He had a gun wrapped in a sock in the car, which was still in the sock when it was recovered from the scene and didn't have his prints on it.
Nor did he fire a shot and according to some witnesses he was pinned to the floor when shot.
@Sparrows Lane Lion hand guns are carried in socks for 3 reasons: to conceal the weapon, to avoid fingerprints and to allow the weapon to be fired while concealed. I don't know as much about the case as you but just carrying a firearm (presumably illegal) puts you in jeopardy of being shot.
I am not OB but I know from military training that lethal force can be used in circumstances where you believe yourself or others to be in mortal danger. This can potentially lead to innocent people being killed. There are rules of engagement which are usually based on intelligence (as appears to have happened in the case Mr Duggan i.e. he was suspected of carrying a firearm). That said, anyone employed by the state who kills someone in the course of their duties knows that they may ultimately face court to account for their action.
Exercising restraint rather than using lethal force can lead to the death of the individuals concerned e.g. the two Royal Signals corporals in Northern Ireland and the six Royal Military Police in Iraq.
I am not suggesting one person's life is more important than another's but if you think the other guy is armed and might shoot at you, you might be more inclined to shoot them before they get a chance to have a pop at you.
If you or I had behaved in the same way we would have gone down for manslaughter - fail to see how it was reasonable force. Let's hope the civil action succeeds.....
Harwood was a bully and a thug given licence to violence by the Metropolitan Police. His record stinks and his actions should have resulted in a conviction and custodial sentence.
Harwood was a bully and a thug given licence to violence by the Metropolitan Police. His record stinks and his actions should have resulted in a conviction and custodial sentence.
Could not agree more.
Does anyone know if the Met are going to allow him to carry on with his wonderful career or are not even they that crass?
I agree with the verdict because there is no way we can be certain that what Simon Harwood did killed Ian Tomlinson
Pretty big coincidence then !
Agree with it being a massive coincidence but you cannot lock somebody up on a coincidence you never know Tomlinson may of died even if the incident never happened.
I agree with the verdict because there is no way we can be certain that what Simon Harwood did killed Ian Tomlinson
Pretty big coincidence then !
Agree with it being a massive coincidence but you cannot lock somebody up on a coincidence you never know Tomlinson may of died even if the incident never happened.
No you're right, you can't lock someone up on a coincidence. But this wasn't .
I agree with the verdict because there is no way we can be certain that what Simon Harwood did killed Ian Tomlinson
Pretty big coincidence then !
Agree with it being a massive coincidence but you cannot lock somebody up on a coincidence you never know Tomlinson may of died even if the incident never happened.
So he may have died from internal bleeding even if the incident had never happened? Seems unlikely.
I agree with the verdict because there is no way we can be certain that what Simon Harwood did killed Ian Tomlinson
Pretty big coincidence then !
Agree with it being a massive coincidence but you cannot lock somebody up on a coincidence you never know Tomlinson may of died even if the incident never happened.
So he may have died from internal bleeding even if the incident had never happened? Seems unlikely.
There is no proof that Harwood's push caused the internal bleeding !
Harwood...........smug bas****d, licenced to bully, serial offender, embarrassment to the Met......and still has his liberty.
What a farce, Harwood's form is presented after the trial.
Let's hope civil justice is successful.
Just a man going home from work, Ian Tomlinson may have had personal problems but didn't deserve this treatment prior to his passing, it could have been any of us.
I agree with the verdict because there is no way we can be certain that what Simon Harwood did killed Ian Tomlinson
Pretty big coincidence then !
Agree with it being a massive coincidence but you cannot lock somebody up on a coincidence you never know Tomlinson may of died even if the incident never happened.
So he may have died from internal bleeding even if the incident had never happened? Seems unlikely.
There is no proof that Harwood's push caused the internal bleeding !
I thought that was proven but whether it led to the heart attack couldn't be proven?
There is no proof that Harwood's push caused the internal bleeding !
Really? Glad you bothered to read any of the case details. There were three pathologists who reviewed the pathology report and found that Dr Patel's procedure was error strewn and that Tomlinson died of internal bleeding: with very little evidence for coronary artery disease being a factor in his death. Patel throwing away three litres of fluid in his stomach cavity, made it difficult to definitively prove that internal bleeding was a close to definite cause.
All forensic evidence is fallible. Three pathologists who state that Tomlinson's internal bleeing was consistent with the whack he received, whilst coronary disease was highly unlikely to be the cause, is for me beyond reasonable doubt. There is considerable proof if you bother to read the evidence, even that printed in shit newspapers. I'd say three pathologists some of whom undertook another autopsy, and came to a conclusion based on this that the injury sustained was consistent with the violent push, is as close to much 'proof' you'll get in any trial without a puncture injury. Absolute proof? You've been watching too many cretinous CSI programmes.
I empathise with police in these scenarios where crowds are jostling and chalenging both verbally and physically: I could certainly understand the black officer hitting out at a verbally agressive female protestor in a crowd of people, around this time. But that is wholly different to an oldish man ambling around, not invading or agressing into the police's space, or demonstrating and remonstrating. The man was trying to get home, and the police were not under threat from a person who turned around and started to amble off.
I agree with the verdict because there is no way we can be certain that what Simon Harwood did killed Ian Tomlinson
Pretty big coincidence then !
Agree with it being a massive coincidence but you cannot lock somebody up on a coincidence you never know Tomlinson may of died even if the incident never happened.
So he may have died from internal bleeding even if the incident had never happened? Seems unlikely.
There is no proof that Harwood's push caused the internal bleeding !
Mate I'm not sure if you've read the case details but from my understanding a jury has already decided that Harwoods baton strike (the fact that you keep saying "push" when pathologists have said the baton strike was probably the most fundamental event makes me think perhaps you don't know what you're talking about) led to Tomlinsons death, and that his death was unlawful.
I believe this trial was to determine if Harwood was guilty of the specific crime of manslaughter - that he is responsible for the death isn't really beyond reasonable doubt.
To reiterate my point the media never tell the full story. The police get bad press considering the fantastic job they do day in and day out.
Bad press? Ain't they in bed with the press? They get a fantastic press in my opinion and are rarely exposed.
In bed with the press? You don't see much news do you. It couldn't be proved he died as a result of the push.
Justice is Justice. Trust me the police in London are one of the best in the world compared to most countries.
A baton strike, not a push.
So now because the Met are better than some of the corrupt forces across the world it's ok to let off a policeman who batoned & pushed an innocent member of the public causing his death?
I'll say one thing, if Ian Tomlinson was black, the black community would be in uproar and rightly so, whereas we are all sticking up for a thug in uniform!
Can I put a different slant on things. We saw last night an Assistant Deputy Commissioner admitting that the Management of Police Forces had completely failed to deal with this rogue thug of a Police Officer, despite all of the evidence being available. Add to this the incompetent management of GT4S who have greedily grabbed the income available from the Olympic Games, but utterly failed to do their job properly. Then consider why Lord Coe etc did not have in place proper review of progress in this crucial area, throw in a Home Secretary who appears to be lying about exactly when she was aware of the problem, and you begin to see a mass of incompetent management. I was a young Police Officer in the Sixties watching University Graduates being fast tracked to senior posts with no idea of what policing involved. To a large extent our society is now dominated by greed and self serving, and there is evidence of this everywhere you look, starting with successive Governments.
Comments
I am not OB but I know from military training that lethal force can be used in circumstances where you believe yourself or others to be in mortal danger. This can potentially lead to innocent people being killed. There are rules of engagement which are usually based on intelligence (as appears to have happened in the case Mr Duggan i.e. he was suspected of carrying a firearm). That said, anyone employed by the state who kills someone in the course of their duties knows that they may ultimately face court to account for their action.
Exercising restraint rather than using lethal force can lead to the death of the individuals concerned e.g. the two Royal Signals corporals in Northern Ireland and the six Royal Military Police in Iraq.
I am not suggesting one person's life is more important than another's but if you think the other guy is armed and might shoot at you, you might be more inclined to shoot them before they get a chance to have a pop at you.
The courts found the Lawrence 5 innocent first of all, that didn't stop people calling them guilty did it?
Let's hope the civil action succeeds.....
People are found innocent/ guilty in the eyes of the law but doesn't always mean they are.
And then people wonder why ordinary people have no faith in the system.
Does anyone know if the Met are going to allow him to carry on with his wonderful career or are not even they that crass?
What a farce, Harwood's form is presented after the trial.
Let's hope civil justice is successful.
Just a man going home from work, Ian Tomlinson may have had personal problems but didn't deserve this treatment prior to his passing, it could have been any of us.
RIP Ian Tomlinson
All forensic evidence is fallible. Three pathologists who state that Tomlinson's internal bleeing was consistent with the whack he received, whilst coronary disease was highly unlikely to be the cause, is for me beyond reasonable doubt. There is considerable proof if you bother to read the evidence, even that printed in shit newspapers. I'd say three pathologists some of whom undertook another autopsy, and came to a conclusion based on this that the injury sustained was consistent with the violent push, is as close to much 'proof' you'll get in any trial without a puncture injury. Absolute proof? You've been watching too many cretinous CSI programmes.
I empathise with police in these scenarios where crowds are jostling and chalenging both verbally and physically: I could certainly understand the black officer hitting out at a verbally agressive female protestor in a crowd of people, around this time. But that is wholly different to an oldish man ambling around, not invading or agressing into the police's space, or demonstrating and remonstrating. The man was trying to get home, and the police were not under threat from a person who turned around and started to amble off.
Justice is Justice. Trust me the police in London are one of the best in the world compared to most countries.
I believe this trial was to determine if Harwood was guilty of the specific crime of manslaughter - that he is responsible for the death isn't really beyond reasonable doubt.
So now because the Met are better than some of the corrupt forces across the world it's ok to let off a policeman who batoned & pushed an innocent member of the public causing his death?
I'll say one thing, if Ian Tomlinson was black, the black community would be in uproar and rightly so, whereas we are all sticking up for a thug in uniform!
Add to this the incompetent management of GT4S who have greedily grabbed the income available from the Olympic Games, but utterly failed to do their job properly.
Then consider why Lord Coe etc did not have in place proper review of progress in this crucial area, throw in a Home Secretary who appears to be lying about exactly when she was aware of the problem, and you begin to see a mass of incompetent management.
I was a young Police Officer in the Sixties watching University Graduates being fast tracked to senior posts with no idea of what policing involved. To a large extent our society is now dominated by greed and self serving, and there is evidence of this everywhere you look, starting with successive Governments.