaling and drug and gun smuggling.
there is a cost to life at the moment and from what i can gather you can pay some one a few measly pounds to snub out a life
or we can pull our purse strings in as a country and spend the money we all contribute except the maggots that we are discussing on here and get our own house in order first.
Most likely cost that much as they have to employ lots of guards and other staff to keep an eye on them. And pay for their huge pensions
[cite]Posted By: pete_tong1[/cite]Put them in chain gangs we need new rail lines and roads. Let them work hard !!!
I did some work in a prison in Yorkshire. It was a Cat C which means the lower risk or close to release. Some will have previously been Cat A and then Cat B.
Around 75% have basic literacy and numeracy problems. That goes back to their upbringing or lack of it.
They have done a deal with a big local employer who need railway track maintanance staff. The prisoners are trained while inside on a mock up train and track. They are then drugs tested. If they are clean (railways having very strict drink/drug poicies) and pass their exams/tests then they can go and work for the company when they get out.
Waste of money? Too soft? Maybe but they have an incentive to keep straight (in both senses) and the chance of a job doing work that gives them money and status (it's a "mans" job fixing track).
So when they come out they may be less likely to re-offend. Won't work for all but in the long term cheaper than building another prison and means that that ex-con is paying tax and fixing the railways.
Also did some work in a womens prison which was not nice. If you want to scare your daughter off a life of drugs and crime come and see them lining up to get their de-tox drugs in the morning. Rough is not the word.
80% of new female inmates have drink or drug problems. Many of the young (16 - 18) women find it hard to trust the male warders as they have never had dealings with a man who didn't want something from them. Many adult prisioners were abused in one way or another.
The people I felt really sorry for where the babies born in the prison. What a great start those kids are going to get!
more prisions to lock up nasty viloent people are great (some people just shouldn't be allowed out again) but are a sign that we have failed. Success is having less crime in the first place. Maybe that means dealing with the problem of young men (and as GH said somewhere else the lowest performing group of children in schols is now white working class boys like many of us) who can't read or write, women who commit crime to either get or when on drink or drugs and children growing up in abusive and neglectful homes.
I don't know how you solve all those problems, many have tried and many have failed. I just think if it was just building more prisons then we would have solved it a long time ago but we haven't and neither has the US of A.
[cite]Posted By: pete_tong1[/cite]Thats another way to look at the hard labour option. i was thinking real hard labour could be used as a detterent for not going into prison.
But is it a detterent. We had hard labour in Victorian times and before and crime was epidemic. We had so many criminals we had to ship them out to the American colinies and when they rebelled to Australia.
Historical point of interest. The Old Woolwich Arsenal wall that ran alongside the Woolwich Rd from Woolwich to Plumstead was built by prisioners living on hulks (old ships moored in the river). We locked up so many people we had to put them on boats. Didn't stop the crime.
Differnet times Henry. I think it would in these days Henry the 16-30 and even higher, criminals would hate to do a full days hard work 7 days a week. Why should prisions sit around doing nowt. The government should try everything that is possible.
Henry . Nice point about the Woolwich Arsenal wall didnt know that.
We all know you cant "stop" crime. As Ormston says any ideas will cost alot of money, but how much does the results of crime cost us now ? Insurance premiums up. Shoplifting causes extra on your shoping bill etc etc.
Of course there were murders , rapists, muggers on the "old days". There was also limited education, welfare and primary care in general. There is LESS excuse for it today.
Ormston was would you suggest then ?
I wanted to study criminology at OU as an add on to my degree. It was the worst course i ever did and i pulled out of it in the end. You had to look at every subject from the 9 differant possible angles i.e neo liberalist, marxist,feminist, social democratic and so forth dear God by the time you had done that there was no real explanation or single answer . Maybe thats the main problem ?
there was no real explanation or single answer . Maybe thats the main problem ?
..................
Yep, I agree, personally I err towards the ounce of prevention rather than the ton of cure approach, but I think the reasons differ from case-case, therefore the solutions will differ from case to case. Drink and drugs and poverty have an effect, so to does mental instability, lack of education and a lack of peer group roll models and so on. But although many prisoners and repeat criminals at that have a lack of education and command of basic literacy/numeracy there are plenty of white-collar criminals and others who don't fit the stereotypes.
GH: I don't have any particular answer to the problem but just feel people need to be aware of the wider point that for every reaction to a problem there will be consequences, for example building 100,000 new prison places is incredibly expensive and will mean a substantial tax rise - would people be willing to put up with that?
Given the figures I quoted earlier from the Home Office are six years old it probably costs nearere UKStg45,000 per year to keep someone in prison now. People might complain about inmates getting treated softly (although I don't know how many of them have been in prison, my mate was in Belmarsh and said it was horrific) but the majority of expense goes on staffing the prisons which is very hard to cut back on given the high levels of staff required and the training required to monitor violent criminals, you can't just chuck an 18 year old kid in there and ask him to keep his eye on 12 GBH merchants.
I think people on here have had some excellent suggestions (although I think Harvey Gardens went a bit OTT with his forced vasectomy idea for all 14 year old boys....) but as I said before for every idea you have there will be wider consequences.
For example, if you DO start putting a lot more people behind bars (bearing in mind we already have more people in prison than ever before) then you have to remember that you are putting mainly men in the 18-50 age group behind bars.
I know that a lot of these blokes will be dead-beats and scumbags anyway but even so you have to consider the social effects of doing this would result in taking the man of the house and leaving another family fatherless (admittedly in some cases it might be a good thing) and thereby leaving them relying on state handouts and getting stuck in the welfare trap and then producing yet another generation of Wayne and Waynettas.
There is no quick fix but in the LONG-TERM I feel that the key to solving the problem lies in tackling the scourge of deadbeat Dads who sire kids and then feck off to leave the woman and the state to bring the kid up. This is where the problem starts and seems to be getting worse, not better. You can't punish the woman or the child so you must get the message out to blokes that if they are not supporting their families financially then they are going inside (or receiving some other punitive punishment), they are creating bloody time-bombs that the rest of us have to deal with.
On top of that, I think that an under-16 curfew of 9pm would be a good start and there should also be consideration of raising the drinking age to 21 with MASSIVE punishments (immediate closure) to venues selling alcohol illegally although, of course, a side-effect of this would be that more kids would likely start trying drugs....see what I mean? For every solution there are troubling consequences.....
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]I think people on here have had some excellent suggestions (although I think Harvey Gardens went a bit OTT with his forced vasectomy idea for all 14 year old boys....)
To make a good point, sometimes you have to go OTT.
A good post Ormy, I agree with the general thrust.
Raising the legal drinking age to 21 isn't that practical, it doesn't work in the US and only encourages drinking on the streets/parks etc. In Germany the legal minimum is 16, but at the discretion of the landlord, between 16-18 years they are only allowed to consume beer, nothing stronger.
As for curfews, I think that would work and should be examined, at least to the extent that you must be with an adult after XPM or be travelling home.
A lot of blame has to go to the parents, manners & discipline start in the home, my kids who are both teenagers wouldnt dare think of being rude or acting like vandals.
Zero tolerance is what is required, stop people for every small thing, littering, grafitti, spitting, drinking in the street, chucking rubbish, it worked in New York, eventually.
My eldest a coupel of months back even come in and thanked me for teh way i was and being hard as she ses her friends and how bad they are and is pleased of the disapline
At first i was thinking its a wind up but happly not
Comments
There have always been ghettos and poverty in the UK , so why has it turned into brutality now ? Why do we make excuses for scum that talk about respect but dont have the basic respect for their fellow humans ?
And why days after this young boys murder are OB still refusing to give a discription of the attacker ?
it needs serious resolution
My solution is build more prisons and keep building them until we either run out of concrete or scum to put inside them. It won’t cure any root problems; it would certainly cost a fortune. On the plus side it would create a few jobs.
If you want everyone to pay a massive increase on their PAYE income tax to pay for the never ending line of penitentiaries and their maintenance costs then that is a wonderful idea.....
As frustrating as crime is there are some hard headed figures to be taken into account, the figures below are from a 2004 Home Office report....
Each UK prisoner costs a staggering £38,753 per year to maintain (that's from 2002 figures, its probably gone up since), that means that if you lock up 10,000 new inmates you are talking about spending UKStg400 million per year to do it.
If that's still OK with you then you will need to build more prisons. The Home Office says that EACH new prison place costs, wait you'll like this, UKStg105,000 to provide (that was based on 2001 figures).
Let's say you want to provide 100,000 NEW prison places to put all these offenders in, that's going to cost you UKStg10.5 billion upfront PLUS an annual upkeep bill for the 100,000 new prisoners of at least UKStg4 billion - that's payable every year.
There is no way that HM government would be able to take on these kinds of costs without significant NEW tax rises - I bet that would go down an absolute storm with some of the punters on here.
Solutions cost money, its as simple as that so people should think of the consequences before offering half-baked solutions.
Problem: We’ve go have a culture where blokes can father any number of kids by any number of women and constantly move on to the next one, never taking responsibility for their sprogs’ upbringing.
Solution: All fourteen year olds should be given a (temporary) vasectomy. The clip will only be removed when they can prove that: 1. They are in a long term, stable and loving relationship. 2. That they are emotionally stable and can teach their offspring to live, love, laugh and be happy. 3. That they are not crims. 4. That they have the financial wherewithal to pay for their kids’ upkeep. 5. They actually want to have real children and not just a little manikin to hang some bling on.
Problem: The penal system doesn’t teach kids, because the punishment never fits the crime.
Solution: All punishments are designed to fit crime starting from the littlest all the way up. For example littler louts should be forced to pick up litter whilst wearing a Womble suit. Vandals should be made to fix whatever they have broken. Murderers should be forced to watch endless Boyzone videos.
Problem: Everyone who goes to prison comes out a druggie, whether or not they went in one.
Solution: All prisoners are given a weekly drugs test. There is a presumption that all prison sentences are run clean in their entirety. Any hint of drug taking and the sentence is automatically reset.
Problem: There are just too many teenagers with attitude problems.
Solution: It’s easy really because you can spot the ones with bad attitudes a mile off; they are the ones who saunter across the road as if they are the kings forcing traffic to slow down for them (it’s sad really – that’s the only little bit of power they have in their lives). Sad or not, they’d never do it in my regime because all motorists would be given carte-blanche to mow down cocky teenagers.
Solution: All fourteen year olds should be given a (temporary) vasectomy. The clip will only be removed when they can prove that: 1. They are in a long term, stable and loving relationship. 2. That they are emotionally stable and can teach their offspring to live, love, laugh and be happy. 3. That they are not crims. 4. That they have the financial wherewithal to pay for their kids’ upkeep. 5. They actually want to have real children and not just a little manikin to hang some bling on.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Feckin' hell Harvey, I know what you are saying mate but that's a bit strong isn't it? ALL fourteen year olds? Including your brother/cousin and your OWN kids when they hit 14? I think it would be more effective to really hit deadbeat Dads with penal sentences (seeing as they have no means or intention of paying child support) for abandonment. See how keen they are then to go banging out new runts all over the place.
But then again, in my hypocritical world, this wasn't really designed for my family - just everybody else's.
Murderers getting away with a manslaughter conviction, sentenced to anything from 5-10 years (mostly in a cushy detention centre, maybe even less than 5 years), look at some of the recent London Teen cases for plenty of examples.
How is our legal system letting people escape with the fact that using a knife on somebody is not the requisite intention to cause GBH to secure a murder conviction? If you slash someone, you aren't normally doing it for a scratch are you?
Perhaps we should look at why it costs £38,753 per year in this country. I dont doubt your figures, something is very wrong somewhere.
And focus on riding our streets of scum rather than countries miles away, do we focus on stopping those that run the biggest class A cartels in the world that are currently running amok in our country with their vice peddaling and drug and gun smuggling.
there is a cost to life at the moment and from what i can gather you can pay some one a few measly pounds to snub out a life
or we can pull our purse strings in as a country and spend the money we all contribute except the maggots that we are discussing on here and get our own house in order first.
if not what is your solution to the problem
I did some work in a prison in Yorkshire. It was a Cat C which means the lower risk or close to release. Some will have previously been Cat A and then Cat B.
Around 75% have basic literacy and numeracy problems. That goes back to their upbringing or lack of it.
They have done a deal with a big local employer who need railway track maintanance staff. The prisoners are trained while inside on a mock up train and track. They are then drugs tested. If they are clean (railways having very strict drink/drug poicies) and pass their exams/tests then they can go and work for the company when they get out.
Waste of money? Too soft? Maybe but they have an incentive to keep straight (in both senses) and the chance of a job doing work that gives them money and status (it's a "mans" job fixing track).
So when they come out they may be less likely to re-offend. Won't work for all but in the long term cheaper than building another prison and means that that ex-con is paying tax and fixing the railways.
Also did some work in a womens prison which was not nice. If you want to scare your daughter off a life of drugs and crime come and see them lining up to get their de-tox drugs in the morning. Rough is not the word.
80% of new female inmates have drink or drug problems. Many of the young (16 - 18) women find it hard to trust the male warders as they have never had dealings with a man who didn't want something from them. Many adult prisioners were abused in one way or another.
The people I felt really sorry for where the babies born in the prison. What a great start those kids are going to get!
more prisions to lock up nasty viloent people are great (some people just shouldn't be allowed out again) but are a sign that we have failed. Success is having less crime in the first place. Maybe that means dealing with the problem of young men (and as GH said somewhere else the lowest performing group of children in schols is now white working class boys like many of us) who can't read or write, women who commit crime to either get or when on drink or drugs and children growing up in abusive and neglectful homes.
I don't know how you solve all those problems, many have tried and many have failed. I just think if it was just building more prisons then we would have solved it a long time ago but we haven't and neither has the US of A.
But is it a detterent. We had hard labour in Victorian times and before and crime was epidemic. We had so many criminals we had to ship them out to the American colinies and when they rebelled to Australia.
Historical point of interest. The Old Woolwich Arsenal wall that ran alongside the Woolwich Rd from Woolwich to Plumstead was built by prisioners living on hulks (old ships moored in the river). We locked up so many people we had to put them on boats. Didn't stop the crime.
reports in papers today people who carry a knife in a non threating way to get comunity service?
what message does that send
We all know you cant "stop" crime. As Ormston says any ideas will cost alot of money, but how much does the results of crime cost us now ? Insurance premiums up. Shoplifting causes extra on your shoping bill etc etc.
Of course there were murders , rapists, muggers on the "old days". There was also limited education, welfare and primary care in general. There is LESS excuse for it today.
Ormston was would you suggest then ?
I wanted to study criminology at OU as an add on to my degree. It was the worst course i ever did and i pulled out of it in the end. You had to look at every subject from the 9 differant possible angles i.e neo liberalist, marxist,feminist, social democratic and so forth dear God by the time you had done that there was no real explanation or single answer . Maybe thats the main problem ?
..................
Yep, I agree, personally I err towards the ounce of prevention rather than the ton of cure approach, but I think the reasons differ from case-case, therefore the solutions will differ from case to case. Drink and drugs and poverty have an effect, so to does mental instability, lack of education and a lack of peer group roll models and so on. But although many prisoners and repeat criminals at that have a lack of education and command of basic literacy/numeracy there are plenty of white-collar criminals and others who don't fit the stereotypes.
Given the figures I quoted earlier from the Home Office are six years old it probably costs nearere UKStg45,000 per year to keep someone in prison now. People might complain about inmates getting treated softly (although I don't know how many of them have been in prison, my mate was in Belmarsh and said it was horrific) but the majority of expense goes on staffing the prisons which is very hard to cut back on given the high levels of staff required and the training required to monitor violent criminals, you can't just chuck an 18 year old kid in there and ask him to keep his eye on 12 GBH merchants.
I think people on here have had some excellent suggestions (although I think Harvey Gardens went a bit OTT with his forced vasectomy idea for all 14 year old boys....) but as I said before for every idea you have there will be wider consequences.
For example, if you DO start putting a lot more people behind bars (bearing in mind we already have more people in prison than ever before) then you have to remember that you are putting mainly men in the 18-50 age group behind bars.
I know that a lot of these blokes will be dead-beats and scumbags anyway but even so you have to consider the social effects of doing this would result in taking the man of the house and leaving another family fatherless (admittedly in some cases it might be a good thing) and thereby leaving them relying on state handouts and getting stuck in the welfare trap and then producing yet another generation of Wayne and Waynettas.
There is no quick fix but in the LONG-TERM I feel that the key to solving the problem lies in tackling the scourge of deadbeat Dads who sire kids and then feck off to leave the woman and the state to bring the kid up. This is where the problem starts and seems to be getting worse, not better. You can't punish the woman or the child so you must get the message out to blokes that if they are not supporting their families financially then they are going inside (or receiving some other punitive punishment), they are creating bloody time-bombs that the rest of us have to deal with.
On top of that, I think that an under-16 curfew of 9pm would be a good start and there should also be consideration of raising the drinking age to 21 with MASSIVE punishments (immediate closure) to venues selling alcohol illegally although, of course, a side-effect of this would be that more kids would likely start trying drugs....see what I mean? For every solution there are troubling consequences.....
To make a good point, sometimes you have to go OTT.
Raising the legal drinking age to 21 isn't that practical, it doesn't work in the US and only encourages drinking on the streets/parks etc. In Germany the legal minimum is 16, but at the discretion of the landlord, between 16-18 years they are only allowed to consume beer, nothing stronger.
As for curfews, I think that would work and should be examined, at least to the extent that you must be with an adult after XPM or be travelling home.
Zero tolerance is what is required, stop people for every small thing, littering, grafitti, spitting, drinking in the street, chucking rubbish, it worked in New York, eventually.
Im the same with my girls im hard on them
My eldest a coupel of months back even come in and thanked me for teh way i was and being hard as she ses her friends and how bad they are and is pleased of the disapline
At first i was thinking its a wind up but happly not