[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]To be fair they had to put up with a lot of stuff on the day...
If I knew you, I would remind you of that next season if we play Millwall and they play up at the Valley etc, and a copper randomly shoves you or someone you know for no apparent reason.
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]To be fair they had to put up with a lot of stuff on the day...
If I knew you, I would remind you of that next season if we play Millwall and they play up at the Valley etc, and a copper randomly shoves you or someone you know for no apparent reason.
One Bellend officer is not consistant with the whole police force - This is a very different scenario to the Jean Charles De Menezez There was full intent to kill then where as this was not intent.
The fool has pushed I.Tomlinson wrongfully and deserves punishing but the family dont seem to blame the officer completely so why should we?
[cite]Posted By: numbnuts[/cite]The Police are like a bunch of schoolboys at times, making up lies (and backing each other up with more lies) to try to get out of trouble. Pathetic, really.
Really? I'll maybe one day agree but not at the moment in fact no time soon!
One Cnut does not a police force make!
I am completeley confused by people who believe the whole police force is corrupt and "out to get them" That is not the case I can assure you.
I am currently going through the stages of becoming a volunteer police officer or Special Constable so i can help people. I get all of the authority of a standard officer and none of the pay - I'lll basically be more authorative than a PCSO but for 8 hrs every 2 weeks.
Does that sound like im out to get you. Didn't think so.
In principle what you say is of course correct.
However it is human nature to form opinions based on personal experience.
If as a law abiding citizen one has had bad experiences with the limited police contact one has encountered then it is inevitable that one will have a negative opinion of the police in general.
It has to be said that under this Labour Government the UK has become as close to a police state as possible. The current levels of state intervention in your daily lives would make the Stasi cream themselves.
Fine you might say if you have nothing to hide, a lot of people (me included) are happy with their lot & don't have any burning issues that they wish to devote their time, thoughts & energy to following.
However some people do have political issues they feel strongly about & it seems anything that deviates from the narrow ideology held by our ruling parties is capable of being brutally supressed given the incredible powers the police & home office have at their disposal. Of course they use the Bush-doctrine of using these powers to prevnt terrorism - rule by fear.
I find it uncomfortable even at football matches to be blatantly filmed by some police officer as i lawfully enter, sit or leave a stadium. What right do these people have to do that?
What right do a governemt have to hold records of my e-mails, communications, movements around the country?
It's funny because here in probably the most conservative/right-wing province in North America - there has been an almighty fuss over the city of Calgary erecting their first couple of CCTV cameras downtown in a well known trouble spot. These people have no idea what it is like to live in a society where it seems you are constantly & unavoidably monitored.
However it is human nature to form opinions based on personal experience.
If as a law abiding citizen one has had bad experiences with the limited police contact one has encountered then it is inevitable that one will have a negative opinion of the police in general.
A fair argument in which all I can do is agree - Obviously it makes me wonder why the officer in question even became a Police Constable he does not deserve to be.
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]To be fair they had to put up with a lot of stuff on the day...
If I knew you, I would remind you of that next season if we play Millwall and they play up at the Valley etc, and a copper randomly shoves you or someone you know for no apparent reason.
One Bellend officer is not consistant with the whole police force
I have not said it is, I have plenty of experience with the police, good & bad, but you cant excuse his behaviour towards an individual just because others have wound him up all day. If you use that anology, I would have the right to thump the nearest person every time me & the missus have a bust up.
I have not said it is, I have plenty of experience with the police, good & bad, but you cant excuse his behaviour towards an individual just because others have wound him up all day. If you use that anology, I would have the right to thump the nearest person every time me & the missus have a bust up.
LOL not what I was saying!!!
I fully believe the "copper" should be done for ABH but unless there is proof that the stress of the situation caused the heart attack nothing (unfortunately) further would be possible.
Video of an officer appearing to strike a passer-by minutes before he collapsed and died at the G20 protests "raise obvious concerns", the head of the Met Police has said.
Sir Paul Stephenson has called for a full investigation into police conduct surrounding the incident outside the Bank of England last Wednesday.
Ian Tomlinson is seen walking with his back to a group of police with his hands in his pockets when a helmeted officer lunges at him from behind.
In the footage, obtained by the Guardian, the 47-year-old falls heavily to the floor. He remonstrates with the officers before being helped to his feet by members of the public.
Shortly afterwards Mr Tomlinson, a newspaper seller, collapsed on a nearby street and died of a heart attack.
After watching the video, Mr Tomlinson's son, Paul King, 26, said the family "wanted answers".
Mr King said his father left work selling the Evening Standard at Monument Station at about 7pm.
He was trying to make his way home but police at a number of barricades were not allowing people through.
Mr Tomlinson was treated by police after collapsing
He said the video showed police had contact with his father. But he told the Guardian: "Whether that was a cause to his death we are not to know."
He added: "We want answers: why? Ian clearly had his arms in his pockets and back towards the police. There is no need for them to step in towards him.
"(The video) clearly shows that Ian did have an altercation. Now we can say, yes he did. Up until now it has been 'if'. But now we've seen it, we want answers."
The Guardian said it had received the footage from a fund manager from New York who had filmed the protests while in London on business.
He told the paper he wanted the footage to be made public because "it was clear the family were not getting any answers".
One of the protesters present, a law student called Peter, has told Sky News how he tried to help Mr Tomlinson when he collapsed in a side street.
"I looked up and saw a man in his late-40s stumbling along, he looked unable to walk properly," he said.
"He collided with a door, walked a few more steps and collapsed."
Along with a female friend they went to help. The woman, a third-year medical student, said: "It was almost as if he was clowning around.
"He smelt of alcohol and seemed happy, not distressed, but as we were talking he just stopped responding." She immediately started giving him first aid.
Mr Tomlinson was then rushed to hospital where he was pronounced dead.
I have not said it is, I have plenty of experience with the police, good & bad, but you cant excuse his behaviour towards an individual just because others have wound him up all day. If you use that anology, I would have the right to thump the nearest person every time me & the missus have a bust up.
LOL not what I was saying!!!
I fully believe the "copper" should be done for ABH but unless there is proof that the stress of the situation caused the heart attack nothing (unfortunately) further would be possible.
The last passage was more in response to Mclovin's post about the copper having to put up with people all day. :-)
[cite]Posted By: Dazzler21[/cite]
LOL not what I was saying!!!
I fully believe the "copper" should be done for ABH but unless there is proof that the stress of the situation caused the heart attack nothing (unfortunately) further would be possible.
The last passage was more in response to Mclovin's post about the copper having to put up with people all day. :-)
Lol confusing ;o)
But on a serious note.
A fairly young gentleman was assaulted and sadly has now passed away which may or may not have been related to the assault (there is no way to tell). The officer therefore should be arrested for ABH as stated above.
As someone that knows the area very well, that little passage is on either side of main roads and with a main junction just 100yds away.
Given what was going on in the 7 hours in the immediate area leading up to it, it is purely my belief that no one would have found thesmselves at that point for any other reason for a. wanting to get caught up in the aggro, or b. not wanting to get involved, but with a voyouristic approach wanting to get 'close to the action' and have a look at what is going on.
Yes, he has his back to the police, hands in pockets and is walking away. However, to be at that exact spot, at that time, and as it appears on the video, have complete no knowledge that there is a row of riot police 5 yards away trying to move people back, that just doesn't ring true to me. I can't believe that a grown man, let alone a millwall bloke who has seen it all through the years and would be pretty streetwise, would be that naive.
So in summary, i don't think he did anything wrong other than he want to have a scan of a bit bother, and in the process be a little bit obtrusive to the police. The fact he could die from such an incident is both saddening and sickening, and i hope his family get full justice. But i don't believe he was just simply 'on his way home from work', though that is a irrelevent now.
It's a real tragedy but it needs to be put into perspective. He was apparently on his way home and was stuck in the corden. He was understandably aggrieved at not being allowed to go the way he wanted and had been making hisn feelings known. He was clearly dawdling as the police were trying to move the crowd back here. Nothing condones him being pushed over and the copper responsible has to answer for that and for the associated consequences of him having a heart-attack and dying. However, this is what police officers have to do in policing large scale demonstrations. Being football fans, I am surprised by some of the startled comments on here. Ian Tomlinson was a heavy drinker, a long time beggar and rough sleeper (despite having a family) and I suspect we will find out that his poor state of health contributed to his death far more than the shove he received here. Doesn't make it right or excuse it, but to compare it to Blair Peach is an insult to a man who was beaten to death but truncheon wielding coppers.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]As someone that knows the area very well, that little passage is on either side of main roads and with a main junction just 100yds away.
Given what was going on in the 7 hours in the immediate area leading up to it, it is purely my belief that no one would have found thesmselves at that point for any other reason for a. wanting to get caught up in the aggro, or b. not wanting to get involved, but with a voyouristic approach wanting to get 'close to the action' and have a look at what is going on.
Yes, he has his back to the police, hands in pockets and is walking away. However, to be at that exact spot, at that time, and as it appears on the video, have complete no knowledge that there is a row of riot police 5 yards away trying to move people back, that just doesn't ring true to me. I can't believe that a grown man, let alone a millwall bloke who has seen it all through the years and would be pretty streetwise, would be that naive.
So in summary, i don't think he did anything wrong other than he want to have a scan of a bit bother, and in the process be a little bit obtrusive to the police. The fact he could die from such an incident is both saddening and sickening, and i hope his family get full justice. But i don't believe he was just simply 'on his way home from work', though that is a irrelevent now.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Not seen any footage but is this not what some wanted?
There were many calls on here for the Police for "give them a good kicking" and hopes that"they get their heads kicked in" etc etc
RIP Ian
As I understand it Ian Tomlinson was a not a protester at all.
RIP
I'm aware of that. Would it have been OK if he was?
No but from the tone of your post I surmised that you thought he was a protester, a misconception the family have strived to correct.
I don't think it matters either way if the police (and that is an if) acted incorrectly. The attitude among some was that such summary justice was appropriate but such actions have consequences and in this case they were tragic.
I don't think it matters either way if the police (and that is an if) acted incorrectly. The attitude among some was that such summary justice was appropriate but such actions have consequences and in this case they were tragic.
..............
Indeed I recall quite a few demands for "violence to be met with violence"...
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Not seen any footage but is this not what some wanted?
There were many calls on here for the Police for "give them a good kicking" and hopes that"they get their heads kicked in" etc etc
RIP Ian
As I understand it Ian Tomlinson was a not a protester at all.
RIP
I'm aware of that. Would it have been OK if he was?
No but from the tone of your post I surmised that you thought he was a protester, a misconception the family have strived to correct.
I don't think it matters either way if the police (and that is an if) acted incorrectly. The attitude among some was that such summary justice was appropriate but such actions have consequences and in this case they were tragic.
I don't agree with the attitude you mention but I do agree that this incident was a tragedy.
1 Any bruises (caused by any beatings) will show up on any post mortem and recorded. 2 We only see a few seconds footage of film, so do not know what happened before hand. 3 Why was he going so slowly when the Police were trying to make him move in (as above, so what happened leading up to the incident)? 4 We don't know what his relationship was with the Police, so maybe he was making his own protest by moving slowly to pee the Police off! 5 Maybe the reason he was moving so slowly was because his reasoning was impaired by illness or drink. Again this will show up on the post mortem.
1 Any bruises (caused by any beatings) will show up on any post mortem and recorded.
2 We only see a few seconds footage of film, so do not know what happened before hand.
3 Why was he going so slowly when the Police were trying to make him move in (as above, so what happened leading up to the incident)?
4 We don't know what his relationship was with the Police, so maybe he was making his own protest by moving slowly to pee the Police off!
5 Maybe the reason he was moving so slowly was because his reasoning was impaired by illness or drink. Again this will show up on the post mortem.
It seems he was on his way home from work and took the wrong route. Even if he had ben drinking (not an offence as long as you are behaving yourself) so what?
This seems to be a bit similar to the summary execution of Jean Charles de Menezes, he was half challenged by police who thought he was a suicide bomber and got himself shot. After that the police moved into cover-up mode and the same disturbing trait is evident here. I recall at the time the police said he was a protestor and implied that he was involved in violent protests. Not being the brigtest bulbs in the firmament they didn't realise that maybe some of the protestors might be recording the action. Still like de Menezes and the guy shot while carrying a chair leg in a plastic bag expect this to be swept under the carpet.
Strikes me that Tomlinsons slow amble may well have been due to the imminent onset of a heart attack. Police action towards someone who was obviously not presenting any threat was heavy handed to say the least. That said. I feel confident in saying that the level of response that British Police Officers show in public order duties are amongst the most restrained anywhere in the world. Still requires an investigation though.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Not seen any footage but is this not what some wanted?
There were many calls on here for the Police for "give them a good kicking" and hopes that"they get their heads kicked in" etc etc
RIP Ian[/quote]
That's a pretty disgusting allegation to imply that some people on here wanted to see someone die. A tragedy regardless of who it was whether a protestor or not.
As one of the posters i take it you are referring to perhaps, take a minute to step down from your ivory tower of smugness and read back through the thread and you will see that (when the comments weren't tongue in cheek) they were stating that those being violent and intimadating against any one innocent should expect to met with the same treatment.
Absolutely nothing was implied about wishing death on anyone regardless of whether they were involved or not and it is wrong to allude to that. An absolute tradegy and not one that should be used for petty point scoring on an internet forum.
As one of the posters i take it you are referring to perhaps, take a minute to step down from your ivory tower of smugness and read back through the thread and you will see that (when the comments weren't tongue in cheek) they were stating that those being violent and intimadating against any one innocent should expect to met with the same treatment.
.............
Why the defensiveness - struck a nerve have we? As you well know there were quite a few calls for the police to get violent so as to teach the "soap dodgers" a lesson. Sometimes in life you have to be careful what you wish for..
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Strikes me that Tomlinsons slow amble may well have been due to the imminent onset of a heart attack. Police action towards someone who was obviously not presenting any threat was heavy handed to say the least. That said. I feel confident in saying that the level of response that British Police Officers show in public order duties are amongst the most restrained anywhere in the world. Still requires an investigation though.
If he had a dodgy heart in the first place, which is likely given he subsequently had a heart attack, that is probably the reason why he was moving slowly.
Agreed BFR but only probably ! Don`t forget he could have been ambling with an attitude problem ? Truth is we don`t know and doubt we ever will and nor would the police officers have known. I still think the response was over the top.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]As one of the posters i take it you are referring to perhaps, take a minute to step down from your ivory tower of smugness and read back through the thread and you will see that (when the comments weren't tongue in cheek) they were stating that those being violent and intimadating against any one innocent should expect to met with the same treatment.
.............
Why the defensiveness - struck a nerve have we? As you well know there were quite a few calls for the police to get violent so as to teach the "soap dodgers" a lesson. Sometimes in life you have to be careful what you wish for..
The defensiveness is because it was implied that people like myself who were stating that those who were intending on being violent should be met which similar measures were wishing for someone to die which is totally incorrect and it has struck a nerve thanks as it is tragic and certainy not wished for regardless of whether it was a steel- bar-wielding anarchist or a guy going about his business as in this case.
Apologies for defending myself against that allegation BFR.
The defensiveness is because it was implied that people like myself who were stating that those who were intending on being violent should be met which similar measures were wishing for someone to die which is totally incorrect and it has struck a nerve thanks as it is tragic and certainy not wished for regardless of whether it was a steel- bar-wielding anarchist or a guy going about his business as in this case.
..........
Nope, as you well know there were plenty of calls here for violence to be met with violence...and when violence is met with violence you have to be prepared for the law of unintended consequences, whatever you got your wish, now stop re-writing history.
Comments
If I knew you, I would remind you of that next season if we play Millwall and they play up at the Valley etc, and a copper randomly shoves you or someone you know for no apparent reason.
One Bellend officer is not consistant with the whole police force - This is a very different scenario to the Jean Charles De Menezez There was full intent to kill then where as this was not intent.
The fool has pushed I.Tomlinson wrongfully and deserves punishing but the family dont seem to blame the officer completely so why should we?
Ian Tomlinson Rest In Peace.
In principle what you say is of course correct.
However it is human nature to form opinions based on personal experience.
If as a law abiding citizen one has had bad experiences with the limited police contact one has encountered then it is inevitable that one will have a negative opinion of the police in general.
Fine you might say if you have nothing to hide, a lot of people (me included) are happy with their lot & don't have any burning issues that they wish to devote their time, thoughts & energy to following.
However some people do have political issues they feel strongly about & it seems anything that deviates from the narrow ideology held by our ruling parties is capable of being brutally supressed given the incredible powers the police & home office have at their disposal. Of course they use the Bush-doctrine of using these powers to prevnt terrorism - rule by fear.
I find it uncomfortable even at football matches to be blatantly filmed by some police officer as i lawfully enter, sit or leave a stadium. What right do these people have to do that?
What right do a governemt have to hold records of my e-mails, communications, movements around the country?
It's funny because here in probably the most conservative/right-wing province in North America - there has been an almighty fuss over the city of Calgary erecting their first couple of CCTV cameras downtown in a well known trouble spot. These people have no idea what it is like to live in a society where it seems you are constantly & unavoidably monitored.
A fair argument in which all I can do is agree - Obviously it makes me wonder why the officer in question even became a Police Constable he does not deserve to be.
I have not said it is, I have plenty of experience with the police, good & bad, but you cant excuse his behaviour towards an individual just because others have wound him up all day. If you use that anology, I would have the right to thump the nearest person every time me & the missus have a bust up.
LOL not what I was saying!!!
I fully believe the "copper" should be done for ABH but unless there is proof that the stress of the situation caused the heart attack nothing (unfortunately) further would be possible.
Sir Paul Stephenson has called for a full investigation into police conduct surrounding the incident outside the Bank of England last Wednesday.
Ian Tomlinson is seen walking with his back to a group of police with his hands in his pockets when a helmeted officer lunges at him from behind.
In the footage, obtained by the Guardian, the 47-year-old falls heavily to the floor. He remonstrates with the officers before being helped to his feet by members of the public.
Shortly afterwards Mr Tomlinson, a newspaper seller, collapsed on a nearby street and died of a heart attack.
After watching the video, Mr Tomlinson's son, Paul King, 26, said the family "wanted answers".
Mr King said his father left work selling the Evening Standard at Monument Station at about 7pm.
He was trying to make his way home but police at a number of barricades were not allowing people through.
Mr Tomlinson was treated by police after collapsing
He said the video showed police had contact with his father. But he told the Guardian: "Whether that was a cause to his death we are not to know."
He added: "We want answers: why? Ian clearly had his arms in his pockets and back towards the police. There is no need for them to step in towards him.
"(The video) clearly shows that Ian did have an altercation. Now we can say, yes he did. Up until now it has been 'if'. But now we've seen it, we want answers."
The Guardian said it had received the footage from a fund manager from New York who had filmed the protests while in London on business.
He told the paper he wanted the footage to be made public because "it was clear the family were not getting any answers".
One of the protesters present, a law student called Peter, has told Sky News how he tried to help Mr Tomlinson when he collapsed in a side street.
"I looked up and saw a man in his late-40s stumbling along, he looked unable to walk properly," he said.
"He collided with a door, walked a few more steps and collapsed."
Along with a female friend they went to help. The woman, a third-year medical student, said: "It was almost as if he was clowning around.
"He smelt of alcohol and seemed happy, not distressed, but as we were talking he just stopped responding." She immediately started giving him first aid.
Mr Tomlinson was then rushed to hospital where he was pronounced dead.
The last passage was more in response to Mclovin's post about the copper having to put up with people all day. :-)
There were many calls on here for the Police for "give them a good kicking" and hopes that"they get their heads kicked in" etc etc
RIP Ian
As I understand it Ian Tomlinson was a not a protester at all.
RIP
I'm aware of that. Would it have been OK if he was?
Lol confusing ;o)
But on a serious note.
A fairly young gentleman was assaulted and sadly has now passed away which may or may not have been related to the assault (there is no way to tell). The officer therefore should be arrested for ABH as stated above.
Given what was going on in the 7 hours in the immediate area leading up to it, it is purely my belief that no one would have found thesmselves at that point for any other reason for a. wanting to get caught up in the aggro, or b. not wanting to get involved, but with a voyouristic approach wanting to get 'close to the action' and have a look at what is going on.
Yes, he has his back to the police, hands in pockets and is walking away. However, to be at that exact spot, at that time, and as it appears on the video, have complete no knowledge that there is a row of riot police 5 yards away trying to move people back, that just doesn't ring true to me. I can't believe that a grown man, let alone a millwall bloke who has seen it all through the years and would be pretty streetwise, would be that naive.
So in summary, i don't think he did anything wrong other than he want to have a scan of a bit bother, and in the process be a little bit obtrusive to the police. The fact he could die from such an incident is both saddening and sickening, and i hope his family get full justice. But i don't believe he was just simply 'on his way home from work', though that is a irrelevent now.
No but from the tone of your post I surmised that you thought he was a protester, a misconception the family have strived to correct.
I hate your wise words of wisdom AFKA ;o)
I don't think it matters either way if the police (and that is an if) acted incorrectly. The attitude among some was that such summary justice was appropriate but such actions have consequences and in this case they were tragic.
..............
Indeed I recall quite a few demands for "violence to be met with violence"...
I don't agree with the attitude you mention but I do agree that this incident was a tragedy.
1 Any bruises (caused by any beatings) will show up on any post mortem and recorded.
2 We only see a few seconds footage of film, so do not know what happened before hand.
3 Why was he going so slowly when the Police were trying to make him move in (as above, so what happened leading up to the incident)?
4 We don't know what his relationship was with the Police, so maybe he was making his own protest by moving slowly to pee the Police off!
5 Maybe the reason he was moving so slowly was because his reasoning was impaired by illness or drink. Again this will show up on the post mortem.
It seems he was on his way home from work and took the wrong route. Even if he had ben drinking (not an offence as long as you are behaving yourself) so what?
This seems to be a bit similar to the summary execution of Jean Charles de Menezes, he was half challenged by police who thought he was a suicide bomber and got himself shot. After that the police moved into cover-up mode and the same disturbing trait is evident here. I recall at the time the police said he was a protestor and implied that he was involved in violent protests. Not being the brigtest bulbs in the firmament they didn't realise that maybe some of the protestors might be recording the action. Still like de Menezes and the guy shot while carrying a chair leg in a plastic bag expect this to be swept under the carpet.
There were many calls on here for the Police for "give them a good kicking" and hopes that"they get their heads kicked in" etc etc
RIP Ian[/quote]
That's a pretty disgusting allegation to imply that some people on here wanted to see someone die. A tragedy regardless of who it was whether a protestor or not.
As one of the posters i take it you are referring to perhaps, take a minute to step down from your ivory tower of smugness and read back through the thread and you will see that (when the comments weren't tongue in cheek) they were stating that those being violent and intimadating against any one innocent should expect to met with the same treatment.
Absolutely nothing was implied about wishing death on anyone regardless of whether they were involved or not and it is wrong to allude to that. An absolute tradegy and not one that should be used for petty point scoring on an internet forum.
.............
Why the defensiveness - struck a nerve have we? As you well know there were quite a few calls for the police to get violent so as to teach the "soap dodgers" a lesson. Sometimes in life you have to be careful what you wish for..
If he had a dodgy heart in the first place, which is likely given he subsequently had a heart attack, that is probably the reason why he was moving slowly.
Channel 4 news have more video from a different angle
The defensiveness is because it was implied that people like myself who were stating that those who were intending on being violent should be met which similar measures were wishing for someone to die which is totally incorrect and it has struck a nerve thanks as it is tragic and certainy not wished for regardless of whether it was a steel- bar-wielding anarchist or a guy going about his business as in this case.
Apologies for defending myself against that allegation BFR.
..........
Nope, as you well know there were plenty of calls here for violence to be met with violence...and when violence is met with violence you have to be prepared for the law of unintended consequences, whatever you got your wish, now stop re-writing history.