One of the big problems I think is the obsession with celebrity culture and also the major soap operas. These combined sources tell us that marriage is something temporary, you meet someone, you get married, you cheat on them then you get divorced, repeat and rinse. It's portayed by the tabliod press then gutter mags (heat, et al) as being the most important thing in the world, something to look up to and follow, whilst the soaps have virtually every character, cheating, stealing, lieing or worse on a regular basis. Sad as it is a huge proportion of society, teenagers in particular, define they're reality in relationship to this dross and ape it regularly.
[cite]Posted By: Friend_Or_Defoe[/cite]Back in the day you used to have a lot of under-age drinkers in pubs, but now with bouncers at most pubs and everyone getting IDed it's become a lot rarer. These kids are still going to get drunk and if they don't do it in a pub they're going to do it in the street which is more dangerous and doesn't have a bar tender telling them that they've had enough tonight. Probably barking up the wrong tree with this one though!
you can only imagine what the crime rates would be like here if guns were as easily purchased as they are in the USA. I know Some of the loons do have guns but imagine if guns were as easily accessable here like in the U.S! i dont think id leave the house
Or you could spin that on the head and say if we all had guns the vicious little thugs wouldn't have us over a barrel and decent people would feel safer walking the streets. I grew up with guns all around me and i felt a hell of a lot safer than i do today.
[cite]Posted By: SantaClaus[/cite]Or you could spin that on the head and say if we all had guns the vicious little thugs wouldn't have us over a barrel and decent people would feel safer walking the streets.
[cite]Posted By: SantaClaus[/cite]Or you could spin that on the head and say if we all had guns the vicious little thugs wouldn't have us over a barrel and decent people would feel safer walking the streets. I grew up with guns all around me and i felt a hell of a lot safer than i do today.
TBH Mate I dont think that would be the answer.
This spiralling situation is born from kids carrying knives and therefore other kids carry them to protect themselves from the other kids.........Its like a mini arms race
The USA is a bad example to use. Yes they have guns and gun crime, but the two don't necessarily relate as many think. For instance, Switzland has the highest percentage of gun ownership in the world (they don't have a standing army, but a people militia, which every fit adult male has to join and has to have a gun in their home), yet very low gun crime.
I know everybody would love it to be simple, but the problems we face are exceedingly complicated, just saying we'll have harsher sentences doesn't work, there no easy answer. I think multi-culturism, as it is in the UK, is one contributing factor. It has led to a distinct feeling of them and us for practically every single racial group (the majority white included). This undoubtedly leads to tensions and heightens existing tensions. The race card is played too often, especially by the police who see it as just another way of guaranteeing a conviction. Those on this thread, and others, who say give the police more powers really need to think about that. The police already have sufficient powers to handle every crime mentioned on here, it is a case of having the will to do so. Giving the police more and more powers just leads to more and more abuse of those powers.
As an example, the police were given powers to break up groups of people hanging around. How has this been used? Has it been used to disperse gangs who are threatening people and vandalising their surrounding, or has it been used to stop people peacefully protesting against government policy?
Unless governent scrap league tables and make tackling violent crime the priority then no powers given to the police will help, they will simply be abused in chasing whatever the current political goals are.
I'm not saying it's an answer for society as a whole but i believe there will come a point when gun crime explodes and people will feel justified in arming themselves in response (if i felt threatened i would). Anyway if the OB do there job it won't come to that but i'm not holding my breath.
Playing bloodthirsty computer games, those where knives, guns are built into the culture of the game can get into the mindset, particularly as the graphics on these games nowadays are so realistic.
With all due respect AFKA that sounds like a comment about a medium you're not too that familar with. The content of 18 rated games is much more strict that that of an 18 rated film. Besides if people who did have a screw lose and were influnced by video games they could well well be influenced by Eastenders, a McDonalds Happy Meal or even the much more grusome 'evening news'... However the issue of 18 rated games falling into the hands of the vunerable still comes back to what underpins rest of this thread. Parenting or lack there of.
While we're up in arms about these recent spate of knife crimes, since 1995 we've had a fall in violent crime in the UK (the year the PlayStation launched!) and without wishing to belittle these tragic events in a few months time this will be dismissed as a statistical anomaly. The media will be screaming about the next tragedy in order to snatch viewers ratings and advertising revenue... and we go round in cricles again.
I've played all grand theft auto games since the first one and have never had the urge to beat people up or smash cards and i really don't understand how any sane person can think that a game replicates into reality. it really does baffle me.
More recently though i have played mario kart and when driving i have often thought how useful it would be to throw a red shell at the car in front for it to get out of my way.
I don't see how it is the police's fault. How can the police help prevent kids from doing stuff? all they can do is assist in moving them along. How can the message get through to kids to stop them taking up these bad unsociable habits in the first place?
I've never actually spoken to a police officer in my life, apart from when we made tea for one working at the side of the marathon route.
Is that because i've never had any need to, as I haven't got into trouble? blaming the police is a ridiculous way out of a sorry situation. surely it needs to start before that?
the police as a whole should be respected, not generalised as 'not doing their job'. yeah i'm sure there are some who abuse their position of authority, but ultimately, why should the police have to clear up the mess that the kids and the parents have started? if the problem is sorted at the root of the cause, the police will have an easier job to do, thus spending more time on other things?
I think one reason a lot of the "have nots" turn to crime - ie drug dealing, leading onto turf wars, in turn leading to killings is the consumer society. We are bombarded with images of the rich and famous in dumb glossy mags, TV series and the newspapers. We are told this is the lifestyle we should all aspire to, and the inference is that without out it you are somehow a second rate citizen.
Those without the ability to "get on" are left feeling marginalised, and instead of being valued for what they are good at, they are patronised, and see their (often) ruthless bosses taking advantage of them - telling them there is no money for a small pay rise, while awarding themselves a fortune. Then they see those very bosses avoiding tax and getting knighted for it (stand up Sir Philip Green).
They then see the lad down the road with his flashy motor and wedges of money which he earns from dealing drugs, and think that is the only way to go to "get on". After all, drugs may lead to death, but so do guns and missiles sold by legitimate arms dealers so in their minds, what's the difference?
I know it's a bit of a wet idea, but perhaps if the truly worthy in our society were given more kudos, and heads of large institions were vilified for making people redundant just to increase already huge profits, rather than praised for their acumen, and then portrayed showing off the rewards of their "immoral" earnings, it might just make a few more people think twice before going the wrong way. At the moment the rich are pushing themselves further and further away from the rest of society, aided by the government, and the press are only too happy to aid this (as their owners are part of the "elite") by putting up immigration as the bete noir, and blaming all society's ills on Poles and Arabs etc. It might sound extreme, but Hitler did it with the Jews - tell the ignorant masses that one particular group are to blame for the problems, and they will concentrate on that while the government gets on with looking after its mates and following its own, non democratic, agenda.
Of course one other solution might be to legalise all drugs, bring them under government control, tax them at a reasonable rate and cut out the drug dealers and all that goes with it? It would leave the police a hell of a lot more time to deal with other crime too.
Well said Dan about the sports day competetive thing too, as you say, what's the difference between coming second at the egg and spoon race and coming second in the academic subjects. It would be interesting if you could write to the school and ask them where their logic comes from, and share their answer with us?
[cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]the police as a whole should be respected
Agree, but there's the whole "you earn respect" thing. Right now, I don't have much respect for them - I see them out catching people doing 40 in a 30, but they didnt give two hoots when my shed, and a neighbours garage, got broken into...
its hard to change people once they've been taught from an early age something in a certain way. habits etc, will be picked up from parents, no matter when you're 16 being told off by a policeman won't mean a jot if you've been told since you were 13 by your parents that the police don't do their job properly.
[cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]the police as a whole should be respected
Agree, but there's the whole "you earn respect" thing. Right now, I don't have much respect for them - I see them out catching people doing 40 in a 30, but they didnt give two hoots when my shed, and a neighbours garage, got broken into...
perhaps on that day in question they were investigating a murder, road accident, etc etc. who knows. I know everyone believes their own problems are the worst, and I know there is a fundamental problem with trust and respect but can you really consider all police to be the same just because on a particular day in your area they let you down?
I'm not saying its right, but perhaps they solved another crime on that day?
[cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]the police as a whole should be respected
Agree, but there's the whole "you earn respect" thing. Right now, I don't have much respect for them - I see them out catching people doing 40 in a 30, but they didnt give two hoots when my shed, and a neighbours garage, got broken into...
perhaps on that day in question they were investigating a murder, road accident, etc etc. who knows. I know everyone believes their own problems are the worst, and I know there is a fundamental problem with trust and respect but can you really consider all police to be the same just because on a particular day in your area they let you down?
I'm not saying its right, but perhaps they solved another crime on that day?
They could of come round later, or the following day... my broken lock, and cupboard in the shed, with potential finger prints on it wasnt going anywhere...
[cite]Posted By: pete_tong1[/cite]If any politian would say they want to leaglise all drugs they would be assinated. Not by who you would think.
I know, there would be several groups - knitting needles in the back from middle aged Daily Mail readers, a cap in the ass from the Yardies, or a poison tipped umbrella from his own security men..
Suzzi good luck to you re the OB. Cant say i have any respect at all for them. They lost mine years ago and every dealing i have with them (no matter what side of the line im on) just makes my contempt more solid.
They do a job which overall is alomost an impossible task. It is my opinion (note that word) that they do it inceasingly badly.
Its such a generilisation saying "The OB" or "The Police" like every single police officer is exactly the same. It's like saying every football fan is a football hooligan which we all hate. Unless you mean the bureacracy that surrounds what the police HAVE to do which comes down from the government in terms of targets etc - if so, i agree with you.
I imagine the majority of the police actually went into the police to do a job and at least try and make a difference rather than joining the force to make themsleves some power hungry beings.
With my grandad being a copper and currently my best mate being one i suppose i have more affection than most for what they are doing.
The trouble is the police don't help themselves. They always seem to go for "soft" targets rather than those the majority of the public would prefer them to pursue.
For example in Kent the police manhandled an 82 year old man out of his car because they considered he was driving too slowly on his way back from Midnight Mass! This man was a War veteran and former Mayor of Gravesend! Was he really more of a danger to the public at large than the drunk, drugged people turning out of Amadaeus a few miles down the road at the same time? Perhaps a greater police presence in the area of these venues would ensure decent, innocent people like Rob Knox are not murdered whilst out for a drink with friends and family.
There is a Church and next to that a school a few hundred yards from my house. One Saturday afternoon there were FIVE police officers hiding in the church car park trying to nick speeding motorists! That same afternoon an arsonist burned down part of the school. Plenty of residents had tried without success to get the police to tackle the vandalism occurring in the area. They didn't want to know. Like Medders my garage was once broken into. No attempt to take prints or investigate just a crime number for insurance purposes and a leaflet about victim support.
On another occasion I was driving down Kidbrooke Lane with my wife and children and had commenced pulling into Well Hall Road when a car full of youths, some of whom were hanging out the windows, came speeding at 60 MPH plus down Well Hall Road from the right pursued by a police car. I had no option but to hurriedly reverse into Kidbrooke Lane to avoid being hit. At this point the police abandoned the chase and approached me. They then asked me if i'd been drinking (which I hadn't) and insisted on breathalysing me. At this point my two young daughters were crying. I politely asked why my family and I were being subjected to this since they knew only too well why I had reversed back into the road. They said they get a lot of drink drive nickings there.
My point is that it was evidently far easier to attempt to nick a man with his family rather than the youths they were originally after.
My brother was the victim of an unprovoked attack and had his nose broken. I was called out and took him to report it. The response of the desk officer: "why are you reporting this you should be grateful you weren't stabbed."
I am a law abiding person who has worked all his life but I'm afraid that I have little or no respect for the police for the reasons given.
Comments
Excellent point FOD. Hadnt thought of that....
Dont waste your time GH
Yeah, that certainly seems to work in the USA!
TBH Mate I dont think that would be the answer.
This spiralling situation is born from kids carrying knives and therefore other kids carry them to protect themselves from the other kids.........Its like a mini arms race
I know everybody would love it to be simple, but the problems we face are exceedingly complicated, just saying we'll have harsher sentences doesn't work, there no easy answer. I think multi-culturism, as it is in the UK, is one contributing factor. It has led to a distinct feeling of them and us for practically every single racial group (the majority white included). This undoubtedly leads to tensions and heightens existing tensions. The race card is played too often, especially by the police who see it as just another way of guaranteeing a conviction. Those on this thread, and others, who say give the police more powers really need to think about that. The police already have sufficient powers to handle every crime mentioned on here, it is a case of having the will to do so. Giving the police more and more powers just leads to more and more abuse of those powers.
As an example, the police were given powers to break up groups of people hanging around. How has this been used? Has it been used to disperse gangs who are threatening people and vandalising their surrounding, or has it been used to stop people peacefully protesting against government policy?
Unless governent scrap league tables and make tackling violent crime the priority then no powers given to the police will help, they will simply be abused in chasing whatever the current political goals are.
With all due respect AFKA that sounds like a comment about a medium you're not too that familar with. The content of 18 rated games is much more strict that that of an 18 rated film. Besides if people who did have a screw lose and were influnced by video games they could well well be influenced by Eastenders, a McDonalds Happy Meal or even the much more grusome 'evening news'... However the issue of 18 rated games falling into the hands of the vunerable still comes back to what underpins rest of this thread. Parenting or lack there of.
While we're up in arms about these recent spate of knife crimes, since 1995 we've had a fall in violent crime in the UK (the year the PlayStation launched!) and without wishing to belittle these tragic events in a few months time this will be dismissed as a statistical anomaly. The media will be screaming about the next tragedy in order to snatch viewers ratings and advertising revenue... and we go round in cricles again.
More recently though i have played mario kart and when driving i have often thought how useful it would be to throw a red shell at the car in front for it to get out of my way.
I've never actually spoken to a police officer in my life, apart from when we made tea for one working at the side of the marathon route.
Is that because i've never had any need to, as I haven't got into trouble? blaming the police is a ridiculous way out of a sorry situation. surely it needs to start before that?
the police as a whole should be respected, not generalised as 'not doing their job'. yeah i'm sure there are some who abuse their position of authority, but ultimately, why should the police have to clear up the mess that the kids and the parents have started? if the problem is sorted at the root of the cause, the police will have an easier job to do, thus spending more time on other things?
Those without the ability to "get on" are left feeling marginalised, and instead of being valued for what they are good at, they are patronised, and see their (often) ruthless bosses taking advantage of them - telling them there is no money for a small pay rise, while awarding themselves a fortune. Then they see those very bosses avoiding tax and getting knighted for it (stand up Sir Philip Green).
They then see the lad down the road with his flashy motor and wedges of money which he earns from dealing drugs, and think that is the only way to go to "get on". After all, drugs may lead to death, but so do guns and missiles sold by legitimate arms dealers so in their minds, what's the difference?
I know it's a bit of a wet idea, but perhaps if the truly worthy in our society were given more kudos, and heads of large institions were vilified for making people redundant just to increase already huge profits, rather than praised for their acumen, and then portrayed showing off the rewards of their "immoral" earnings, it might just make a few more people think twice before going the wrong way. At the moment the rich are pushing themselves further and further away from the rest of society, aided by the government, and the press are only too happy to aid this (as their owners are part of the "elite") by putting up immigration as the bete noir, and blaming all society's ills on Poles and Arabs etc. It might sound extreme, but Hitler did it with the Jews - tell the ignorant masses that one particular group are to blame for the problems, and they will concentrate on that while the government gets on with looking after its mates and following its own, non democratic, agenda.
Of course one other solution might be to legalise all drugs, bring them under government control, tax them at a reasonable rate and cut out the drug dealers and all that goes with it? It would leave the police a hell of a lot more time to deal with other crime too.
Well said Dan about the sports day competetive thing too, as you say, what's the difference between coming second at the egg and spoon race and coming second in the academic subjects. It would be interesting if you could write to the school and ask them where their logic comes from, and share their answer with us?
Agree, but there's the whole "you earn respect" thing. Right now, I don't have much respect for them - I see them out catching people doing 40 in a 30, but they didnt give two hoots when my shed, and a neighbours garage, got broken into...
perhaps on that day in question they were investigating a murder, road accident, etc etc. who knows. I know everyone believes their own problems are the worst, and I know there is a fundamental problem with trust and respect but can you really consider all police to be the same just because on a particular day in your area they let you down?
I'm not saying its right, but perhaps they solved another crime on that day?
Good point PT!
They could of come round later, or the following day... my broken lock, and cupboard in the shed, with potential finger prints on it wasnt going anywhere...
I know, there would be several groups - knitting needles in the back from middle aged Daily Mail readers, a cap in the ass from the Yardies, or a poison tipped umbrella from his own security men..
Written while high as a kite on charlie...
They do a job which overall is alomost an impossible task. It is my opinion (note that word) that they do it inceasingly badly.
: 0..)
The incident in Bromley was done by a group of 30 years, so it's not just kids carrying knifes.
I imagine the majority of the police actually went into the police to do a job and at least try and make a difference rather than joining the force to make themsleves some power hungry beings.
With my grandad being a copper and currently my best mate being one i suppose i have more affection than most for what they are doing.
For example in Kent the police manhandled an 82 year old man out of his car because they considered he was driving too slowly on his way back from Midnight Mass! This man was a War veteran and former Mayor of Gravesend! Was he really more of a danger to the public at large than the drunk, drugged people turning out of Amadaeus a few miles down the road at the same time? Perhaps a greater police presence in the area of these venues would ensure decent, innocent people like Rob Knox are not murdered whilst out for a drink with friends and family.
There is a Church and next to that a school a few hundred yards from my house. One Saturday afternoon there were FIVE police officers hiding in the church car park trying to nick speeding motorists! That same afternoon an arsonist burned down part of the school. Plenty of residents had tried without success to get the police to tackle the vandalism occurring in the area. They didn't want to know. Like Medders my garage was once broken into. No attempt to take prints or investigate just a crime number for insurance purposes and a leaflet about victim support.
On another occasion I was driving down Kidbrooke Lane with my wife and children and had commenced pulling into Well Hall Road when a car full of youths, some of whom were hanging out the windows, came speeding at 60 MPH plus down Well Hall Road from the right pursued by a police car. I had no option but to hurriedly reverse into Kidbrooke Lane to avoid being hit. At this point the police abandoned the chase and approached me. They then asked me if i'd been drinking (which I hadn't) and insisted on breathalysing me. At this point my two young daughters were crying. I politely asked why my family and I were being subjected to this since they knew only too well why I had reversed back into the road. They said they get a lot of drink drive nickings there.
My point is that it was evidently far easier to attempt to nick a man with his family rather than the youths they were originally after.
My brother was the victim of an unprovoked attack and had his nose broken. I was called out and took him to report it. The response of the desk officer: "why are you reporting this you should be grateful you weren't stabbed."
I am a law abiding person who has worked all his life but I'm afraid that I have little or no respect for the police for the reasons given.