Suzi cant agree mate. There are camera all over the place re speeding so the Ob should leave it there. They should be back on the streets and thats that.
Speeding or stabbing ? one is premeditated there other isnt.
[cite]Posted By: SE10Addick[/cite]Give it time and we will be having more and more gated communities in this country.
we're all becoming more and more polarised.
As awful as it sounds, and not something I'd have said before I was a parent, but if I had the choice of living in a gated community I'd probably take it.
Say police are just walking the streets, randomly stopping people for knifes in well known areas etc.
1.) They get abuse for abusing their powers and stopping anyone and then a street goes to the papers moaning that a 10 year old has just been mowed down by a speeding motorist in their area. They shout from the rooftops "More police should be watching speeding cars to stop things like this thing happening"
2.) Police concentrate on speeding motorists and people think it is pointless while at the same time people get stabbed in broad daylight and people go mad once again "Why are the police looking at speeding when people are getting stabbed on our streets?"
What are they meant to do, should we employ more police? Should we pay more tax to get more police? Are the police their but too busy doing paperwork?
Honestly, i don't have any answers but its a thankless task and nobody is ever going to be happy, especially when a specific incident affects you/your area personally.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]Suzi cant agree mate. There are camera all over the place re speeding so the Ob should leave it there. They should be back on the streets and thats that.
Speeding or stabbing ? one is premeditated there other isnt.
Its all about meeting quotas though isnt it? Driving offences..Easy to prove and provide little or no paperwork.
Come on, lets be honest. The cops concentrating on speeding is a bit of a cop out.
I'm a serial speeder, on both normal roads and on motorways, as i'm sure most on here are. I've never once been stopped, and could count on one hand the amount of times i've passed hiding patrol cars on motorways, or hiding behind vans with hand cameras in the last ten years.
Yes speeders do get stopped, on the rare occassion its for something minor and the copper is being an arse, but its not a massive issue and i believe only takes up a small percentage of police man-hours.
This thing about "black kids and no fathers" i think is insulting to Black mums and single parents. In my working life todate ihave worked with many single mums who have been "black" and i have found them to be not only very very hard working(some having more than one job) they are comunity oreintated, strict with their kids and try like hell to not only bring them up correctly but give em a better life.
This single parent thing is just another blind alley in my opinion. At best its just another element in the cause.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Back in 1815 Wellington described the British Army as the scum of the earth. That was then, this is now.
The last thing the army wants is a load of unwilling recruits with no desire to be soldiers/Saliors/Airman, no discipline or fitness and quite likely drug or drink problems. They already have enough problems with the squaddies they have without having to sort out a load of degenerates.
If you want an elite force, which is what the British armed forces are, then making them take the dregs won't help.
If you want to bring back national service then fine. I'm too old but many of you under 30 can still go and spend two years in the forces, fighting in Iraq and Afganistan or peace keeping in Bosnia or Sierra Leone.
I salute the guys and girls who do it for their guts and commitment. Do they want or deserve to have some hoodie kid (a cliche I know) beside them in the front line?
I'd imagine that national service would only provide the forces with more of the very people you say that they don't need.
I was trying to suggest a more positive possible solution to the problem. Perhaps investment in an infrastructure for the forces that could take on people that might just need a sense of direction or purpose could produce a decent human being that has seen something of the world.
The last thing society wants is a load of unwilling delinquents with no desire to be a part of it in a good way.
Some people deserve to go to prison and we will always have that. Some people may well be able to turn their lives around that is what I am saying - a combination of prison, police, parole services, legal systems and social services for each of these people might just be an absurdly large mix of bodies with different agendas and an overall expense that might be better dealt with within one service. Those that could potentially become bad - let's see if we can straighten them out, if not then they go to the real dumping ground that is prison.
Drink & drugs are a massive problem in that they can be seen as the ultimate "end" in terms of enjoyment. I can't think of the last social event I went to where alcohol wasn't involved. They are a quick way to get yourself into another state of feeling and quick fixes need further quick fixes and will never provide a longer term solution. I should add that I drink regularly and on quite a few nights out, too much. On those nights I might have a bit of a laugh, but with it I can go months without really knowing how a friend is doing or what is going on in their lives. If that is the case for me, perhaps it escalates to society in general - are we really that connected?
Anyway I am waffling now, I think I am saying that finger pointing and dismissive thinking is too easy. If we are part of society and society has a problem then we are part of the problem too.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Come on, lets be honest. The cops concentrating on speeding is a bit of a cop out.
I'm a serial speeder, on both normal roads and on motorways, as i'm sure most on here are. I've never once been stopped, and could count on one hand the amount of times i've passed hiding patrol cars on motorways, or hiding behind vans with hand cameras in the last ten years.
Yes speeders do get stopped, on the rare occassion its for something minor and the copper is being an arse, but its not a massive issue and i believe only takes up a small percentage of police man-hours.
I just think its bitter people that speed, get caught and think they've been massively unfairly treated, and therefore blame the police for catching them when they should be out doing something more serious. what they fail to understand is possibly around the corner is a person waiting to walk into the road in front of their car and be killed instantly. its a crime, no more or less a crime than any other and the police are helping prevent it. Speed cameras are there to deter speeders (yeah ok there is a cash element involved) but are they really duping anyone? they go off you're doing 45 in a 40 zone, you carry on going 45 for the rest of your journey, hardly a lesson learnt and potentially you coudl have hit someone before or after you went through the camera thing. they are there as a deterrent, to stop people driving so fast when they shouldn't.
its lazy like you say Danny to blame police stopping speeders for stopping people stabbing others, but at the same time, is it such a bad thing they're potentially stopping a crime? just because it might inconvenience you for getting somewhere 10 mins slower than you would if you'd have gone faster than you should or make a journey a hell of a lot more expensive as you were fined? its people that downgrade their own crimes that don't help the situation. 'I only broke the law a little bit' isn't ok. its wrong, and the sooner everyone admits it/agrees the better.
Charlton Dan - Thank you for your considered response, although our views may be polarised I am glad that we can stay on the right side of AFKA by disagreeing civilly and not hurling insults.
For the record, I did not presume that you grew up in a middle-class oasis and am aware that Colfes is certainly more egalitarian that Eltham College or Dulwich College but, all the same, despite having ethnic students it would be fair to say (as you did) that these would be from better off families (presumably Asian rather than Afro-Carribean) rather than black kids from sink estates that flood the nations comprehensives.
The thing with the black kids in London, and the same applies to the Pacific Islander kids that we have in the state school system here, is that these lads grow up at 13 or 14 and have the body and strength of a full grown man and can become effectively the boss at home because their mums/sisters/aunts can no longer control them and, as you point out, there is simply no male presence in the household to explain to them that they can't use their physical power to get through life.
You make some very valid points about the transition of the traditional Carribean family culture into the UK where the replication of it is simply impossible. Of course, there are many fine young black men (and white men too, for that matter) who do just fine in a single parent family but there are many others who don't and who simply don't know anyone from their community who goes on to get a good job and have a career. What they DO see are that the bad lads on their estate seem to be doing just fine from their shake-downs and petty crime and decide that might be an altogether better option for them.
The entertainer Bill Cosby and Dr. Alvin F. Poussaint wrote a terrific book targeted at the black community in the US called "Come on People" and Cosby has been very outspoken in his criticism of black men in failing to take responsibilities for their families and at the black community as a whole to abandon the "victim" culture and raise themselves up.
The first part of his interview with Tim Russert on Meet the Press is here and, if you have a chance, you should try and watch it, he is plenty smart and does not miss his target: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZve73KQpQ
The much maligned Rev. Jeremiah Wright makes many similar points in his sermons at the infamous UTCOC in Chicago, these are also available online and well worth hearing if only to experience the fervour of a black church compared to their staid white equivalents.
As to the dole system, I think we can agree on the key point that the system can be "gamed" if people have kids and council accomodation but for an 18 year old at home with Ma and Pa then they are very limited with what they can claim. More to the point, many of the kids getting into serious trouble are under-16 and not eligible for any benefits because they are too young.
In actual fact, in London at least, it must be easier and more beneficial for the young, single knuckleheads to go out and get a dead-end boring job that pays them a couple of hundred per week than to go on the dole as at least they have some wedge to get hammered with. Christ, at 3 quid a pint they would only be able to afford 16 pints a week from their dole cheque....
I agree with Suzi. Speeding is a crime and if we want the Police to stop "wasting" resources on it then we can all slow down by a few miles a minute. Maybe we be a little late for that meeting/TV show but perhaps we'd have safer and calmer roads and safer and calmer pavements.
It would only be a small step but even a journey of a thousand miles must start with one of those.
The reason there is lack of OB on our streets is because when they nick someone the little black book is no longer enough in court you need reams and reams of paperwork that all basically says the same thing as the little black book that the OB used to use.
1 nicking 4 hrs off the beat on average if you listen to any OB that is will to tell you.
tied up with paperwork surely there is another way
weren't they introducing the PCSO's to help with that situation? cant they have paperwork police? office based staff that do the administration for a team of police? every secretary has 12 policeman?(or however necessary) and do the admin and process everything on their behalf?
TBF NLA Its the same wherever you go in the public arena.
My cousin has been an A&E Nurse and QMH Sidcup for about 15 years and she moans that when Labour came in they started getting more and more paperwork to fill out so the Trust brough in Admin staff to allow them to carry on with what theyre trainined to do.
Now 2 out of 5 staff in A&E are employed to fill in paperwork, diverting funds from treating patients. Same with the Police, Fire Brigade, Teachers......
We were talking about this at the weekend - there is a little solution - albeit money would need to be spent.....
Get a department within the station and have a pool of assistants ready for when the beat cops arrest someone and bring them in - they then hand their books to us and we type up the forms and other paperwork - then when they finish their shift they only have to review / amend the docs and not do them from scratch for every one they arrest. Each assistant could be allocated 4/5 beat cops per shift.......
This keeps the beat cops out on the streets.........
What this country needs more than anything is an event to lift the nation's spirits, creating collective joy and unity. A return to the 'feelgood factor'
I think the problem people have with speeding enforcement is three-fold:
1. In the past it was rarely if ever enforced, and if you got caught and you weren't driving dangerously the worst you cold expect was a "don't do it again".
2. The hiding of cameras and other types of speed traps gives the impression its law enforcement by underhand methods. Rightly or wrongly I think most people will accept a "fair cop", but feel that cameras hidden behind bushes aren't fair.
3. The roads have been changed to maximise penalties. In the past you could be pretty confident that on a normal side street the limit was 30, on wider roads 40, on dual carriageway in town it was 50, out of town 70, m-ways 70 and most country lanes 60. Now roads seems to have almost random speedlimits, that change at arbitary positions (often with no accompanying change in actual road conditions) all seemingly designed to catch the motorists out, often with speed traps or cameras close to these arbitary changes.
[cite]Posted By: randy andy[/cite]I think the problem people have with speeding enforcement is three-fold:
1. In the past it was rarely if ever enforced, and if you got caught and you weren't driving dangerously the worst you cold expect was a "don't do it again".
2. The hiding of cameras and other types of speed traps gives the impression its law enforcement by underhand methods. Rightly or wrongly I think most people will accept a "fair cop", but feel that cameras hidden behind bushes aren't fair.
3. The roads have been changed to maximise penalties. In the past you could be pretty confident that on a normal side street the limit was 30, on wider roads 40, on dual carriageway in town it was 50, out of town 70, m-ways 70 and most country lanes 60. Now roads seems to have almost random speedlimits, that change at arbitary positions (often with no accompanying change in actual road conditions) all seemingly designed to catch the motorists out, often with speed traps or cameras close to these arbitary changes.
or perhaps because there have been a number of incidents there that have seen the need for the speed reduction to be reduced over a certain stretch of road due to it being close to residents, pedestrians, crossings, or corners, junctions.
I dunno why people are so suspicious. if the camera was hiding and you were going over the limit. more fool you! don't speed then you won't get the hump with a camera behind a tree!
Suze - Its not the fact that if get caught, fined etc for speeding that I, and I assume others, are upset. As others have said on here if its a fair cop then most people will be OK with that, its the fact that people feel that all this is so underhanded and that the motorist is being used by so many Govt agencies to raise funds (road tax increases, congestion charges, fuel costs etc) and that with cameras being hidden this is just another blood sucking exercise by the Govt and Police to raise money and meet their offence quotas.
If it were the case that they were genuinely and solely in place to reduce speed and therefore reduce accidents the why didn't we adopt the average speed cameras that the French have used on their motorways for 15/20yrs which are much more effective at keeping drivers to maintain a low speed through a accident blackspot, past schools etc?
Or Suzi it has something to do wuth the fact that the AA did resaerch on the top 600 ! yes 600 accident black spots and the top 600 highest earning speed cameras and they didnt match.
The speed camera on Blackheath hill should be there and there has been at least two fatal accidents on the bend of that hill. The speed camera on the way down Gravel Hill is there why ?
Motoring crime is an easy target, its crime but small beer and the bottom points are (1) its easy for the OB . (2) its a stealth tax in many cases.
What a great and diverse group of people we have on here, all united by one common bond, our football team.
So many well thought out arguments, so many counter arguments equally well thought out and not hampered by having to follow a "party line". Right wingers prepared to take on board left wing ideas, and vice-versa. What a shame our two party system does not allow the politicians to do the same and come to a common agreement over what to do, although with many of them I don't think they would actually want that, they just want power and things done their way.
Why not put some of these ideas down on paper and write to your local MP? As Henry said, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Even if you don't think your MP will act on what you say, he/she will be obliged to answer you and take time to consider your letter.
But well done all on making something so tragic a really interesting and compulsive debate, and proving that at least a section of our society does care about the problems inthe community, and does care about the situation others find themselves in.
If i speed and get caught my fault i wont get the ache about it when i get prosecuted i have broken the law
however
If i get Burgled i expect the OB to come to my house preferably within the hr hopefully same day not the next.
I want prints done and i want the bstd caught
If i get my car vandalised i expect the same
if i or any of my family get hurt by a scum bag I expect the same
There is more OB on our streets but there is more people on our streets i want more and more OB until the comments are jeesus and there alot of OB about
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]
There is more OB on our streets but there is more people on our streets i want more and more OB until the comments are jeesus and there alot of OB about
That's an interesting comment - All the politicians go on about rising police numbers, but i wonder what the proportion of policemen are to members of the public.
Great comment by Algarve. As you all know, i make no secret of the fact i get uncomfortable about 'these type of threads' because sadly these events happen all to common and i don't want a football forum filled with negative aspects of society. There is always going to be something outrageous or sickening in the news or in the papers highlighting how society has gone downhill.
But this thread has proved insightful and thought-provoking, and that's down to the quality of the posts and the acceptance that others, like everything else in life, will have different views to you. The amount of different reasons listed on why there are problems, and the equal number suggestions of improvements, show just what a minefield it is.
There are two separate issues regarding speeding. One is cameras and where they are situated and the other is police involvement in apprehending those who speed.
This debate is about police and how they should deploy the "limited resources" they and Government (whether red or blue)always bang on about.
In my opinion there is not that much need for the police to involve themselves in speeding because of the preponderance of cameras effectively doing the job for them. The cameras should be releasing police to apprehend the murderers, rapists, muggers , burglars, vandals etc that blight the quality of life of far too many people.
Going back to first principles for a moment why is speeding wrong? It is wrong because there is increased dangers of accidents particularly for more vulnerable roadusers like pedestrians and cyclists (at least those who stop at red lights:-) ).
Given that premise why were FIVE police officers hiding in the Church carpark on a Saturday afternoon when there are no children at the adjacent school rather than deterring speeding motorists with a high profile presence between 8:30 am and 9:am or 3:30pm and 4:00pm Monday to Friday? I suggest the answer to that question is that the police see motorists as an easy nicking to boost their quotas and crime prevention / protection of the public ranks very low on the list of priorities.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]Or Suzi it has something to do wuth the fact that the AA did resaerch on the top 600 ! yes 600 accident black spots and the top 600 highest earning speed cameras and they didnt match.
.
Where there cameras at the accident black spots?
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]If i speed and get caught my fault i wont get the ache about it when i get prosecuted i have broken the law
however
If i get Burgled i expect the OB to come to my house preferably within the hr hopefully same day not the next.
I want prints done and i want the bstd caught
If i get my car vandalised i expect the same
if i or any of my family get hurt by a scum bag I expect the same
There is more OB on our streets but there is more people on our streets i want more and more OB until the comments are jeesus and there alot of OB about
I agree. If I break the law I expect to get punish and should accept that as the price of being part of a legally controlled society. If you don't want to hand over money to the Police for traffic offences then hit your brakes.
But I also expect the police to investigate all crimes. Zero tolerence of "minor" crimes such as vandelism helps prevent an atmosphere of decay and neglet and picks up offenders much earlier when there might still be a chance to turn them around.
Dan, I don't know why I would answer someone whose been banned on the BBS for winding up poor innocent palace fans but there seem to be more and more "average speed" cameras on motorways esp at road works.
Not only speeding motorists Len, but the Mums and Dads with seven children in their car leaping all over the back seat with no belts on, and the ones that park on the zig-zags placed there to protect THEIR children.
[cite]Posted By: Algarveaddick[/cite]Not only speeding motorists Len, but the Mums and Dads with seven children in their car leaping all over the back seat with no belts on, .
God, that does my head in. And parents in the front seat with a baby sitting on their lap!!!!!!!!. But don't you worry cos the baby will take the full force of the windscreen when you crash.
[cite]Posted By: Algarveaddick[/cite]Not only speeding motorists Len, but the Mums and Dads with seven children in their car leaping all over the back seat with no belts on, .
God, that does my head in. And parents in the front seat with a baby sitting on their lap!!!!!!!!. But don't you worry cos the baby will take the full force of the windscreen when you crash.
Absolutely mate, we are supposed to look out for other peoples children,but it's too much trouble for them to do it themselves.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]Or Suzi it has something to do wuth the fact that the AA did resaerch on the top 600 ! yes 600 accident black spots and the top 600 highest earning speed cameras and they didnt match.
The speed camera on Blackheath hill should be there and there has been at least two fatal accidents on the bend of that hill. The speed camera on the way down Gravel Hill is there why ?
Motoring crime is an easy target, its crime but small beer and the bottom points are (1) its easy for the OB . (2) its a stealth tax in many cases.
I drove down gravel hill myself last night and there were loads of cars tearing down until they got to the camera bit and then slammed on the brakes. this was at about half 11pm.
i don't think you're getting it. its about prevention surely in the first instance, there is no proof that if they hadn't been there, there would have been an accident, but surely that is a better stat than the second guesses that everyone here has about everything else.
so what if its a tax that the ob make money off. don't speed, don't give them the money and don't complain!
so Dan, are you saying that people speed to raise money for the govt? if you don't want your money to go to the govt through fines, then don't do the crime that leads to that!
Comments
Speeding or stabbing ? one is premeditated there other isnt.
As awful as it sounds, and not something I'd have said before I was a parent, but if I had the choice of living in a gated community I'd probably take it.
Say police are just walking the streets, randomly stopping people for knifes in well known areas etc.
1.) They get abuse for abusing their powers and stopping anyone and then a street goes to the papers moaning that a 10 year old has just been mowed down by a speeding motorist in their area. They shout from the rooftops "More police should be watching speeding cars to stop things like this thing happening"
2.) Police concentrate on speeding motorists and people think it is pointless while at the same time people get stabbed in broad daylight and people go mad once again "Why are the police looking at speeding when people are getting stabbed on our streets?"
What are they meant to do, should we employ more police? Should we pay more tax to get more police? Are the police their but too busy doing paperwork?
Honestly, i don't have any answers but its a thankless task and nobody is ever going to be happy, especially when a specific incident affects you/your area personally.
Its all about meeting quotas though isnt it? Driving offences..Easy to prove and provide little or no paperwork.
Its the same with the whole of the public sector.
I'm a serial speeder, on both normal roads and on motorways, as i'm sure most on here are. I've never once been stopped, and could count on one hand the amount of times i've passed hiding patrol cars on motorways, or hiding behind vans with hand cameras in the last ten years.
Yes speeders do get stopped, on the rare occassion its for something minor and the copper is being an arse, but its not a massive issue and i believe only takes up a small percentage of police man-hours.
This single parent thing is just another blind alley in my opinion. At best its just another element in the cause.
I'd imagine that national service would only provide the forces with more of the very people you say that they don't need.
I was trying to suggest a more positive possible solution to the problem. Perhaps investment in an infrastructure for the forces that could take on people that might just need a sense of direction or purpose could produce a decent human being that has seen something of the world.
The last thing society wants is a load of unwilling delinquents with no desire to be a part of it in a good way.
Some people deserve to go to prison and we will always have that. Some people may well be able to turn their lives around that is what I am saying - a combination of prison, police, parole services, legal systems and social services for each of these people might just be an absurdly large mix of bodies with different agendas and an overall expense that might be better dealt with within one service. Those that could potentially become bad - let's see if we can straighten them out, if not then they go to the real dumping ground that is prison.
Drink & drugs are a massive problem in that they can be seen as the ultimate "end" in terms of enjoyment. I can't think of the last social event I went to where alcohol wasn't involved. They are a quick way to get yourself into another state of feeling and quick fixes need further quick fixes and will never provide a longer term solution. I should add that I drink regularly and on quite a few nights out, too much. On those nights I might have a bit of a laugh, but with it I can go months without really knowing how a friend is doing or what is going on in their lives. If that is the case for me, perhaps it escalates to society in general - are we really that connected?
Anyway I am waffling now, I think I am saying that finger pointing and dismissive thinking is too easy. If we are part of society and society has a problem then we are part of the problem too.
I just think its bitter people that speed, get caught and think they've been massively unfairly treated, and therefore blame the police for catching them when they should be out doing something more serious. what they fail to understand is possibly around the corner is a person waiting to walk into the road in front of their car and be killed instantly. its a crime, no more or less a crime than any other and the police are helping prevent it. Speed cameras are there to deter speeders (yeah ok there is a cash element involved) but are they really duping anyone? they go off you're doing 45 in a 40 zone, you carry on going 45 for the rest of your journey, hardly a lesson learnt and potentially you coudl have hit someone before or after you went through the camera thing. they are there as a deterrent, to stop people driving so fast when they shouldn't.
its lazy like you say Danny to blame police stopping speeders for stopping people stabbing others, but at the same time, is it such a bad thing they're potentially stopping a crime? just because it might inconvenience you for getting somewhere 10 mins slower than you would if you'd have gone faster than you should or make a journey a hell of a lot more expensive as you were fined? its people that downgrade their own crimes that don't help the situation. 'I only broke the law a little bit' isn't ok. its wrong, and the sooner everyone admits it/agrees the better.
For the record, I did not presume that you grew up in a middle-class oasis and am aware that Colfes is certainly more egalitarian that Eltham College or Dulwich College but, all the same, despite having ethnic students it would be fair to say (as you did) that these would be from better off families (presumably Asian rather than Afro-Carribean) rather than black kids from sink estates that flood the nations comprehensives.
The thing with the black kids in London, and the same applies to the Pacific Islander kids that we have in the state school system here, is that these lads grow up at 13 or 14 and have the body and strength of a full grown man and can become effectively the boss at home because their mums/sisters/aunts can no longer control them and, as you point out, there is simply no male presence in the household to explain to them that they can't use their physical power to get through life.
You make some very valid points about the transition of the traditional Carribean family culture into the UK where the replication of it is simply impossible. Of course, there are many fine young black men (and white men too, for that matter) who do just fine in a single parent family but there are many others who don't and who simply don't know anyone from their community who goes on to get a good job and have a career. What they DO see are that the bad lads on their estate seem to be doing just fine from their shake-downs and petty crime and decide that might be an altogether better option for them.
The entertainer Bill Cosby and Dr. Alvin F. Poussaint wrote a terrific book targeted at the black community in the US called "Come on People" and Cosby has been very outspoken in his criticism of black men in failing to take responsibilities for their families and at the black community as a whole to abandon the "victim" culture and raise themselves up.
The first part of his interview with Tim Russert on Meet the Press is here and, if you have a chance, you should try and watch it, he is plenty smart and does not miss his target:
The much maligned Rev. Jeremiah Wright makes many similar points in his sermons at the infamous UTCOC in Chicago, these are also available online and well worth hearing if only to experience the fervour of a black church compared to their staid white equivalents.
As to the dole system, I think we can agree on the key point that the system can be "gamed" if people have kids and council accomodation but for an 18 year old at home with Ma and Pa then they are very limited with what they can claim. More to the point, many of the kids getting into serious trouble are under-16 and not eligible for any benefits because they are too young.
In actual fact, in London at least, it must be easier and more beneficial for the young, single knuckleheads to go out and get a dead-end boring job that pays them a couple of hundred per week than to go on the dole as at least they have some wedge to get hammered with. Christ, at 3 quid a pint they would only be able to afford 16 pints a week from their dole cheque....
It would only be a small step but even a journey of a thousand miles must start with one of those.
1 nicking 4 hrs off the beat on average if you listen to any OB that is will to tell you.
tied up with paperwork surely there is another way
My cousin has been an A&E Nurse and QMH Sidcup for about 15 years and she moans that when Labour came in they started getting more and more paperwork to fill out so the Trust brough in Admin staff to allow them to carry on with what theyre trainined to do.
Now 2 out of 5 staff in A&E are employed to fill in paperwork, diverting funds from treating patients. Same with the Police, Fire Brigade, Teachers......
Get a department within the station and have a pool of assistants ready for when the beat cops arrest someone and bring them in - they then hand their books to us and we type up the forms and other paperwork - then when they finish their shift they only have to review / amend the docs and not do them from scratch for every one they arrest. Each assistant could be allocated 4/5 beat cops per shift.......
This keeps the beat cops out on the streets.........
The Euro Championships are about to start....
COME ON ENGLAND !!!
:-)
1. In the past it was rarely if ever enforced, and if you got caught and you weren't driving dangerously the worst you cold expect was a "don't do it again".
2. The hiding of cameras and other types of speed traps gives the impression its law enforcement by underhand methods. Rightly or wrongly I think most people will accept a "fair cop", but feel that cameras hidden behind bushes aren't fair.
3. The roads have been changed to maximise penalties. In the past you could be pretty confident that on a normal side street the limit was 30, on wider roads 40, on dual carriageway in town it was 50, out of town 70, m-ways 70 and most country lanes 60. Now roads seems to have almost random speedlimits, that change at arbitary positions (often with no accompanying change in actual road conditions) all seemingly designed to catch the motorists out, often with speed traps or cameras close to these arbitary changes.
or perhaps because there have been a number of incidents there that have seen the need for the speed reduction to be reduced over a certain stretch of road due to it being close to residents, pedestrians, crossings, or corners, junctions.
I dunno why people are so suspicious. if the camera was hiding and you were going over the limit. more fool you! don't speed then you won't get the hump with a camera behind a tree!
If it were the case that they were genuinely and solely in place to reduce speed and therefore reduce accidents the why didn't we adopt the average speed cameras that the French have used on their motorways for 15/20yrs which are much more effective at keeping drivers to maintain a low speed through a accident blackspot, past schools etc?
The speed camera on Blackheath hill should be there and there has been at least two fatal accidents on the bend of that hill. The speed camera on the way down Gravel Hill is there why ?
Motoring crime is an easy target, its crime but small beer and the bottom points are (1) its easy for the OB . (2) its a stealth tax in many cases.
So many well thought out arguments, so many counter arguments equally well thought out and not hampered by having to follow a "party line". Right wingers prepared to take on board left wing ideas, and vice-versa. What a shame our two party system does not allow the politicians to do the same and come to a common agreement over what to do, although with many of them I don't think they would actually want that, they just want power and things done their way.
Why not put some of these ideas down on paper and write to your local MP? As Henry said, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Even if you don't think your MP will act on what you say, he/she will be obliged to answer you and take time to consider your letter.
But well done all on making something so tragic a really interesting and compulsive debate, and proving that at least a section of our society does care about the problems inthe community, and does care about the situation others find themselves in.
however
If i get Burgled i expect the OB to come to my house preferably within the hr hopefully same day not the next.
I want prints done and i want the bstd caught
If i get my car vandalised i expect the same
if i or any of my family get hurt by a scum bag I expect the same
There is more OB on our streets but there is more people on our streets i want more and more OB until the comments are jeesus and there alot of OB about
That's an interesting comment - All the politicians go on about rising police numbers, but i wonder what the proportion of policemen are to members of the public.
Great comment by Algarve. As you all know, i make no secret of the fact i get uncomfortable about 'these type of threads' because sadly these events happen all to common and i don't want a football forum filled with negative aspects of society. There is always going to be something outrageous or sickening in the news or in the papers highlighting how society has gone downhill.
But this thread has proved insightful and thought-provoking, and that's down to the quality of the posts and the acceptance that others, like everything else in life, will have different views to you. The amount of different reasons listed on why there are problems, and the equal number suggestions of improvements, show just what a minefield it is.
This debate is about police and how they should deploy the "limited resources" they and Government (whether red or blue)always bang on about.
In my opinion there is not that much need for the police to involve themselves in speeding because of the preponderance of cameras effectively doing the job for them. The cameras should be releasing police to apprehend the murderers, rapists, muggers , burglars, vandals etc that blight the quality of life of far too many people.
Going back to first principles for a moment why is speeding wrong? It is wrong because there is increased dangers of accidents particularly for more vulnerable roadusers like pedestrians and cyclists (at least those who stop at red lights:-) ).
Given that premise why were FIVE police officers hiding in the Church carpark on a Saturday afternoon when there are no children at the adjacent school rather than deterring speeding motorists with a high profile presence between 8:30 am and 9:am or 3:30pm and 4:00pm Monday to Friday? I suggest the answer to that question is that the police see motorists as an easy nicking to boost their quotas and crime prevention / protection of the public ranks very low on the list of priorities.
Where there cameras at the accident black spots?
I agree. If I break the law I expect to get punish and should accept that as the price of being part of a legally controlled society. If you don't want to hand over money to the Police for traffic offences then hit your brakes.
But I also expect the police to investigate all crimes. Zero tolerence of "minor" crimes such as vandelism helps prevent an atmosphere of decay and neglet and picks up offenders much earlier when there might still be a chance to turn them around.
Dan, I don't know why I would answer someone whose been banned on the BBS for winding up poor innocent palace fans but there seem to be more and more "average speed" cameras on motorways esp at road works.
God, that does my head in. And parents in the front seat with a baby sitting on their lap!!!!!!!!. But don't you worry cos the baby will take the full force of the windscreen when you crash.
Absolutely mate, we are supposed to look out for other peoples children,but it's too much trouble for them to do it themselves.
I drove down gravel hill myself last night and there were loads of cars tearing down until they got to the camera bit and then slammed on the brakes. this was at about half 11pm.
i don't think you're getting it. its about prevention surely in the first instance, there is no proof that if they hadn't been there, there would have been an accident, but surely that is a better stat than the second guesses that everyone here has about everything else.
so what if its a tax that the ob make money off. don't speed, don't give them the money and don't complain!
so Dan, are you saying that people speed to raise money for the govt? if you don't want your money to go to the govt through fines, then don't do the crime that leads to that!