Very sad. Just the other day I was saying I have never seen any real trouble in Sidcup and I go out drinking friday and saturday, never any trouble. :-(
I was listening to a politician top serving British copper Monday night on the box and how he was saying how the police have done all they can and it's now down to the public to sort it.
[cite]Posted By: Carter[/cite]I was listening to a[strike]politician[/strike]top serving British copper Monday night on the box and how he was saying how the police have done all they can and it's now down to the public to sort it.
To me that is the green light to go vigilante.
No problem with that here
Then, IMO, you haven't a clue my friend, in the nicest sense :-)
You would end up with a situation with intimidating thugs running areas, exactly the situation you wouldn't want. Corruption and blackmail would skyrocket, so would 'act first, establish the truth later'. Vigilantes groups would not be white knights shining happiness over communities, but those seeking a justifiable form for violence or extortion.
The copper IS right to a certain extent. Is is not something that will change overnight, it will take a generation to change. The one group predominently to blame is not the government, not the police, but the parents. Values mean absolutely nothing to a big chunk of a generation, and there is no easy overnight answer to get that back.
I can't see how it will take a generation to change. These kids who have been raised without values are going to start raising their own children at some point, and they certainly don't have virtues to pass on.
For me, the only option is tougher knife and gun laws with more police power and searches in affected areas. As someone else said, get caught carrying a knife and you serve a reasonably long-term sentence. We're not very far away from having widespread ghetto scenarios. Places you just don't think about going at night. In fact we do already have quite a few of those.
Let's be honest now, street fights, stabbings etc in SE London are nothing new. It is this months story for the media and everything will be highlighted.
Sad but true.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Let's be honest now, street fights, stabbings etc in SE London are nothing new. It is this months story for the media and everything will be highlighted.
Sad but true.
True, Chirpy, but the events of the last two weeks have been exceptionally violent and the attack in Lee took place at 10AM in the morning in broad daylight FFS.
A bit of rough and tumble outside the pub at 11.30PM with pint glasses or whatever is one thing (definitely not acceptable, but has always been there) but blokes running round the pub with two knives or a scumbag cutting someones throat with a glass shard is just taking things in a very worrying direction.
The Lee incident was a one off. Not a stabbing, not gang related, just a case of wrong place wrong time. No actual weapon involved. Sadly due to this it will probably end up as Manslauighter rather than Murder.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]The Lee incident was a one off. Not a stabbing, not gang related, just a case of wrong place wrong time. No actual weapon involved. Sadly due to this it will probably end up as Manslauighter rather than Murder.
Its a tough one, it depends on the circumstances of killing itself, which are obviously pretty gruesome to think about. You'd hope they could make a murder charge stick but you know the defence will push hard for the lower charge.
was watching one of these street wars fly on the wall programmes last night and there were two incidents which made me astounded.
Incidents one was in Derry , the police car pulled up outside a pub where there is a guy on the floor being savagely kicked by two other lads , one of the lads carries on the attack and then stamps on the guys head before the police jump out of the car and arrest him. There was no question over what went on or who did it as the picture was clear as day.
The second incident was also in derry and as the police van drives down the high st a group of lads walks across the road a 100 yards or so up , one of the lads drops his trousers and does a little dance for a second or two before pulling his trousers back up and walking off . The police call him over but he runs off , they then spend a while driving round trying to find him but just as they give up he appears. They arrest him and take him to the station.
The first lad gets a £110 fine for the assault
The second lad gets £100 fine for dropping his trousers and £100 for running away.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]The Lee incident was a one off. Not a stabbing, not gang related, just a case of wrong place wrong time. No actual weapon involved. Sadly due to this it will probably end up as Manslauighter rather than Murder.[/quote]
Chirpy is right, although in this I hope the perpetrator is charged with and if found guilty, convicted of murder. As I understand the situation he wanted to have a fight and therefore was intent on causing some level of violence, he may not have intended it to have resulted in the lad's death, but that was the consequence of his action and therefore that is the charge he should face.
As AFKA says vigilantism might sound like a satisfying solution but it creates its own problems. I wouldn't feel comfortable with gangs wandering around tooled up policing their own neighbourhoods and taking the law into their own hands, that creates intimidation and its own problems. It takes a long time to train a policeman and that's for a reason and society is best off leaving law enforcement to the experts. For a practical example of how this can go wrong think back to the anti-paedophile demonstrations in Potsmoth a few years ago - and remember that innocent people ended up being victimised - because the media and/or the demonstrators got the wrong houses or picked on people with the same or similar names. The victimised were attacked and had their houses, cars and property trashed - this included in one instance a house belonging to a paediatrician, which perhaps illustrates the sense of leaving it to vigilante mobs.
On the one side the police have to be given more power, but that creates problems, anyone remember the suss laws in the early 80s or the SPG? That resulted in elements in society - mostly young black youths feeling victimised and was a cause of rioting in inner citiy areas of London, Liverpool, Bristol etc. Sentencing must become tougher for crimes involving weapons, but deterrent is only part of the solution. The government needs to get to work on the being tough on the causes of crime side of their mantra. It's easy in British society to say everyone has an opportunity, but opportunity is greater for some than others. For ill educated school drop outs and kids from broken homes the temptation is to risk a criminal record while participating in crime and as some point out, a criminal record becomes something to be proud of, it isn't something I'd want but there is a certain recidivist culture that affords people who've done time with "respect". To an extent a lot of what needs to happen is down to society and individuals within that taking responsibility, but the government needs to ensure that a helping hand exists to get people out of societal situations that are fundamentally unaspirational. As always there are no easy solutions and media pressure creates a demand for the government to act to be seen to be doing something, and that may well mean a more draconian solution, that might make Daily Mail readers feel happier, but it won't necessarily be the right solution.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Let's be honest now, street fights, stabbings etc in SE London are nothing new. It is this months story for the media and everything will be highlighted.
Sad but true.
17, yes 17 stabbing incidents in london since last fridays attack at the metro bar!
I am 28, not old by a long shot, but i can tell you there wasn't this much violence when i was 18, it is getting worse, and people who say 'its always been bad' are living in a dreamworld.
No offence to you personally tho chirps its not a pop, but you have to look at the stats! Not good
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Let's be honest now, street fights, stabbings etc in SE London are nothing new. It is this months story for the media and everything will be highlighted.
Sad but true.
17, yes 17 stabbing incidents in london since last fridays attack at the metro bar!
I am 28, not old by a long shot, but i can tell you there wasn't this much violence when i was 18, it is getting worse, and people who say 'its always been bad' are living in a dreamworld.
No offence to you personally tho chirps its not a pop, but you have to look at the stats! Not good
Violence has though always been a problem in London as in many urban areas. Are things getting worse it's hard to say, it seems to be and a spate of incidents suggests it is, and media hype adds fuel to the fire. Too many kids thinking they are gangsters and can take the law into their hands and solve their petty disputes with violence isn't the answer.
On reflection a lot of the crime (but not all of it) seems to result from other crime - X is a drug dealer, Y is trying to muscle in on his patch, so X decides to threaten him off and carries weapons because after all he's in a high risk occupation and where you have such crime in the first place it is inevitable that more serious crimes will follow. If so then a solution could be to hit the petty drug dealing that goes on. Take these people off the streets before their turf disputes escalate into something more serious.
As someone on here mentioned earlier - stabbings/shootings/killings happens all the time in Woolwich/Plumstead and hardly gets a mention. Why suddenly all this hoo haa now because some got fatally stabbed in Sidcup...Someone else said "its getting closer to home"? So that suggests to me that its alright if it happens in Woolwich/Plumstead area because you don't live there...?A stabbing is a stabbing it doesn't matter where it happens....its wrong.
Comments
The Stab proof vest shop
Where do you get a stab proof bum vest then... what a joke?
Walking distance from me as well. :-(
To me that is the green light to go vigilante.
No problem with that here
Then, IMO, you haven't a clue my friend, in the nicest sense :-)
You would end up with a situation with intimidating thugs running areas, exactly the situation you wouldn't want. Corruption and blackmail would skyrocket, so would 'act first, establish the truth later'. Vigilantes groups would not be white knights shining happiness over communities, but those seeking a justifiable form for violence or extortion.
The copper IS right to a certain extent. Is is not something that will change overnight, it will take a generation to change. The one group predominently to blame is not the government, not the police, but the parents. Values mean absolutely nothing to a big chunk of a generation, and there is no easy overnight answer to get that back.
'sitting on the fence' ?
'glossing over' ??
For me, the only option is tougher knife and gun laws with more police power and searches in affected areas. As someone else said, get caught carrying a knife and you serve a reasonably long-term sentence. We're not very far away from having widespread ghetto scenarios. Places you just don't think about going at night. In fact we do already have quite a few of those.
We'd probably need to build some more prisons.
Sad but true.
True, Chirpy, but the events of the last two weeks have been exceptionally violent and the attack in Lee took place at 10AM in the morning in broad daylight FFS.
A bit of rough and tumble outside the pub at 11.30PM with pint glasses or whatever is one thing (definitely not acceptable, but has always been there) but blokes running round the pub with two knives or a scumbag cutting someones throat with a glass shard is just taking things in a very worrying direction.
Its a tough one, it depends on the circumstances of killing itself, which are obviously pretty gruesome to think about. You'd hope they could make a murder charge stick but you know the defence will push hard for the lower charge.
Incidents one was in Derry , the police car pulled up outside a pub where there is a guy on the floor being savagely kicked by two other lads , one of the lads carries on the attack and then stamps on the guys head before the police jump out of the car and arrest him. There was no question over what went on or who did it as the picture was clear as day.
The second incident was also in derry and as the police van drives down the high st a group of lads walks across the road a 100 yards or so up , one of the lads drops his trousers and does a little dance for a second or two before pulling his trousers back up and walking off . The police call him over but he runs off , they then spend a while driving round trying to find him but just as they give up he appears. They arrest him and take him to the station.
The first lad gets a £110 fine for the assault
The second lad gets £100 fine for dropping his trousers and £100 for running away.
and the goverment says they've done all they can?
Chirpy is right, although in this I hope the perpetrator is charged with and if found guilty, convicted of murder. As I understand the situation he wanted to have a fight and therefore was intent on causing some level of violence, he may not have intended it to have resulted in the lad's death, but that was the consequence of his action and therefore that is the charge he should face.
As AFKA says vigilantism might sound like a satisfying solution but it creates its own problems. I wouldn't feel comfortable with gangs wandering around tooled up policing their own neighbourhoods and taking the law into their own hands, that creates intimidation and its own problems. It takes a long time to train a policeman and that's for a reason and society is best off leaving law enforcement to the experts. For a practical example of how this can go wrong think back to the anti-paedophile demonstrations in Potsmoth a few years ago - and remember that innocent people ended up being victimised - because the media and/or the demonstrators got the wrong houses or picked on people with the same or similar names. The victimised were attacked and had their houses, cars and property trashed - this included in one instance a house belonging to a paediatrician, which perhaps illustrates the sense of leaving it to vigilante mobs.
On the one side the police have to be given more power, but that creates problems, anyone remember the suss laws in the early 80s or the SPG? That resulted in elements in society - mostly young black youths feeling victimised and was a cause of rioting in inner citiy areas of London, Liverpool, Bristol etc. Sentencing must become tougher for crimes involving weapons, but deterrent is only part of the solution. The government needs to get to work on the being tough on the causes of crime side of their mantra. It's easy in British society to say everyone has an opportunity, but opportunity is greater for some than others. For ill educated school drop outs and kids from broken homes the temptation is to risk a criminal record while participating in crime and as some point out, a criminal record becomes something to be proud of, it isn't something I'd want but there is a certain recidivist culture that affords people who've done time with "respect". To an extent a lot of what needs to happen is down to society and individuals within that taking responsibility, but the government needs to ensure that a helping hand exists to get people out of societal situations that are fundamentally unaspirational. As always there are no easy solutions and media pressure creates a demand for the government to act to be seen to be doing something, and that may well mean a more draconian solution, that might make Daily Mail readers feel happier, but it won't necessarily be the right solution.
17, yes 17 stabbing incidents in london since last fridays attack at the metro bar!
I am 28, not old by a long shot, but i can tell you there wasn't this much violence when i was 18, it is getting worse, and people who say 'its always been bad' are living in a dreamworld.
No offence to you personally tho chirps its not a pop, but you have to look at the stats! Not good
Violence has though always been a problem in London as in many urban areas. Are things getting worse it's hard to say, it seems to be and a spate of incidents suggests it is, and media hype adds fuel to the fire. Too many kids thinking they are gangsters and can take the law into their hands and solve their petty disputes with violence isn't the answer.
On reflection a lot of the crime (but not all of it) seems to result from other crime - X is a drug dealer, Y is trying to muscle in on his patch, so X decides to threaten him off and carries weapons because after all he's in a high risk occupation and where you have such crime in the first place it is inevitable that more serious crimes will follow. If so then a solution could be to hit the petty drug dealing that goes on. Take these people off the streets before their turf disputes escalate into something more serious.