When Bishop was originally told that Rob had died by a Policeman his response was to smile and say "sweet".
He refused to go to Court to receive the sentence. Throughout the proceedings he laughed in Court and looking up at his 6 mates in the Gallery. He was visibly shaking with laughter when he heard that Rob had received a commendation for helping Police arrest a man for assault when he worked at M & S in Bluewater.
I've lived in Sidcup all my life and the town has steadily gone downhill over the last 20 years. The Police do very little to break up the gangs that congregate on the street corners and we've even had a Happy Shopper alcohol delivery service to kids in a local park.
It really is time for the "do gooders" to take a step to one side and for offenders to receive sentences that might actually scare them.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Forget what sentance this piece of shit actually got and realise that whether he`s out in 20 years or not the sentence is not hard enough. He should be in prison for the rest of his days. No argument as far as I can see.
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Forget what sentance this piece of shit actually got and realise that whether he`s out in 20 years or not the sentence is not hard enough. He should be in prison for the rest of his days. No argument as far as I can see.[/quote]
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.[/quote]
Your last sentence is at the crux Henners. It shouldn`t matter. I for one would be quite happy to see our prisons ( for violent offenders) run on the lines of the American State Pens with harsh regimes and shoot to kill policy for trouble. Chain gangs for community work and true life sentence for murder. All good behaviour gets you in the states is your next meal.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Forget what sentance this piece of shit actually got and realise that whether he`s out in 20 years or not the sentence is not hard enough. He should be in prison for the rest of his days. No argument as far as I can see.
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.
That, Henry is the rub of it. Handing out life sentences with no parole does give us a better sense of justice being served but the problem is that a prison full of blokes with no chance of ever getting out would be a very dangerous place.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Forget what sentance this piece of shit actually got and realise that whether he`s out in 20 years or not the sentence is not hard enough. He should be in prison for the rest of his days. No argument as far as I can see.[/quote]
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.[/quote]
That, Henry is the rub of it. Handing out life sentences with no parole does give us a better sense of justice being served but the problem is that a prison full of blokes with no chance of ever getting out would be a very dangerous place.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.[/quote]
Prison in America gets by just fine with thousands of prisoners with no chance of parole. If they cause trouble and don`t stop when challenged they get shot ! job done. I am sick of our namby pamby attitude to violent offenders. They deserve NO rights other than being kept and fed until they die.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Prison in America gets by just fine with thousands of prisoners with no chance of parole. If they cause trouble and don`t stop when challenged they get shot ! job done. I am sick of our namby pamby attitude to violent offenders. They deserve NO rights other than being kept and fed until they die.
but it hasn't really been a deterrent not to go to prison in the first place,even with the "don't drop your soap in the showers"
[cite]Posted By: Daggs[/cite]He's got 20yrs minimum. That means he will be out on the street at age 42,
Factually incorrect. It does notmean [/b]he willbe out in 20 years it's only your opinion that he will be out then. "Could" be out in 20 years would be have been correct.
They refuse to build new prisons. Factually incorrect. New prison being built in Plumstead now.
You really do like to pick over words don't you?
How does 'it's likely he will be out in twenty years' but i believe he WILL be out in twenty years, sit with you?
The 'new prison' is i believe an annexe to Belmarsh. Probably destined to be a young offenders institution. Any way the statement 'the Gov. will not build more prisons' is a statement made by politicians of all parties not just me. The fact is there are insufficient prison spaces, hence the 'early release shceme'
I don't know that your family hasn't been a victim of knife crime, but i hope it hasn't.
It's easy to take the soft approach when others are victims. Not so easy when one becomes a victim.
I don't suggest knife crime is different. All murder is evil. But surely even you can see this thread is about knife crime. Notably the Rob Knox murder.
This morning i did indeed suggest Bishop would get fifteen years and yes he got more, but i also said he would get a minimum term. I don't recall you or anyone challenging my assertion before the sentence was announced. As i said 'i stuck my neck out'
One more thing: If you are going to try and rip me up for holding a tougher opinion on murder than you. Could you do it one line at a time please. All these quotes, sub-quotes, re-quotes are getting difficult to follow.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Forget what sentance this piece of shit actually got and realise that whether he`s out in 20 years or not the sentence is not hard enough. He should be in prison for the rest of his days. No argument as far as I can see.
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.
That, Henry is the rub of it. Handing out life sentences with no parole does give us a better sense of justice being served but the problem is that a prison full of blokes with no chance of ever getting out would be a very dangerous place.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
Prison in America gets by just fine with thousands of prisoners with no chance of parole. If they cause trouble and don`t stop when challenged they get shot ! job done. I am sick of our namby pamby attitude to violent offenders. They deserve NO rights other than being kept and fed until they die.
If there is one thing that the prison system in America does not do it is "get by just fine." They lock up more and more people each year - they have the highest incarceration rates in the developed world - and what happens to the crime rate? It just goes up and up and up.
What's more, America is locking up so many people that its prisons are basically full up. In some prisons the communal gymnasium and even outdoor areas have had to be commandeered and turned into accomodation areas for prisoners.
Sorry, but if there is one country in the world that you don't want to hold up as a worthy example in terms of incarceration it is the USA.
Thing is prisons in America keep filling up so that sort of regime and capital punishment in some states doesn't seem to do much to deter other criminals.
On the murder means natural life I do think we could learn something from the states on having degrees of murder with people like Bishop getting Life eg natural term but someone who gets in a pub fight and lands a punch which kills getting less and the mercy killing of the terminally ill something else. Not about being soft but recognising that some actions that lead to death are different from others. Rules that say take a life = prison for life regardless of how are too inflexible for me.
I don`t really give two hoots if the prisoners are forced to share a bed in the yard with only a black bin liner for protection. Certainly protect our prison officers by having sharpshooters, Watchtowers and shoot to kill policy. There may not be a deterent effect in the States with this regime but as you well know they don`t have a society that can be compared in any way to ours. No welfare state, NHS etc. Life can truly be hard there and it breeds people who are desperate. Not sure the little shits here can be compared.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
The answer to that is that they EARN remission by good behaviour.
Bishop would have got 40 years but the judge halved it to give the 20 year minimum term.
In my view the minimum term should be 40 years but with good behaviour he could come out sooner (say) 30 years.
That way there is still an incentive to behave and the sentence is not as derisory as it presently appears given that this scumbag murdered somebody. Let us not forget that.
However I agree that life should mean natural life for coldly calculated murders of this nature.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]I don`t really give two hoots if the prisoners are forced to share a bed in the yard with only a black bin liner for protection. Certainly protect our prison officers by having sharpshooters, Watchtowers and shoot to kill policy. There may not be a deterent effect in the States with this regime but as you well know they don`t have a society that can be compared in any way to ours. No welfare state, NHS etc. Life can truly be hard there and it breeds people who are desperate. Not sure the little shits here can be compared.
Disagree. Don't think prisons should be like hotels and having seen the inside of few they ain't
but regardless of what people of done I think a civilised society should give its criminals basic levels of decency.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
The answer to that is that they EARN remission by good behaviour.
Bishop would have got 40 years but the juge halved it to give the 20 year minimum term.
In my view the minimum term should be 40 years but with good behaviour he could come out sooner (say) 30 years.
That way there is still an incentive to behave and the sentence is not as derisory as it presently appears given that this scumbag murdered somebody. Let us not forget that.
Agree with that but why "would have got 40 years"? Is that the maximum possible?
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
The answer to that is that they EARN remission by good behaviour.
Bishop would have got 40 years but the juge halved it to give the 20 year minimum term.
In my view the minimum term should be 40 years but with good behaviour he could come out sooner (say) 30 years.
That way there is still an incentive to behave and the sentence is not as derisory as it presently appears given that this scumbag murdered somebody. Let us not forget that.
Agree with that but why "would have got 40 years"? Is that the maximum possible?
Read my link higher up the thread.
Essentially the judge sets the minimum term by halving what he would have given. So with a 20 year minimum term the sentence would have been 40 years.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]I don`t really give two hoots if the prisoners are forced to share a bed in the yard with only a black bin liner for protection. Certainly protect our prison officers by having sharpshooters, Watchtowers and shoot to kill policy. There may not be a deterent effect in the States with this regime but as you well know they don`t have a society that can be compared in any way to ours. No welfare state, NHS etc. Life can truly be hard there and it breeds people who are desperate. Not sure the little shits here can be compared.
The point about American prisons is that the operators [usually private operators like Wackenhut] have no choice but to allow the ethnic gangs to control the prison in order to have some measure of control, this has some very worrying circumstances because it concentrates a lot of power in the hands of some very dangerous people.
Secondly, the US does have a welfare system, they call it social security there too, and though they don't have an NHS they do have Medicare/Medicaid for the least affluent amongst the population.
However, you are right in saying that it is a much harsher place than the UK but that does not seem to have much of an impact in neccesarily lowering the crime rate, particularly the violent crime rate.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]I don`t really give two hoots if the prisoners are forced to share a bed in the yard with only a black bin liner for protection. Certainly protect our prison officers by having sharpshooters, Watchtowers and shoot to kill policy. There may not be a deterent effect in the States with this regime but as you well know they don`t have a society that can be compared in any way to ours. No welfare state, NHS etc. Life can truly be hard there and it breeds people who are desperate. Not sure the little shits here can be compared.[/quote]
Disagree. Don't think prisons should be like hotels and having seen the inside of few they ain't but regardless of what people of done I think a civilised society should give its criminals basic levels of decency.[/quote]
Basic levels of decency ? Bed, Food and Shelter. Somewhere to shit. End of imho They chose to live outside of our decent society. ( I am only talking about very violent offenders by the way)
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
The answer to that is that they EARN remission by good behaviour.
Bishop would have got 40 years but the juge halved it to give the 20 year minimum term.
In my view the minimum term should be 40 years but with good behaviour he could come out sooner (say) 30 years.
That way there is still an incentive to behave and the sentence is not as derisory as it presently appears given that this scumbag murdered somebody. Let us not forget that.
Agree with that but why "would have got 40 years"? Is that the maximum possible?
I think the judge can give a whole life term.
I have to disagree with your previous post. IMO there are some that do nothing to deserve decency from society. They choose not live by societies rules.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]However, you are right in saying that it is a much harsher place than the UK but that does not seem to have much of an impact in neccesarily lowering the crime rate, particularly the violent crime rate.
So obviously our more caring society with its more liberal judicial system is the reason for our ever decreasing violent crime? Not having a pop because it's a bugger of a problem but persoanlly i don't think we have anything to shout about.
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]Probably find prisoners get 'treated ok' in prison because otherwise they would need more prison officers to keep them in line.
3 of my family work for the prison service. Your not too far from the truth.
SHG, I understand where you are coming from, I really do, but you have to remember that after the headlines have gone some poor bastards have to work in the prisons and if you give people no incentive whatsoever to behave then they will create an extremely dangerous place for people to work in.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Forget what sentance this piece of shit actually got and realise that whether he`s out in 20 years or not the sentence is not hard enough. He should be in prison for the rest of his days. No argument as far as I can see.
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.
That, Henry is the rub of it. Handing out life sentences with no parole does give us a better sense of justice being served but the problem is that a prison full of blokes with no chance of ever getting out would be a very dangerous place.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
In prison, there are 2-3 types of person, those that have committed very small misdemeanours (sic) and will never go back in, there are those who are life criminals and see prison as a way of life, or a small price to pay for their way of life, and there are others in for more serious crimes, such as murder, rape, paedoes etc.
You can always tell those that definitely wont come back, by the amount of visitors they receive (they have a strong support network outside) and how mnay letters they receive etc. However, scum like Bishop are all too common in prison, they dont give a flying feck about anyone else except themselves and what advantage they can gain from you, the screws and anyone else, real scum of the earth types.
They play the system, until they have a chance for parole, then suddenly they find religion, and start wearing cheap prison issue crosses and pendants, and start behaving on the wings. For these people, IMO, as someone who has been in the system, there is no point in even trying with them, they wont change, and they will offend again. For a minority inside who have genuinely made mistakes, and we all have, prisons can be about redemption, rebuilding and changing your whole take on life and whats important, this is what should be encouraged.
It all depends on what you want your prison service to be?
Some prisons are easier than others, thats why they categorize them, which gives inmates the opportunity to better themselves (more education and support), you read in the press that inmates get it cushy, depends what you mean by cushy, its carrot & stick, you behave, and do as your told, yes, there are some priviliges, but at the end of the day, you still dont have your liberty, no matter how many tv's you have in your cell.
My brother ended up inside last year, and had spells in Woodhill (Cat A.) & Springhill (Cat C.) - he had time to reflect on his midemeanours & I believe he has come through the system a better person. I don't think he'll be in any hurry to go back, especially after his Woodhill experience.
Nobody is perfect & I guess the experience is what you make of it & learn from it. Talk about shooting people, sleeping in binliners etc is all very silly.
I appreciate your point Ormiston but having these scumbags locked up is a price that society has to pay and if that means more PO`s in the very secure violent offenders establishments then so be it. I know I keep banging on about the american system but they can look after their shite and give little in the way of reward. You keep your nose clean and you get by you cause trouble and you get potentially shot. The same regime here would imho have the desired affect of keeping the scum in line if not then pull that trigger. I won`t shed a tear. Give PO`s here the level of investment required to do their job safely and tbh f*ck the scum.
I think Charlton should employ some Prison guards to deal with violent hooligans such as those from Crystal Palace when they come to the Valley.
As DA9 said it depends what you want from the prison service. If you want retribution then the US system (or at least the high security version you describe SHG) is great but it will cost a lot more to operate.
If you want to prevent re-offending then some education (75% of prisoners have basic literacy needs and 80% drink and/or drug problems) and incentive is needed. That will cost a lot more as well.
As Oakster said it had a positive affect on his brother. People like Bishop sound like they don't care either way and will just adapt to the system as DA9 said.
I don't think there is an easy, quick or cheap solution cos if there was the politicians would have tried it years ago.
It's not great sound bites but better education, better sex education especially (less kids being brough up by kids), better training and job prospects, prompt tackling of new offenders so that they don't think they can get away with things so easily, punishments for parents of young offenders so they deal with their children, longer sentances for violent crime, death by driving and drunk driving punished more harshly, control of drinking and drugs and re-education around drink and drug abuse as they either lead to crime or are its cause (stealing to score drugs) in many cases and arrested all Millwall fans. All this would just be a start.
And it might take 20 or 30 years as there is no overnight solution IMHO.
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]the answer to this is very simple
national service unless you stay in education from 16 or earlier, this can include learning trades etc and the army or foreign aid etc
Petty criminals go into low cost army regiments, or community labour.
Serious crims into Prison which is very harsh hard labour and solitary only - no perks.
The army doesn't want criminals. This isn't Wellingtons "scum of the earth".
Learning trades. foreign aid, community work all good but shouldn't be punishments, they should be things young people want to do ie learn a trade. Make all employers pay a levy to pay for apprenticeships which they get back if they take an apprentice on themselves.
Comments
He refused to go to Court to receive the sentence. Throughout the proceedings he laughed in Court and looking up at his 6 mates in the Gallery. He was visibly shaking with laughter when he heard that Rob had received a commendation for helping Police arrest a man for assault when he worked at M & S in Bluewater.
I've lived in Sidcup all my life and the town has steadily gone downhill over the last 20 years. The Police do very little to break up the gangs that congregate on the street corners and we've even had a Happy Shopper alcohol delivery service to kids in a local park.
It really is time for the "do gooders" to take a step to one side and for offenders to receive sentences that might actually scare them.
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.[/quote]
Your last sentence is at the crux Henners. It shouldn`t matter. I for one would be quite happy to see our prisons ( for violent offenders) run on the lines of the American State Pens with harsh regimes and shoot to kill policy for trouble. Chain gangs for community work and true life sentence for murder. All good behaviour gets you in the states is your next meal.
That, Henry is the rub of it. Handing out life sentences with no parole does give us a better sense of justice being served but the problem is that a prison full of blokes with no chance of ever getting out would be a very dangerous place.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.
I'd be quite happy if he never came out although from a Prison Service point of view that makes prisoners very difficult to manage as there is little incentive for good behaviour inside. Whether that should matter is another question.[/quote]
That, Henry is the rub of it. Handing out life sentences with no parole does give us a better sense of justice being served but the problem is that a prison full of blokes with no chance of ever getting out would be a very dangerous place.
My Uncle's ex-missus was a screw and she said that it was only the lure of a parole hearing and an early release that could really bring prisoners into line, it was about the only power the screws had over them.
Incidentally though, I must say that I have always felt that if you murder someone that you should go down for the rest of your natural life, I just can't see any justification for release. You took a life, now you lose yours, its pretty simple.[/quote]
Prison in America gets by just fine with thousands of prisoners with no chance of parole. If they cause trouble and don`t stop when challenged they get shot ! job done. I am sick of our namby pamby attitude to violent offenders. They deserve NO rights other than being kept and fed until they die.
but it hasn't really been a deterrent not to go to prison in the first place,even with the "don't drop your soap in the showers"
You really do like to pick over words don't you?
How does 'it's likely he will be out in twenty years' but i believe he WILL be out in twenty years, sit with you?
The 'new prison' is i believe an annexe to Belmarsh. Probably destined to be a young offenders institution. Any way the statement 'the Gov. will not build more prisons' is a statement made by politicians of all parties not just me. The fact is there are insufficient prison spaces, hence the 'early release shceme'
I don't know that your family hasn't been a victim of knife crime, but i hope it hasn't.
It's easy to take the soft approach when others are victims. Not so easy when one becomes a victim.
I don't suggest knife crime is different. All murder is evil. But surely even you can see this thread is about knife crime. Notably the Rob Knox murder.
This morning i did indeed suggest Bishop would get fifteen years and yes he got more, but i also said he would get a minimum term. I don't recall you or anyone challenging my assertion before the sentence was announced. As i said 'i stuck my neck out'
One more thing: If you are going to try and rip me up for holding a tougher opinion on murder than you. Could you do it one line at a time please. All these quotes, sub-quotes, re-quotes are getting difficult to follow.
If there is one thing that the prison system in America does not do it is "get by just fine." They lock up more and more people each year - they have the highest incarceration rates in the developed world - and what happens to the crime rate? It just goes up and up and up.
What's more, America is locking up so many people that its prisons are basically full up. In some prisons the communal gymnasium and even outdoor areas have had to be commandeered and turned into accomodation areas for prisoners.
Sorry, but if there is one country in the world that you don't want to hold up as a worthy example in terms of incarceration it is the USA.
On the murder means natural life I do think we could learn something from the states on having degrees of murder with people like Bishop getting Life eg natural term but someone who gets in a pub fight and lands a punch which kills getting less and the mercy killing of the terminally ill something else. Not about being soft but recognising that some actions that lead to death are different from others. Rules that say take a life = prison for life regardless of how are too inflexible for me.
The answer to that is that they EARN remission by good behaviour.
Bishop would have got 40 years but the judge halved it to give the 20 year minimum term.
In my view the minimum term should be 40 years but with good behaviour he could come out sooner (say) 30 years.
That way there is still an incentive to behave and the sentence is not as derisory as it presently appears given that this scumbag murdered somebody. Let us not forget that.
However I agree that life should mean natural life for coldly calculated murders of this nature.
Disagree. Don't think prisons should be like hotels and having seen the inside of few they ain't
but regardless of what people of done I think a civilised society should give its criminals basic levels of decency.
Agree with that but why "would have got 40 years"? Is that the maximum possible?
Read my link higher up the thread.
Essentially the judge sets the minimum term by halving what he would have given. So with a 20 year minimum term the sentence would have been 40 years.
The point about American prisons is that the operators [usually private operators like Wackenhut] have no choice but to allow the ethnic gangs to control the prison in order to have some measure of control, this has some very worrying circumstances because it concentrates a lot of power in the hands of some very dangerous people.
Secondly, the US does have a welfare system, they call it social security there too, and though they don't have an NHS they do have Medicare/Medicaid for the least affluent amongst the population.
However, you are right in saying that it is a much harsher place than the UK but that does not seem to have much of an impact in neccesarily lowering the crime rate, particularly the violent crime rate.
Disagree. Don't think prisons should be like hotels and having seen the inside of few they ain't
but regardless of what people of done I think a civilised society should give its criminals basic levels of decency.[/quote]
Basic levels of decency ? Bed, Food and Shelter. Somewhere to shit. End of imho They chose to live outside of our decent society. ( I am only talking about very violent offenders by the way)
I think the judge can give a whole life term.
I have to disagree with your previous post. IMO there are some that do nothing to deserve decency from society. They choose not live by societies rules.
So obviously our more caring society with its more liberal judicial system is the reason for our ever decreasing violent crime? Not having a pop because it's a bugger of a problem but persoanlly i don't think we have anything to shout about.
3 of my family work for the prison service. Your not too far from the truth.
In prison, there are 2-3 types of person, those that have committed very small misdemeanours (sic) and will never go back in, there are those who are life criminals and see prison as a way of life, or a small price to pay for their way of life, and there are others in for more serious crimes, such as murder, rape, paedoes etc.
You can always tell those that definitely wont come back, by the amount of visitors they receive (they have a strong support network outside) and how mnay letters they receive etc. However, scum like Bishop are all too common in prison, they dont give a flying feck about anyone else except themselves and what advantage they can gain from you, the screws and anyone else, real scum of the earth types.
They play the system, until they have a chance for parole, then suddenly they find religion, and start wearing cheap prison issue crosses and pendants, and start behaving on the wings. For these people, IMO, as someone who has been in the system, there is no point in even trying with them, they wont change, and they will offend again. For a minority inside who have genuinely made mistakes, and we all have, prisons can be about redemption, rebuilding and changing your whole take on life and whats important, this is what should be encouraged.
It all depends on what you want your prison service to be?
Some prisons are easier than others, thats why they categorize them, which gives inmates the opportunity to better themselves (more education and support), you read in the press that inmates get it cushy, depends what you mean by cushy, its carrot & stick, you behave, and do as your told, yes, there are some priviliges, but at the end of the day, you still dont have your liberty, no matter how many tv's you have in your cell.
Nobody is perfect & I guess the experience is what you make of it & learn from it. Talk about shooting people, sleeping in binliners etc is all very silly.
national service unless you stay in education from 16 or earlier, this can include learning trades etc and the army or foreign aid etc
Petty criminals go into low cost army regiments, or community labour.
Serious crims into Prison which is very harsh hard labour and solitary only - no perks.
Let's see how good he'd be with a blade then.
As DA9 said it depends what you want from the prison service. If you want retribution then the US system (or at least the high security version you describe SHG) is great but it will cost a lot more to operate.
If you want to prevent re-offending then some education (75% of prisoners have basic literacy needs and 80% drink and/or drug problems) and incentive is needed. That will cost a lot more as well.
As Oakster said it had a positive affect on his brother. People like Bishop sound like they don't care either way and will just adapt to the system as DA9 said.
I don't think there is an easy, quick or cheap solution cos if there was the politicians would have tried it years ago.
It's not great sound bites but better education, better sex education especially (less kids being brough up by kids), better training and job prospects, prompt tackling of new offenders so that they don't think they can get away with things so easily, punishments for parents of young offenders so they deal with their children, longer sentances for violent crime, death by driving and drunk driving punished more harshly, control of drinking and drugs and re-education around drink and drug abuse as they either lead to crime or are its cause (stealing to score drugs) in many cases and arrested all Millwall fans. All this would just be a start.
And it might take 20 or 30 years as there is no overnight solution IMHO.
So we train these nutters how to kill efficiently and effectively without the need to carry a weapon?
No thanks.
The army doesn't want criminals. This isn't Wellingtons "scum of the earth".
Learning trades. foreign aid, community work all good but shouldn't be punishments, they should be things young people want to do ie learn a trade. Make all employers pay a levy to pay for apprenticeships which they get back if they take an apprentice on themselves.