personally I think we need to show a little bit of respect and give benefit of the doubt when referring to the Board, I think its possible to point out their mistakes and still do this.
My understanding was that we said no to Billy Davies?
Hence he came out in the papers saying that we didn't respond to him or tell him officially "No" and that he only found out he hadn't got the job when Dowie was appointed?
From what I remember from a fans meeting with Richard Murray. Billy Davies was offered the job, but didn't return a call to say whether he accepted or not. Davies had even been to the Valley, and for example was deciding whether to change the dug outs round so he could give jip to the linesman. Murray thought Davies had bottled it, with the pressure of going after Curbs
Without the directors putting their own money into the club, we would not have survived Selhurst, not have lived the premiership dream and not have a club to argue about right now.
Like has been said, they are just as disappointed as any of us that things didn't go to plan - but they only ever did what they thought was best for Charlton.
[cite]Posted By: bigstemarra[/cite]Without the directors putting their own money into the club, we would not have survived Selhurst, not have lived the premiership dream and not have a club to argue about right now.
Like has been said, they are just as disappointed as any of us that things didn't go to plan - but they only ever did what they thought was best for Charlton.
Looks like Pards is about to tinker with the team again, "....which I feel will show more offensively than they did at Ipswich." From today's interview on the OS:
"Charlton will attempt to secure their first victory in five games this weekend when Barnsley are the visitors to The Valley (3pm), and Pardew, who rang the changes against Ipswich, admits he may tinker with his starting XI again for the game with the Tykes.
He stated: "We changed our shape in the last period at Ipswich and it worked for us. But it is a problem at the minute that our offensive players just aren't threatening the goal.
"I'm hoping we get the first goal on Saturday, I think that will help us. In the past when we've got the first goal we've been restricted so we're trying to get into a mode where we get the first goal, then go on and get a second and then a third.
"I'll have to pick a side on Saturday which I feel will show more offensively than they did at Ipswich. Defensively I have no complaints. We were a bit erratic on occasions, but we put our lives on the line in the box, defended well and the goalkeeper was brilliant. So we'll take those positives into Saturday."
[cite]Posted By: bigstemarra[/cite]Without the directors putting their own money into the club, we would not have survived Selhurst, not have lived the premiership dream and not have a club to argue about right now.
Like has been said, they are just as disappointed as any of us that things didn't go to plan - but they only ever did what they thought was best for Charlton.
I for one am glad they are still around.
I agree, sadly a few of the multimillionaires on here seem to think they've done a really bad job but the complainers haven't yet got their wallets out to buy the club.....:o)
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]From what I remember from a fans meeting with Richard Murray. Billy Davies was offered the job, but didn't return a call to say whether he accepted or not. Davies had even been to the Valley, and for example was deciding whether to change the dug outs round so he could give jip to the linesman. Murray thought Davies had bottled it, with the pressure of going after Curbs
The problem is that none of us know the truth and even RM was speculating. Whatever happened, he didn't take the job.
I do not rush to criticise a manager. It is a tough job - expectations were too high. Mr. Chappell’s assertion re a focused & balanced squad able to challenge for honours was wrong. Such a challenge needs a settled squad & experience. Teamwork/ player development is no overnight job. Over 3yrs we used 72 players.
At the time we had: 5 players with regular CL experience, Weaver, Hudson, Holland, Gray, Varney - 3 with some experience, Fortune, Sam, Bouazza were not regulars - 4 with one season’s experience - Basey, Youga, Yassin, Semedo - 3 who performed regularly below the CL, Bailey, Racon, Wright - 7 with no league experience, Dickson, Elliott, Fleetwood, Jensen, Shelvey, Solly, Yussuf.
The return of Ambrose, McLeod, Todorov, Zheng Zhi and arrival of Primus & Cranie add to the mix but Primus, Todorov & McLeod had barely played for 18 months, ZZ is a paradox while Arter, Christensen, Randolph, Sinclair, Thomas, Wagstaff are primarily work in progress. Uchechi is not eligible.
It is an inexperienced squad and a recipe for inconsistency. There is talent but Mr. Pardew cannot be said to be getting people to perform. I struggle to see signs he has an ability to do so. His “shuffle the pack” style is not working while his inappropriate comments become more annoying. A journeyman player who relied on a consistent team ethic his approach is unsettling, strangely almost divisive.
I know the finance issue early this season increased the challenge but WE all knew he was going to have fewer resources. In all of his prior positions he will have had to use every resource to the full which is why I have never understood his comments, approach to the squad, incoming transfers and general management.
There was one priority - get back to the PL. All activity, playing style, recruitment & management style needed that focus. Recruiting Weaver, MacCarthy, Varney, Iwelumo - all solid professionals made sense. Todorov, Mc Leod were acceptable gambles which injuries prevented from contributing.
However did AP see Yassin, Semedo, Racon, Sinclair, Christensen making an immediate impact? If so, why bring in Mills or Halford? Why never start Semedo at centre back? Why hardly give Racon & Sinclair a kick? This looks like misuse of the wrong end of 2mn fees & salaries. Is Fleetwood the same? Why Fleetwood if Dickson cannot get a game? Do these deals contribute to CL performances?
With possible takeover cash AP again spoke of loan players yet the influx of loan players last year was so badly managed it disrupted a still developing squad – “the grass is not always greener”.
With a squad limited in experience & ability, a belief system is crucial. AP's endless tinkering undermines belief. It does not work. There has to be consistency. I note a recent return to basics but Is it not basic to work out the best team of players? Devise a playing style to suit such player’s strengths & weaknesses? Build a squad to complement the style?
There are extenuating circumstances and we do not see or know the players day to day but I simply ask where is the progress? How many players/ positions can be said to have improved? We seem no nearer a game plan than at the start of last season.
[cite]Posted By: Grapevine49[/cite]
AP's endless tinkering undermines belief. It does not work.
Whilst any team on a bad run needs to make changes, you do have to question Pardews logic. Youga has been awful for weeks. So he rightly gets dropped. Then after 45 minutes at left midfield and 45 minutes at left back, Basey is dropped and Youga brought back in. Why? Basey didn't do badly and as with most players a run of 4-5 games in the side would give him some confidence and he'd progress from there. But no, Youga is brought back for the very next game so what does that tell Basey? His confidence must be shot to pieces now.
Same with Dickson. I know this has been covered elsewhere but it winds me up. Scores regularly for the reserves, itching to get a game, and an unfit McLeod gets a start ahead of him. Then the next game McLeod is out of the squad, and Dickson back on the bench.
Josh Wright - decent debut, not outstanding but did nothing wrong, got stuck in and grew as the game went on. His reward? Not even on the bench for the next game. What message does that give him?
Facts are Facts.....
League Games Played this year 35
League Games Won this year 10
Away League Games Played this year 17
Away League Games Won this year 3
Away League Goals scored this year 11
Decent Team Performances this year 6 (Coventry 4-1, Palace 2-0, Stoke 1-0, Blackpool 4-1, Swansea 2-0, Reading 4-2) Could add Plymouth away to this possibly call it 7
These are all at Championship Level not Premiership, with half a team full of Premier League experience. Not One yes not ONE decent away performance this season, in fact pretty much most performances have been bordering on abysmal. Are all our players really that bad, I was beginning to think so, but I do not accept that a team that has players like Hudson, Bailey, ZZ,Varney, Todorov, Weaver is not up to it.
The answer is clear no need to spell it out it's obvious.
The way AP is disrupting the squad with the endless changes just isn't on. To me there's 2 arguments here.
1: The players aren't responding to the managers way of thought.
2: The manager feels he still hasn't found his 'best 11'.
Ketmans comment above about some of the players we have shows the potential and proven ability we should be seeing. Why can't these class players play to the best of their ability? To me it stems from them not being given the confidence by those in charge, added to fact we have had an awful start to the season which sees us down the bottom of the table. It's been a vicious cycle which we need to get out of.
We need to consolidate what we have in to the best 11 we can field week in, week out, with injuries permitting. The constant changing of our 1st 11 is ruining our attempt to get back up the table.
I don't believe that our squad cannot play better than they have been. So, it begs the questions, is the person in charge of the team doing everything he can in order for us to survive? And if not, can he bring anything else to the squad to make the improve
My answer to both is simply 'No'.
I haven't lost complete faith in AP, but unless he can quickly turn this football club into the one we know can do so so much better, then there can be only one decision to be made by the board.
It's not just about AP either. The whole coaching staff have to chip in with player development, motivation, direction, mind set etc. I just get the feeling the current set up is not balanced right, as the players are not responding.
If AP were to go, I would appoint Jorge Costa if he were willing to come. I see him in a similar light as Roy Keane. A no nonsense natural leader who fights for everything and if that mentality was instilled in the players, which he did do for the Braga team in 2006-07, then we'd stand a better chance of building something again.
but surely thats the idea, you debate topics and possibly feel pleased when people come round to your way of thinking? instead of smarting at the 'i told you so' opinion?
you could quite easily be proved wrong by christmas if the team are up the top of the table, having strung a winning run together.
[cite]Posted By: miserableold-ish git[/cite]Blimey Suzi, you've hit the xmas "Spirits" abit early haven't you ?
I just don't give up hope as easily as some people. its october and we've got 33ish games left to sort ourselves out. thats 33 games to get down in the dumps before/after or 33 games to get behind the team and enjoy the ride!
The season is still young, and I know it's a trite thing to say about this league, but you're never really out of a play off place till March.
My only wish is that AP was actually a bit more confident in his decision, rather then this oddly insecure way he does things at the moment where he got no courage in his team selections.
If he can stick to a team, then who knows, it's just whether he can stick to a team
Excellent and thoughtful post Grapevine49. Aslo the one from P_Air. I have posted on here before that Pards positivity is a strength but also can be a weakness.
There is a very thin line between creating a belief system for players based around stretching them to the edge of their comfort zone, or stretching them beyond it. My best mate is a West Ham fan and in Pardew's day he constantly moaned about Pardews tactics and the playing of players "out of position". Marlon Harewood was an example cited who was played wide right when clearly he felt he should be played as central striker. In the end Pardew managed to get West Ham promoted (at the second attempt and only just) so maybe one can argue that his methods bore fruit.
I think there are two fundamental problems which he's failed yet to address. One is general lack of confidence. The other is tactical strenghth
1. Lack of Confidence.
I don't think this is all his fault. I think he inherited a squad where confidence was on the floor. He raised it for a while but the enormity of relegation was too much for the players and there fragility shone through. In the first season down, he set about trying to do something about that. Unfortunately the players he brought in, even Weaver on occasions, struggled when they got into the team, either due to difficult pre-seasons or weight of expectations. If you add to that the level of confidence of the remainder of the existing squad, people like Ambrose, Thomas and Fortune for example, I think we under-estimate the mental scarring that occurred when we were relegated. I still think it's their amongst those players. I think he got desperate last season which is why he felt he needed some loanees who might be more secure mentally.
This season he has brought in two confident players in Hudson and Bailey. It is no co-incidence that they have been our best performers by far. Confidence remains a real problem. We can play brilliantly for spells, like the first 25 mins against Brizzel, then completely collapse once they got ahead.
Not all of this is Pardews fault but he does have to find the key to improvement sooner rather than later.
2. Tactical Strength
What I mean is players being clear on what tactics are required and how they may need to be adapted game by game, or during games. I think point 1 makes this very difficult especially all the chopping and changing. It's almost like a chicken and egg situation.
What I'd like to see now is him accepting that he can't work miracles and stick with a game plan and a couple of alternative tactics and give the players he choses a chance to make it work. As fans we need to give the team a little bit of space in which this can happen. We are unbeaten in two. Lets hope we make it three, then four etc etc.
Comments
Hence he came out in the papers saying that we didn't respond to him or tell him officially "No" and that he only found out he hadn't got the job when Dowie was appointed?
Like has been said, they are just as disappointed as any of us that things didn't go to plan - but they only ever did what they thought was best for Charlton.
I for one am glad they are still around.
Hear, Hear.
"Charlton will attempt to secure their first victory in five games this weekend when Barnsley are the visitors to The Valley (3pm), and Pardew, who rang the changes against Ipswich, admits he may tinker with his starting XI again for the game with the Tykes.
He stated: "We changed our shape in the last period at Ipswich and it worked for us. But it is a problem at the minute that our offensive players just aren't threatening the goal.
"I'm hoping we get the first goal on Saturday, I think that will help us. In the past when we've got the first goal we've been restricted so we're trying to get into a mode where we get the first goal, then go on and get a second and then a third.
"I'll have to pick a side on Saturday which I feel will show more offensively than they did at Ipswich. Defensively I have no complaints. We were a bit erratic on occasions, but we put our lives on the line in the box, defended well and the goalkeeper was brilliant. So we'll take those positives into Saturday."
I agree, sadly a few of the multimillionaires on here seem to think they've done a really bad job but the complainers haven't yet got their wallets out to buy the club.....:o)
The problem is that none of us know the truth and even RM was speculating. Whatever happened, he didn't take the job.
At the time we had: 5 players with regular CL experience, Weaver, Hudson, Holland, Gray, Varney - 3 with some experience, Fortune, Sam, Bouazza were not regulars - 4 with one season’s experience - Basey, Youga, Yassin, Semedo - 3 who performed regularly below the CL, Bailey, Racon, Wright - 7 with no league experience, Dickson, Elliott, Fleetwood, Jensen, Shelvey, Solly, Yussuf.
The return of Ambrose, McLeod, Todorov, Zheng Zhi and arrival of Primus & Cranie add to the mix but Primus, Todorov & McLeod had barely played for 18 months, ZZ is a paradox while Arter, Christensen, Randolph, Sinclair, Thomas, Wagstaff are primarily work in progress. Uchechi is not eligible.
It is an inexperienced squad and a recipe for inconsistency. There is talent but Mr. Pardew cannot be said to be getting people to perform. I struggle to see signs he has an ability to do so. His “shuffle the pack” style is not working while his inappropriate comments become more annoying. A journeyman player who relied on a consistent team ethic his approach is unsettling, strangely almost divisive.
I know the finance issue early this season increased the challenge but WE all knew he was going to have fewer resources. In all of his prior positions he will have had to use every resource to the full which is why I have never understood his comments, approach to the squad, incoming transfers and general management.
There was one priority - get back to the PL. All activity, playing style, recruitment & management style needed that focus. Recruiting Weaver, MacCarthy, Varney, Iwelumo - all solid professionals made sense. Todorov, Mc Leod were acceptable gambles which injuries prevented from contributing.
However did AP see Yassin, Semedo, Racon, Sinclair, Christensen making an immediate impact? If so, why bring in Mills or Halford? Why never start Semedo at centre back? Why hardly give Racon & Sinclair a kick? This looks like misuse of the wrong end of 2mn fees & salaries. Is Fleetwood the same? Why Fleetwood if Dickson cannot get a game? Do these deals contribute to CL performances?
With possible takeover cash AP again spoke of loan players yet the influx of loan players last year was so badly managed it disrupted a still developing squad – “the grass is not always greener”.
With a squad limited in experience & ability, a belief system is crucial. AP's endless tinkering undermines belief. It does not work. There has to be consistency. I note a recent return to basics but Is it not basic to work out the best team of players? Devise a playing style to suit such player’s strengths & weaknesses? Build a squad to complement the style?
There are extenuating circumstances and we do not see or know the players day to day but I simply ask where is the progress? How many players/ positions can be said to have improved? We seem no nearer a game plan than at the start of last season.
It is very disappointing - must do better!
Grapevine 49
Whilst any team on a bad run needs to make changes, you do have to question Pardews logic. Youga has been awful for weeks. So he rightly gets dropped. Then after 45 minutes at left midfield and 45 minutes at left back, Basey is dropped and Youga brought back in. Why? Basey didn't do badly and as with most players a run of 4-5 games in the side would give him some confidence and he'd progress from there. But no, Youga is brought back for the very next game so what does that tell Basey? His confidence must be shot to pieces now.
Same with Dickson. I know this has been covered elsewhere but it winds me up. Scores regularly for the reserves, itching to get a game, and an unfit McLeod gets a start ahead of him. Then the next game McLeod is out of the squad, and Dickson back on the bench.
Josh Wright - decent debut, not outstanding but did nothing wrong, got stuck in and grew as the game went on. His reward? Not even on the bench for the next game. What message does that give him?
League Games Played this year 35
League Games Won this year 10
Away League Games Played this year 17
Away League Games Won this year 3
Away League Goals scored this year 11
Decent Team Performances this year 6 (Coventry 4-1, Palace 2-0, Stoke 1-0, Blackpool 4-1, Swansea 2-0, Reading 4-2) Could add Plymouth away to this possibly call it 7
These are all at Championship Level not Premiership, with half a team full of Premier League experience. Not One yes not ONE decent away performance this season, in fact pretty much most performances have been bordering on abysmal. Are all our players really that bad, I was beginning to think so, but I do not accept that a team that has players like Hudson, Bailey, ZZ,Varney, Todorov, Weaver is not up to it.
The answer is clear no need to spell it out it's obvious.
Here's hoping for Three points Saturday. :-)
Whats the starting 11 - does Pardew know ?
And if he walked/got sacked who'd come in ? Better the Devil you know ?
1: The players aren't responding to the managers way of thought.
2: The manager feels he still hasn't found his 'best 11'.
Ketmans comment above about some of the players we have shows the potential and proven ability we should be seeing. Why can't these class players play to the best of their ability? To me it stems from them not being given the confidence by those in charge, added to fact we have had an awful start to the season which sees us down the bottom of the table. It's been a vicious cycle which we need to get out of.
We need to consolidate what we have in to the best 11 we can field week in, week out, with injuries permitting. The constant changing of our 1st 11 is ruining our attempt to get back up the table.
I don't believe that our squad cannot play better than they have been. So, it begs the questions, is the person in charge of the team doing everything he can in order for us to survive? And if not, can he bring anything else to the squad to make the improve
My answer to both is simply 'No'.
I haven't lost complete faith in AP, but unless he can quickly turn this football club into the one we know can do so so much better, then there can be only one decision to be made by the board.
If AP were to go, I would appoint Jorge Costa if he were willing to come. I see him in a similar light as Roy Keane. A no nonsense natural leader who fights for everything and if that mentality was instilled in the players, which he did do for the Braga team in 2006-07, then we'd stand a better chance of building something again.
Funny how some of us were saying this all months and months back but were poo poo'd
Ah well
you could quite easily be proved wrong by christmas if the team are up the top of the table, having strung a winning run together.
Let's give the team 90+ minutes of support on Saturday - even if we go behind - and see if this management/player combo has anything about them.
We need 3 points against Barnsley - get them Pardew.
I just don't give up hope as easily as some people. its october and we've got 33ish games left to sort ourselves out. thats 33 games to get down in the dumps before/after or 33 games to get behind the team and enjoy the ride!
My only wish is that AP was actually a bit more confident in his decision, rather then this oddly insecure way he does things at the moment where he got no courage in his team selections.
If he can stick to a team, then who knows, it's just whether he can stick to a team
There is a very thin line between creating a belief system for players based around stretching them to the edge of their comfort zone, or stretching them beyond it. My best mate is a West Ham fan and in Pardew's day he constantly moaned about Pardews tactics and the playing of players "out of position". Marlon Harewood was an example cited who was played wide right when clearly he felt he should be played as central striker. In the end Pardew managed to get West Ham promoted (at the second attempt and only just) so maybe one can argue that his methods bore fruit.
I think there are two fundamental problems which he's failed yet to address. One is general lack of confidence. The other is tactical strenghth
1. Lack of Confidence.
I don't think this is all his fault. I think he inherited a squad where confidence was on the floor. He raised it for a while but the enormity of relegation was too much for the players and there fragility shone through. In the first season down, he set about trying to do something about that. Unfortunately the players he brought in, even Weaver on occasions, struggled when they got into the team, either due to difficult pre-seasons or weight of expectations. If you add to that the level of confidence of the remainder of the existing squad, people like Ambrose, Thomas and Fortune for example, I think we under-estimate the mental scarring that occurred when we were relegated. I still think it's their amongst those players. I think he got desperate last season which is why he felt he needed some loanees who might be more secure mentally.
This season he has brought in two confident players in Hudson and Bailey. It is no co-incidence that they have been our best performers by far. Confidence remains a real problem. We can play brilliantly for spells, like the first 25 mins against Brizzel, then completely collapse once they got ahead.
Not all of this is Pardews fault but he does have to find the key to improvement sooner rather than later.
2. Tactical Strength
What I mean is players being clear on what tactics are required and how they may need to be adapted game by game, or during games. I think point 1 makes this very difficult especially all the chopping and changing. It's almost like a chicken and egg situation.
What I'd like to see now is him accepting that he can't work miracles and stick with a game plan and a couple of alternative tactics and give the players he choses a chance to make it work. As fans we need to give the team a little bit of space in which this can happen. We are unbeaten in two. Lets hope we make it three, then four etc etc.
:)
perhaps i need to work on my arguments/powers of persuasion.. sometimes you just feel it in your gut tho and its not easy to quantify.
sounds like trapped wind