[cite]Posted By: Solidgone[/cite]As someone on here mentioned earlier - stabbings/shootings/killings happens all the time in Woolwich/Plumstead and hardly gets a mention. Why suddenly all this hoo haa now because some got fatally stabbed in Sidcup...Someone else said "its getting closer to home"? So that suggests to me that its alright if it happens in Woolwich/Plumstead area because you don't live there...?A stabbing is a stabbing it doesn't matter where it happens....its wrong.
I agree, I guess if it happens in the suburbs it's more news worthy... (house prices?!)
I live in the suburbs and remember stabbings happening 5+ years ago around here with out making the national press. It's not as new a problem as people make it out to be.
Apparently 15 people armed with knifes stormed in to a pub in Bromley (well Bickley), on Monday threatening to kill everyone inside, 5 people got stabbed.
10 years ago, it wasnt as bad as this, defo not. Its getting out of hand, 17 stabbings in 5 days, no way it was as bad before, people should wake up and stop turning the other cheek.
[quote][cite]Posted By: buckshee[/cite]was watching one of these street wars fly on the wall programmes last night and there were two incidents which made me astounded.
Incidents one was in Derry , the police car pulled up outside a pub where there is a guy on the floor being savagely kicked by two other lads , one of the lads carries on the attack and then stamps on the guys head before the police jump out of the car and arrest him. There was no question over what went on or who did it as the picture was clear as day.
The second incident was also in derry and as the police van drives down the high st a group of lads walks across the road a 100 yards or so up , one of the lads drops his trousers and does a little dance for a second or two before pulling his trousers back up and walking off . The police call him over but he runs off , they then spend a while driving round trying to find him but just as they give up he appears. They arrest him and take him to the station.
The first lad gets a £110 fine for the assault
The second lad gets £100 fine for dropping his trousers and £100 for running away.
and the goverment says they've done all they can?[/quote]
my mate gets £375.00 for breaking a lightbulb?????????????? figure that shit out
Personally I think the softly softly approach that BFR is suggesting is what has got us here in the 1st place.....
These teenagers know that if they caught with a knife (unlikely in the 1st place) nothing will happen through the law, and that their parents cant do anything. In my day my old man would have knocked 7 bells of shit out of me, but he couldn't do that these days just as schools etc cant punish kids with more than a detention, or ultimately expulsion.... Like they care...These kids don't want to be at school in the 1st place with so many of them in certain areas going through school knowing they leave and can live comfortably on the dole.....
There's are reason why people from the areas he's mentioned (Brixton, Toxteth, St Paul's etc) were being targeted by the police and that's because they were committing the majority of the crimes.....The only reason the riots happened was that white liberal middle class do-gooders, with a guilt complex carried over from the slave trade, said that the Police were being racially discriminatory or members of the community screaming "Racist".....
No they're just targeting the people who perpetrate the crimes. Rather like targeting white men in and around football matches...Why because white people are in the majority when it came / comes to football trouble.
A fair few hundred people outside Tescos last night where the police held a meeting. I think it started at 7 last night but she didnt get there till gone 8 and was there over a good hour.
I havent seen one of those called for charlton - i've just posted a link about a man being beaten to death in a street near me last week by a 19 year old.
I walked past it and it stopped to listen to what was being said, but left after getting bored with the 5 minutes of spin and party line from the senior policeman speaking
Spot on Dan!!!!!
Don't know how we can get our society back on track but one things for sure the softly softly ,do-gooders,lets ban competitive sport,your all racist track doesn't work and has been over tried for far to long! Its far to obvious that respect in any shape or form is missing from a large part of this country and its time to get it back. fcuk knows how though.
No idea either GHE...All I can, I feel, is to make sure my two grow up knowing right from wrong and how and when to get out of a situation when theyre 13+....Sad because I would have liked to have taught them to stand up for themselves and others, but from seeing what is happening when this just gets you into life threatening situations, Im going to have to teach them to ignore whats happening to someone else and get away as quickly as they can....As much as it pains me to say it.
We have used the forum to death over the last few weeks of who and how it can be fixed and yes it will cost money and at a time when all of us are screaming for taxes to be cut on fuel and for a cap to be put on energy providers increases.
But i would gladly pay for the fuel and heating if the government come out and said they would put the taxes into more prisons for these scum and harsher sentancing.
my boy is only 6 what the feck will it be like in the next 10 years if we dont sort it now.
I am with MCS i was a little fecker years ago in woolwich in and out of scrapes and run ins with the OB and other teenagers but no one died or even got close i can remember having a blade pulled on me twice in my whole time growing up in sth london.
these days they would stick you with it no question asked
why cos there is no deterrent what so ever
why because people have said the state of our prisons and being banged up for 22 or 23 hours a day is against their human rights and that they didnt know their dady and their mummy was on crack.
Wah wah wah wah my heart bleeds feck em send em to jail with no tvs no perks shite food breaking their backs cleaning up after their ferrel pals who have turned half decent housing estates that were always tough to grow up on into no go areas
get more OB not CSO more Prisons tougher sentencing and put the parents of these maggots in jail instead of asbo families
If Joe gets out of line it is up to me to bring him in to line and if i fail as a parent there needs to be punishments for me.
but let me tell you i wont fail he wont be an angel as it is not in him but he is polite and respectfull and the only challenge he makes is to his parents not teachers and others that he is meant to listen to and respect
The sooner they clear the flowers outside the Metro, the better. Every afternoon and evening it is now becoming the mecca for 12-16yr olds to hang around with their hoods up all evening. They are not there to grieve / pay respects, but its becoming a meeting point, place of interest, like the whole thing has glamourised it.
As an aside, i notice the Charlton shirts with messages on have been moved / gone.
But half the problem is the parents, a mate of mine was having a bit of a barney with a bloke outside the blokes house and his mum actually came out with a knife to give to her son. If thats the parents what hope have the kids got?
When you see some of the mums in Woolwich with their kids it's little wonder they grow up like they do with no respect for anyone!
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]The sooner they clear the flowers outside the Metro, the better. Every afternoon and evening it is now becoming the mecca for 12-16yr olds to hang around with their hoods up all evening. They are not there to grieve / pay respects, but its becoming a meeting point, place of interest, like the whole thing has glamourised it.
As an aside, i notice the Charlton shirts with messages on have been moved / gone.
Only cos they want to get seen on the telly. Probably didnt even know him.
The flowers are still there for Jimmy Mizen as i drove past on saturday.
[cite]Posted By: MCS[/cite]10 years ago, it wasnt as bad as this, defo not. Its getting out of hand, 17 stabbings in 5 days, no way it was as bad before, people should wake up and stop turning the other cheek.
I agree it's getting out of hand, but the two major incidents of the last week are unlikely to be repeated too often. Those 17 will average out over the year to be a slightly above average figure, but not a major increase on last year. Well, I definitely hope it will!
I'm not argiung for a softly-softly approach, just that we need to remember that a more aggressive policing policy which in the past did not work won't work again. Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat its mistakes...
"The only reason the riots happened was that white liberal middle class do-gooders, with a guilt complex carried over from the slave trade, said that the Police were being racially discriminatory or members of the community screaming "Racist"....."
Utter crap, I suggest you read the Scarman report which laid the blame for the inner city riots on deep seated socio-economic problems that were exacerbated by over-zealous policing. When a few years later I was at Uni I had a black friend who was studying to be a lawyer. He was from Hackney and once the listed the number of times he'd been stopped, searched, or had friends who'd been treated similarly. When compared to his white friends, or to my experience (stopped maybe once or twice) it was clear that there was a racial disparity in the way he/other Afro-Caribbeans and white people were being treated. Consequently despite wanting to be a lawyer he grew up to distrust the police and I imagine a lot of his contemporaries did too.
However you do win the award for the cheap Daily Mail knee-jerk reaction of the day.
Looking at the US they have far stricter sentencing which includes executing people or whole of life tariffs for murder, rape and even aggravated assault, and yet they still have far more crime than we do, including more violent crime - around 10,000 plus people in the US are killed every year by guns alone, per capita that is much higher than the UK and anywhere in Europe. The lock 'em up and throw away the key policy which does I grant you make for muscular sounding government therefore doesn't work. Part of the solution is though tougher policing/sentencing, but it has to be focused and directed properly - in the 80s it wasn't always and its notable that when the policing policy changed the riots stopped, or it might have been that Thatcher was finally deposed, you decide.
If say drug/organised crime is at the heart of some of this then the police need to go after dealers before their turf disputes turn murderous and I don't think anyone (other than the dealers) would have a problem with that. Secondly it's easy in Dail Mail land to suggest that these people all study hard at school, respect their elders, then go on to uni or get jobs etc, but many of these kids are coming from broken homes and often in these communities crime by peer groups is seen as a viable career alternative with a police record being part of the risk/reward strategy, plus there are some that think that a criminal record is something to be proud of. In the last couple of decades as a society we've offered less and less to school leavers - there are fewer apprenticeship schemes around than there once were and that is part of the problem.
You mean Baron Scarman the well know liberal......??
Its such a shame when you need to try and attempt to give more weight to your well put arguments by saying something like "However you do win the award for the cheap Daily Mail knee-jerk reaction of the day". Then again its not the 1st time you have felt the need to fling a sweeping generalisations around is it?
I could counter your points, but just cant be bothered getting into it this sort of thing with you, like so many others on here have had the misfortune of doing, only to provide you with a soapbox for your rhetoric and name calling.
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]Spot on Dan
We have used the forum to death over the last few weeks of who and how it can be fixed and yes it will cost money and at a time when all of us are screaming for taxes to be cut on fuel and for a cap to be put on energy providers increases.
But i would gladly pay for the fuel and heating if the government come out and said they would put the taxes into more prisons for these scum and harsher sentancing.
why cos there is no deterrent what so ever
why because people have said the state of our prisons and being banged up for 22 or 23 hours a day is against their human rights and that they didnt know their dady and their mummy was on crack.
get more OB not CSO more Prisons tougher sentencing and put the parents of these maggots in jail instead of asbo families
There are 10,000 more police in London than a decade or so ago (making 35,000 police in Greater London) and Ken Livingstone wanted a further 1,000, again there is still crime...
"why because people have said the state of our prisons and being banged up for 22 or 23 hours a day is against their human rights and that they didnt know their dady and their mummy was on crack."
Besides the Daily Mail Who says that? Are you not at risk of repeating urban myths?
Then again its not the 1st time you have felt the need to fling a sweeping generalisations around is it?
I could counter your points, but just cant be bothered getting into it this sort of thing with you, like so many others on here have had the misfortune of doing, only to provide you with a soapbox for your rhetoric and name calling.
...........
I note the irony in your use of "sweeping generalisations", I doubt you have though.
I made my points quite clearly, however it's you who has responded with rhetoric.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Links don't work BFR
They do on my screen...
In case they don't the first points to an increase to record numbers of locked up prisoners (dated Feb this year). The second is a statement from Ken Livingstone that he wanted 1,000 more police, that since he was elected in 2000 there have been 10,000 more police making a total of 35K police in Greater London. The links don't matter as such, just that I thought I'd inject a few facts into the debate.
So what sweeping generalisations was I making BFR prey tell?
Me? Rhetoric? LMFAO...... Oh that's rich!!
Its my point of view....Are we not allowed to have a point of view that differs from yours without the fear of being branded as some sort of Daily Mail Lemming, as seems to be your fall back to more centre right / less liberal beliefs that some of us have?
I note with a huge great big smile on my face that your starting to attempt to be patronising.....I'd suggest you try a hell of a lot harder as all your doing is showing your true colours (as usual).
Still if it makes you feel better about yourself, then who am I to stop you plumping up your own self-esteem.
"Although widely regarded as a liberal, he upheld the blasphemy conviction of Gay News (1979), punctured the GLC's "Fare's Fair" low-cost public transport policy (1981), and supported the banning of trade unions at GCHQ (1985)."
Very liberal and he was appointed to the job of investigating the inner city riots by that arch commie Margaret Thatcher...
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Links don't work BFR
They do on my screen...
In case they don't the first points to an increase to record numbers of locked up prisoners (dated Feb this year). The second is a statement from Ken Livingstone that he wanted 1,000 more police, that since he was elected in 2000 there have been 10,000 more police making a total of 35K police in Greater London. The links don't matter as such, just that I thought I'd inject a few facts into the debate.
Comments
I live in the suburbs and remember stabbings happening 5+ years ago around here with out making the national press. It's not as new a problem as people make it out to be.
Apparently 15 people armed with knifes stormed in to a pub in Bromley (well Bickley), on Monday threatening to kill everyone inside, 5 people got stabbed.
...
From the 12 and 13 year olds who beat that kid to death because he only had a tenner on him up to a 19 year old in Curb_It's link above.
As a relatively young 25 year old, i cant imagine me or anyone i knew, friends or not going to these extremes when 'having a scrap'.
I've seen my fair share of fights but never, ever ever did i ever think it would get to the point of murder.
It is very scary.
Incidents one was in Derry , the police car pulled up outside a pub where there is a guy on the floor being savagely kicked by two other lads , one of the lads carries on the attack and then stamps on the guys head before the police jump out of the car and arrest him. There was no question over what went on or who did it as the picture was clear as day.
The second incident was also in derry and as the police van drives down the high st a group of lads walks across the road a 100 yards or so up , one of the lads drops his trousers and does a little dance for a second or two before pulling his trousers back up and walking off . The police call him over but he runs off , they then spend a while driving round trying to find him but just as they give up he appears. They arrest him and take him to the station.
The first lad gets a £110 fine for the assault
The second lad gets £100 fine for dropping his trousers and £100 for running away.
and the goverment says they've done all they can?[/quote]
my mate gets £375.00 for breaking a lightbulb?????????????? figure that shit out
These teenagers know that if they caught with a knife (unlikely in the 1st place) nothing will happen through the law, and that their parents cant do anything. In my day my old man would have knocked 7 bells of shit out of me, but he couldn't do that these days just as schools etc cant punish kids with more than a detention, or ultimately expulsion.... Like they care...These kids don't want to be at school in the 1st place with so many of them in certain areas going through school knowing they leave and can live comfortably on the dole.....
There's are reason why people from the areas he's mentioned (Brixton, Toxteth, St Paul's etc) were being targeted by the police and that's because they were committing the majority of the crimes.....The only reason the riots happened was that white liberal middle class do-gooders, with a guilt complex carried over from the slave trade, said that the Police were being racially discriminatory or members of the community screaming "Racist".....
No they're just targeting the people who perpetrate the crimes. Rather like targeting white men in and around football matches...Why because white people are in the majority when it came / comes to football trouble.
I havent seen one of those called for charlton - i've just posted a link about a man being beaten to death in a street near me last week by a 19 year old.
Don't know how we can get our society back on track but one things for sure the softly softly ,do-gooders,lets ban competitive sport,your all racist track doesn't work and has been over tried for far to long! Its far to obvious that respect in any shape or form is missing from a large part of this country and its time to get it back. fcuk knows how though.
We have used the forum to death over the last few weeks of who and how it can be fixed and yes it will cost money and at a time when all of us are screaming for taxes to be cut on fuel and for a cap to be put on energy providers increases.
But i would gladly pay for the fuel and heating if the government come out and said they would put the taxes into more prisons for these scum and harsher sentancing.
my boy is only 6 what the feck will it be like in the next 10 years if we dont sort it now.
I am with MCS i was a little fecker years ago in woolwich in and out of scrapes and run ins with the OB and other teenagers but no one died or even got close i can remember having a blade pulled on me twice in my whole time growing up in sth london.
these days they would stick you with it no question asked
why cos there is no deterrent what so ever
why because people have said the state of our prisons and being banged up for 22 or 23 hours a day is against their human rights and that they didnt know their dady and their mummy was on crack.
Wah wah wah wah my heart bleeds feck em send em to jail with no tvs no perks shite food breaking their backs cleaning up after their ferrel pals who have turned half decent housing estates that were always tough to grow up on into no go areas
get more OB not CSO more Prisons tougher sentencing and put the parents of these maggots in jail instead of asbo families
If Joe gets out of line it is up to me to bring him in to line and if i fail as a parent there needs to be punishments for me.
but let me tell you i wont fail he wont be an angel as it is not in him but he is polite and respectfull and the only challenge he makes is to his parents not teachers and others that he is meant to listen to and respect
As an aside, i notice the Charlton shirts with messages on have been moved / gone.
When you see some of the mums in Woolwich with their kids it's little wonder they grow up like they do with no respect for anyone!
Only cos they want to get seen on the telly. Probably didnt even know him.
The flowers are still there for Jimmy Mizen as i drove past on saturday.
"The only reason the riots happened was that white liberal middle class do-gooders, with a guilt complex carried over from the slave trade, said that the Police were being racially discriminatory or members of the community screaming "Racist"....."
Utter crap, I suggest you read the Scarman report which laid the blame for the inner city riots on deep seated socio-economic problems that were exacerbated by over-zealous policing. When a few years later I was at Uni I had a black friend who was studying to be a lawyer. He was from Hackney and once the listed the number of times he'd been stopped, searched, or had friends who'd been treated similarly. When compared to his white friends, or to my experience (stopped maybe once or twice) it was clear that there was a racial disparity in the way he/other Afro-Caribbeans and white people were being treated. Consequently despite wanting to be a lawyer he grew up to distrust the police and I imagine a lot of his contemporaries did too.
However you do win the award for the cheap Daily Mail knee-jerk reaction of the day.
Looking at the US they have far stricter sentencing which includes executing people or whole of life tariffs for murder, rape and even aggravated assault, and yet they still have far more crime than we do, including more violent crime - around 10,000 plus people in the US are killed every year by guns alone, per capita that is much higher than the UK and anywhere in Europe. The lock 'em up and throw away the key policy which does I grant you make for muscular sounding government therefore doesn't work. Part of the solution is though tougher policing/sentencing, but it has to be focused and directed properly - in the 80s it wasn't always and its notable that when the policing policy changed the riots stopped, or it might have been that Thatcher was finally deposed, you decide.
If say drug/organised crime is at the heart of some of this then the police need to go after dealers before their turf disputes turn murderous and I don't think anyone (other than the dealers) would have a problem with that. Secondly it's easy in Dail Mail land to suggest that these people all study hard at school, respect their elders, then go on to uni or get jobs etc, but many of these kids are coming from broken homes and often in these communities crime by peer groups is seen as a viable career alternative with a police record being part of the risk/reward strategy, plus there are some that think that a criminal record is something to be proud of. In the last couple of decades as a society we've offered less and less to school leavers - there are fewer apprenticeship schemes around than there once were and that is part of the problem.
Its such a shame when you need to try and attempt to give more weight to your well put arguments by saying something like "However you do win the award for the cheap Daily Mail knee-jerk reaction of the day". Then again its not the 1st time you have felt the need to fling a sweeping generalisations around is it?
I could counter your points, but just cant be bothered getting into it this sort of thing with you, like so many others on here have had the misfortune of doing, only to provide you with a soapbox for your rhetoric and name calling.
Prison numbers reach a record high:
http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/subsection.asp?id=1274
So currently 82K people behind bars, the British government/judicial system is locking up more people, and yet there is still crime...
http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_release.jsp?releaseid=15492
There are 10,000 more police in London than a decade or so ago (making 35,000 police in Greater London) and Ken Livingstone wanted a further 1,000, again there is still crime...
"why because people have said the state of our prisons and being banged up for 22 or 23 hours a day is against their human rights and that they didnt know their dady and their mummy was on crack."
Besides the Daily Mail Who says that? Are you not at risk of repeating urban myths?
I think its so messed up that i don't know if i can agree and or disagree with either of them.
Shows just how difficult it is to sort these things out.
I could counter your points, but just cant be bothered getting into it this sort of thing with you, like so many others on here have had the misfortune of doing, only to provide you with a soapbox for your rhetoric and name calling.
...........
I note the irony in your use of "sweeping generalisations", I doubt you have though.
I made my points quite clearly, however it's you who has responded with rhetoric.
Have another go and this time try harder...
They do on my screen...
In case they don't the first points to an increase to record numbers of locked up prisoners (dated Feb this year). The second is a statement from Ken Livingstone that he wanted 1,000 more police, that since he was elected in 2000 there have been 10,000 more police making a total of 35K police in Greater London. The links don't matter as such, just that I thought I'd inject a few facts into the debate.
Me? Rhetoric? LMFAO...... Oh that's rich!!
Its my point of view....Are we not allowed to have a point of view that differs from yours without the fear of being branded as some sort of Daily Mail Lemming, as seems to be your fall back to more centre right / less liberal beliefs that some of us have?
I note with a huge great big smile on my face that your starting to attempt to be patronising.....I'd suggest you try a hell of a lot harder as all your doing is showing your true colours (as usual).
Still if it makes you feel better about yourself, then who am I to stop you plumping up your own self-esteem.
Indeed. No need for it. Pathetic!
Oops Dan doesn't do sweeping generalisations...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Scarman
"Although widely regarded as a liberal, he upheld the blasphemy conviction of Gay News (1979), punctured the GLC's "Fare's Fair" low-cost public transport policy (1981), and supported the banning of trade unions at GCHQ (1985)."
Very liberal and he was appointed to the job of investigating the inner city riots by that arch commie Margaret Thatcher...
They work on mine now.
I think you must have edited as I posted.