One big difference...swap the rioters for football fans and the police would've been in there cracking skulls straight away and nipped it in the bud from the start.
But perhaps you've all forgotten that it was the police shooting an innocent man that started it all!!
One big difference...swap the rioters for football fans and the police would've been in there cracking skulls straight away and nipped it in the bud from the start.
But perhaps you've all forgotten that it was the police shooting an innocent man that started it all!!
I would suggest that feeling "overwhelmed" is a completely unacceptable response from the police in the face of civil disorder. I think that first night of the riots showed the police to be fairly incompetent from the top down.
And I would suggest that it was nothing that we had ever seen the like of before. Not on this scale and not covering the areas that it did.
There's good police and bad police and you can probably say that about most professions/ groups of people. Priests, doctors, bankers, muslims, blacks, whites everyone. It's usually down to the individual as to whether they are wrong uns or not.
Good mate of mine is one and he's a top bloke, normal and not a bully or a coward. Was in the army and served in the first Gulf war etc. He spent one night of the riots last summer dealing close up with the man who got shot in the head and killed in Croydon whilst being attacked by scum kicking off because they've make themselves unemployable and fancied a new x box that week.
Others like my (thankfully) ex (brief) girlfriend from years back are scum and echo the negative stereotypes as did a couple of the wrong uns I had the misfortune of meeting.
There are utter wrong uns in the police force but there are also some genuinely good people in it too who work a job which appears to be increasingly demotivating, restrictive and frustrating for not amazing money.
This particular court case aside it also seems trendy and right on or geezerish to profess a hatred for rozzers. Fair enough view to have if you move in the type of circles whereby if you are wronged you sort out the problem yourself a' la Reggie and Ronnie but I'd wager that 99% of the population don't go all Chuck Norris when they get robbed/ raped/ assaulted etc and instead rely on the police to help them out inclduding I'd imagine many of those who spend time knocking them.
I would suggest that feeling "overwhelmed" is a completely unacceptable response from the police in the face of civil disorder. I think that first night of the riots showed the police to be fairly incompetent from the top down.
Got to be a big difference between feeling overwhelmed and being overwhelmed...one is emotional and one is physical - though i get the impression you are aware of that, just using the statement in the former suits your argument more.
Blimey, there's some utter crap posted on this particular thread isn't there?
I did start drafting a response to some of the sweeping generalisations that most police are bad, bent, inept, thugs line but what's the point as the posters clearly have little experience or understanding of modern day policing and neither do they wish to have it seems to me.
I would suggest that feeling "overwhelmed" is a completely unacceptable response from the police in the face of civil disorder. I think that first night of the riots showed the police to be fairly incompetent from the top down.
Got to be a big difference between feeling overwhelmed and being overwhelmed...one is emotional and one is physical - though i get the impression you are aware of that, just using the statement in the former suits your argument more.
The police could not cope with what was going on - that is clear from their non-response - therefore they were, as a force, emotionally overwhelmed. Lack of cohesion and leadership are both signs of being overwhelmed.
I'm not really sure how anyone can defend the mets initial response.
Even if Dugan was armed I'm not sure killing him is a proportionate response.
Perhaps we should draw up a list of situations where the police are allowed to kill members of the public.
I would suggest that feeling "overwhelmed" is a completely unacceptable response from the police in the face of civil disorder. I think that first night of the riots showed the police to be fairly incompetent from the top down.
This pretty sums up my opinion. Yes it was a tough job, but that's their job! Isn't their whole purpose to prevent people from breaking the law? They lost control of Tottenham the night before and teenagers realised immediately that they could get away with doing the same the following evening, which they did, what an embarrassment.
The riots were not in response to the man being shot, the first wave of violence in Tottenham was as a result of the way the family were treated after their son was shot dead
The rest of what happened last summer was scum looking for a reason to act like scum
FOD they lost control because they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers mate and probably hesitant about using the requisite force which would no doubt be held against them for being excessive had they steamed in to the scum smashing up shops etc and possibly because their management left them under prepared for such an occurrence.
The riots were not in response to the man being shot, the first wave of violence in Tottenham was as a result of the way the family were treated after their son was shot dead
The rest of what happened last summer was scum looking for a reason to act like scum
agreed. there was a protest by the family and friends because the police had not notified them that mark Duggan had been killed. and the police still did not come out to talk to the family even when they protested about it. the whole thing turned into a demonstration the police riot lot came in, heavy handed beat up several protesters and attacked and punched a 16 year old girl. they were being threatend by what had become an angry mob and probably had to be heavy handed. After that all the chancers started the looting round Tottenham. it turns into a riot.
If they could use water cannons and rubber bullets it would have made life easier. I love the ''If they were football supporters'' gag - I think most of them were.
FOD they lost control because they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers mate and probably hesitant about using the requisite force which would no doubt be held against them for being excessive had they steamed in to the scum smashing up shops etc and possibly because their management left them under prepared for such an occurrence.
I'll admit that I simplified quite a complex turn of events but by stating that their management left them under prepared for such an occurrence you are agreeing with me. I believe their do a great job at the Olympics due to be prepared, but people could see these riots coming months before it happened when their were disturbances during the NUS march when anarchists hijacked the protest.
If they could use water cannons and rubber bullets it would have made life easier. I love the ''If they were football supporters'' gag - I think most of them were.
Yeah, those rioters in Croydon go to Selhurst Park and the youths in Woolwich burning the pub down are Valley regulars aren't they. You really think all those rioters are regulars at Millwall, Charlton, Palace, Arsenal, Tottenham, West Ham etc?
The riots were not in response to the man being shot, the first wave of violence in Tottenham was as a result of the way the family were treated after their son was shot dead
The rest of what happened last summer was scum looking for a reason to act like scum
If Mark Duggan hadn't have been shot would the riots have occurred?
FOD they lost control because they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers mate and probably hesitant about using the requisite force which would no doubt be held against them for being excessive had they steamed in to the scum smashing up shops etc and possibly because their management left them under prepared for such an occurrence.
I'll admit that I simplified quite a complex turn of events but by stating that their management left them under prepared for such an occurrence you are agreeing with me. I believe their do a great job at the Olympics due to be prepared, but people could see these riots coming months before it happened when their were disturbances during the NUS march when anarchists hijacked the protest.
I do agree about the management being underprepared but then it's all about context.
They are better equipped to contain and deal with the anarchist soap dodgers that hi jack genuine protests because of their surveillance info and (oxymoron ;-) ) intelligence and those sort of demos tend to be focused geographically in fewer areas.
Last years hoodrat extravaganza was sporadic and seemed to escalate ridiculously from Orpington to Harrow. Whilst there is an argument that perhaps they should have the resources and organisational nous to deal with such events they are so few and far between it wouldnt be realistic to have the resources on call to cover such occurrences as they are so random.
Turned into a general chat about policing not individual officers which is what this was about.
Point is if individual people in positions of power abuse it or end up killing someone even if it is accidental then, due to the responsibility they take on as a public law enforcer, they should be punished to the full extent.
Things like this don't need to be swept under the carpet as it will only infuriate the affected sections of a society which already simmers without aggravation.
People with power should be regulated far closer than your average joe, and that goes for anyone; police, government, CEOs of large corporations etc. If you know you are being scrutinized then you're more likely to play by the rules
FOD they lost control because they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers mate and probably hesitant about using the requisite force which would no doubt be held against them for being excessive had they steamed in to the scum smashing up shops etc and possibly because their management left them under prepared for such an occurrence.
I'll admit that I simplified quite a complex turn of events but by stating that their management left them under prepared for such an occurrence you are agreeing with me. I believe their do a great job at the Olympics due to be prepared, but people could see these riots coming months before it happened when their were disturbances during the NUS march when anarchists hijacked the protest.
What? I never saw them coming, never in my years would I ever imagine that night. Anarchists at a march are a completely different to thing to what happened last August.
And people looting JD Sports in Charlton retail park had fuck all to do with a man innocent or not being shot in Tottenham.
Good, I really don’t believe that pushing the bloke justifies a manslaughter conviction. He was deliberately being a dick on what was already a challenging day for the police
Neither jury heard details of Harwood's prior disciplinary record, which can only be reported now. This includes how he quit the Met on health grounds in 2001 shortly before a planned disciplinary hearing into claims he illegally tried to arrest a driver following a road rage incident while off duty, altering his notes to retrospectively justify the actions. Harwood was nonetheless able to join another force, Surrey, before returning to serve with the Met in 2005.
He allegedly punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform in other alleged incidents.
Comments
But perhaps you've all forgotten that it was the police shooting an innocent man that started it all!!
Good mate of mine is one and he's a top bloke, normal and not a bully or a coward. Was in the army and served in the first Gulf war etc. He spent one night of the riots last summer dealing close up with the man who got shot in the head and killed in Croydon whilst being attacked by scum kicking off because they've make themselves unemployable and fancied a new x box that week.
Others like my (thankfully) ex (brief) girlfriend from years back are scum and echo the negative stereotypes as did a couple of the wrong uns I had the misfortune of meeting.
There are utter wrong uns in the police force but there are also some genuinely good people in it too who work a job which appears to be increasingly demotivating, restrictive and frustrating for not amazing money.
This particular court case aside it also seems trendy and right on or geezerish to profess a hatred for rozzers. Fair enough view to have if you move in the type of circles whereby if you are wronged you sort out the problem yourself a' la Reggie and Ronnie but I'd wager that 99% of the population don't go all Chuck Norris when they get robbed/ raped/ assaulted etc and instead rely on the police to help them out inclduding I'd imagine many of those who spend time knocking them.
I did start drafting a response to some of the sweeping generalisations that most police are bad, bent, inept, thugs line but what's the point as the posters clearly have little experience or understanding of modern day policing and neither do they wish to have it seems to me.
For that reason I'm out of this one...
Nor did he fire a shot and according to some witnesses he was pinned to the floor when shot.
I'm not really sure how anyone can defend the mets initial response.
Even if Dugan was armed I'm not sure killing him is a proportionate response.
Perhaps we should draw up a list of situations where the police are allowed to kill members of the public.
The rest of what happened last summer was scum looking for a reason to act like scum
there was a protest by the family and friends because the police had not notified them that mark Duggan had been killed. and the police still did not come out to talk to the family even when they protested about it. the whole thing turned into a demonstration the police riot lot came in, heavy handed beat up several protesters and attacked and punched a 16 year old girl. they were being threatend by what had become an angry mob and probably had to be heavy handed. After that all the chancers started the looting round Tottenham. it turns into a riot.
They are better equipped to contain and deal with the anarchist soap dodgers that hi jack genuine protests because of their surveillance info and (oxymoron ;-) ) intelligence and those sort of demos tend to be focused geographically in fewer areas.
Last years hoodrat extravaganza was sporadic and seemed to escalate ridiculously from Orpington to Harrow. Whilst there is an argument that perhaps they should have the resources and organisational nous to deal with such events they are so few and far between it wouldnt be realistic to have the resources on call to cover such occurrences as they are so random.
Point is if individual people in positions of power abuse it or end up killing someone even if it is accidental then, due to the responsibility they take on as a public law enforcer, they should be punished to the full extent.
Things like this don't need to be swept under the carpet as it will only infuriate the affected sections of a society which already simmers without aggravation.
People with power should be regulated far closer than your average joe, and that goes for anyone; police, government, CEOs of large corporations etc. If you know you are being scrutinized then you're more likely to play by the rules
And people looting JD Sports in Charlton retail park had fuck all to do with a man innocent or not being shot in Tottenham.
He allegedly punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform in other alleged incidents.