Using other countries police forces to excuse our own is ridiculous - Oh it's worse elsewhere so stop complaining - people are dying in their thousands in Syria, therefore we should accept a few being killed here? So you've travelled, well done, so have a lot of people, and they still don't think this should just be brushed over
I'm fairly certain maiscat doesnt live in this country so he probably departed with a rosy view of old England. Unfortunately those of us that live here know how flawed the country is, yet how great it is too
Live in Bromley, work in London. Was caught up in the riots in Peckham driving home last year and had a lot to thank the police for as I ended up in a really bad and scary place. So dont know wtf you mean. The arrogance on this forum when someone has a different opinion is astounding. So, will repeat. If you think the video shows a situation that is fine until the police become violent, then for some strange reason you are ignoring the fact someone is ignoring police instructions to do something. His refusal to obey the instruction is the cause of the developing volatility. YOU REALLY DONT SEE THAT?
I'm fairly certain maiscat doesnt live in this country so he probably departed with a rosy view of old England. Unfortunately those of us that live here know how flawed the country is, yet how great it is too
Live in Bromley, work in London. Was caught up in the riots in Peckham driving home last year and had a lot to thank the police for as I ended up in a really bad and scary place. So dont know wtf you mean. The arrogance on this forum when someone has a different opinion is astounding. So, will repeat. If you think the video shows a situation that is fine until the police become violent, then for some strange reason you are ignoring the fact someone is ignoring police instructions to do something. His refusal to obey the instruction is the cause of the developing volatility. YOU REALLY DONT SEE THAT?
Apologies.
I live in Peckham and if you're referring to the first night of the riots then the police where a complete joke.
But I really don't think a bloke walking home, hands in pockets aids " developing volatility" - and he certainly doesn't deserve to be killed for those actions. Clearly if you think a rogue copper behaving like that towards an innocent member of the public, and ultimately killing him, is acceptable then our views on what is acceptable are poles apart.
I'm fairly certain maiscat doesnt live in this country so he probably departed with a rosy view of old England. Unfortunately those of us that live here know how flawed the country is, yet how great it is too
so you got say a 19 year old nephew out with his mates on friday night they are arresting one of his mates they ask him to move on he dont on third time they push him over resulting in his death you going to say to your brother or sister"its his own fault should of done as his told"
I'm fairly certain maiscat doesnt live in this country so he probably departed with a rosy view of old England. Unfortunately those of us that live here know how flawed the country is, yet how great it is too
The arrogance on this forum when someone has a different opinion is astounding. So, will repeat. If you think the video shows a situation that is fine until the police become violent, then for some strange reason you are ignoring the fact someone is ignoring police instructions to do something. His refusal to obey the instruction is the cause of the developing volatility. YOU REALLY DONT SEE THAT?
So anyone that has a different view to your own is arrogant? That's a bit of an .... er .... arrogant view to have, isn't it?
Ive lost the will to live anymore in this thread. I guess the police service who put there lives on the line daily should cease no more and we should just let everyone fight it out.
I want a strong, motivated, highly trained, fully funded and service based police service. I want them to be able to do their job properly and make criminals think twice before commiting a crime because of the likelihood of being caught. What I DO NOT want is a para military force recruiting unsuitable, unstable, bully boys who see the WHOLE public as their enemy instead of just the criminal element. When I ( which thankfully is almost never) have any contact with a police officer I EXPECT that he is polite, courteous and helpful. Can anyone recognise that in their dealings with the policemen they have encountered ? I am not expecting that we return to the days of Sargent Dixon but I fear our current police service has more in common with the Brown Shirts than dear old George. I am a 56 year old law abiding citizen who should have nothing to fear from the police but that's not how I feel. Something is very wrong when men like Harwood can forge a career in the police without his fellow officers noticing that the man is undoubtedly unsuitable and therefore being weeded out. Given his previous record prior to the tragic Ian Tomlinson killing why on earth was this man still in uniform. It is because he was not recognised as being anything out of the ordinary which to me is very frightening.
Ive lost the will to live anymore in this thread. I guess the police service who put there lives on the line daily should cease no more and we should just let everyone fight it out.
I want a strong, motivated, highly trained, fully funded and service based police service. I want them to be able to do their job properly and make criminals think twice before commiting a crime because of the likelihood of being caught. What I DO NOT want is a para military force recruiting unsuitable, unstable, bully boys who see the WHOLE public as their enemy instead of just the criminal element. When I ( which thankfully is almost never) have any contact with a police officer I EXPECT that he is polite, courteous and helpful. Can anyone recognise that in their dealings with the policemen they have encountered ? I am not expecting that we return to the days of Sargent Dixon but I fear our current police service has more in common with the Brown Shirts than dear old George. I am a 56 year old law abiding citizen who should have nothing to fear from the police but that's not how I feel. Something is very wrong when men like Harwood can forge a career in the police without his fellow officers noticing that the man is undoubtedly unsuitable and therefore being weeded out. Given his previous record prior to the tragic Ian Tomlinson killing why on earth was this man still in uniform. It is because he was not recognised as being anything out of the ordinary which to me is very frightening.
Please use paragraphs. The service is a very good one and trust me compared to France, Spain, Germany are a very tolerant one. A unbelievable statement to compare the met to para military.
If you have any real idea about the structure of policing then you would know, the way the police "police" is done through how the MPA instruct them to. Which in turn is through the government.
Fault lies with the government for putting so much pressure on officers to do an impossible job at times.
There are officers out there going above and beyond every day and get no credit. Officer have died in the line of duty as we have seen recently. But yet people are quite happy to sit here and slag them off like there corrupt thugs.
If you lost a member of your family or had them injured in the line of duty then some of these comments would make you disgusted.
Please see in every walk of life employees make mistakes which damage a company/service reputation. Keep things in reality. They do one of the hardest jobs in this country.
Ive lost the will to live anymore in this thread. I guess the police service who put there lives on the line daily should cease no more and we should just let everyone fight it out.
I want a strong, motivated, highly trained, fully funded and service based police service. I want them to be able to do their job properly and make criminals think twice before commiting a crime because of the likelihood of being caught. What I DO NOT want is a para military force recruiting unsuitable, unstable, bully boys who see the WHOLE public as their enemy instead of just the criminal element. When I ( which thankfully is almost never) have any contact with a police officer I EXPECT that he is polite, courteous and helpful. Can anyone recognise that in their dealings with the policemen they have encountered ? I am not expecting that we return to the days of Sargent Dixon but I fear our current police service has more in common with the Brown Shirts than dear old George. I am a 56 year old law abiding citizen who should have nothing to fear from the police but that's not how I feel. Something is very wrong when men like Harwood can forge a career in the police without his fellow officers noticing that the man is undoubtedly unsuitable and therefore being weeded out. Given his previous record prior to the tragic Ian Tomlinson killing why on earth was this man still in uniform. It is because he was not recognised as being anything out of the ordinary which to me is very frightening.
Please use paragraphs. The service is a very good one and trust me compared to France, Spain, Germany are a very tolerant one. A unbelievable statement to compare the met to para military.
If you have any real idea about the structure of policing then you would know, the way the police "police" is done through how the MPA instruct them to. Which in turn is through the government.
Fault lies with the government for putting so much pressure on officers to do an impossible job at times.
There are officers out there going above and beyond every day and get no credit. Officer have died in the line of duty as we have seen recently. But yet people are quite happy to sit here and slag them off like there corrupt thugs.
If you lost a member of your family or had them injured in the line of duty then some of these comments would make you disgusted.
Please see in every walk of life employees make mistakes which damage a company/service reputation. Keep things in reality. They do one of the hardest jobs in this country.
Firstly sorry my writing style is not to your liking.
Yes I am fully aware that the Police Service is underfunded and often has its hands tied by the inadequacies of the government of all flavours
I do not find it acceptable that you say our police are better than those of our neighbours. I want our police to be the gold standard of policing which I believe it once was. Not an acceptance of "well we might be bad but we are not the worst" why should I not compare our current police service with a para military force when all the evidence suggests that they very possibly are. They look like para military and very often adopt the actions of a para military force. They say if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.
I am not so stupid not to understand that there are of course police officers that are exactly what I expect a policeman to be but is it too much to ask that that is what ALL police officers should be. If they don't come up to standard then get rid. The consequences of not are all to clear with recent events. An attitude of well every job has good and bad is not I'm afraid acceptable in policing where the stakes are too high.
How do you know I have not lost a member of my family in the line of duty ?
Being a policeman is probably the hardest and most thankless jobs you can do but there are many people out there more than capable of meeting the needs of being a good copper and many that are not. It seems to me that too many of the nots are now mainstream within the service.
Ive lost the will to live anymore in this thread. I guess the police service who put there lives on the line daily should cease no more and we should just let everyone fight it out.
I want a strong, motivated, highly trained, fully funded and service based police service. I want them to be able to do their job properly and make criminals think twice before commiting a crime because of the likelihood of being caught. What I DO NOT want is a para military force recruiting unsuitable, unstable, bully boys who see the WHOLE public as their enemy instead of just the criminal element. When I ( which thankfully is almost never) have any contact with a police officer I EXPECT that he is polite, courteous and helpful. Can anyone recognise that in their dealings with the policemen they have encountered ? I am not expecting that we return to the days of Sargent Dixon but I fear our current police service has more in common with the Brown Shirts than dear old George. I am a 56 year old law abiding citizen who should have nothing to fear from the police but that's not how I feel. Something is very wrong when men like Harwood can forge a career in the police without his fellow officers noticing that the man is undoubtedly unsuitable and therefore being weeded out. Given his previous record prior to the tragic Ian Tomlinson killing why on earth was this man still in uniform. It is because he was not recognised as being anything out of the ordinary which to me is very frightening.
Please use paragraphs. The service is a very good one and trust me compared to France, Spain, Germany are a very tolerant one. A unbelievable statement to compare the met to para military.
If you have any real idea about the structure of policing then you would know, the way the police "police" is done through how the MPA instruct them to. Which in turn is through the government.
Fault lies with the government for putting so much pressure on officers to do an impossible job at times.
There are officers out there going above and beyond every day and get no credit. Officer have died in the line of duty as we have seen recently. But yet people are quite happy to sit here and slag them off like there corrupt thugs.
If you lost a member of your family or had them injured in the line of duty then some of these comments would make you disgusted.
Please see in every walk of life employees make mistakes which damage a company/service reputation. Keep things in reality. They do one of the hardest jobs in this country.
Firstly sorry my writing style is not to your liking.
Yes I am fully aware that the Police Service is underfunded and often has its hands tied by the inadequacies of the government of all flavours
I do not find it acceptable that you say our police are better than those of our neighbours. I want our police to be the gold standard of policing which I believe it once was. Not an acceptance of "well we might be bad but we are not the worst" why should I not compare our current police service with a para military force when all the evidence suggests that they very possibly are. They look like para military and very often adopt the actions of a para military force. They say if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.
I am not so stupid not to understand that there are of course police officers that are exactly what I expect a policeman to be but is it too much to ask that that is what ALL police officers should be. If they don't come up to standard then get rid. The consequences of not are all to clear with recent events. An attitude of well every job has good and bad is not I'm afraid acceptable in policing where the stakes are too high.
How do you know I have not lost a member of my family in the line of duty ?
Being a policeman is probably the hardest and most thankless jobs you can do but there are many people out there more than capable of meeting the needs of being a good copper and many that are not. It seems to me that too many of the nots are now mainstream within the service.
I'm not accepting the service to be 2nd best I'm just making you see that not everything and everyone is perfect in this world.
You will never be able to have any type of company/service where everyone is to a "gold" standard. Sadly that's just life. And most officers go above and beyond what there supposed to do.
Officers at the moment are working a 6 day on and 1 off rota at the moment with no extra pay/overtime. In order to fill the gaps left in the governments poor organising on security. That's not in the papers though is it. Some officers are not seeing there family for weeks and weeks to help deliver a great service to members of the public. It's a shame some don't hear or see this in the papers.
I find it quite ridiculous you consider the service to be like a para military force, this service gives more rights to its criminals than 19 out of the 20 biggest services in the world.
I feel as if this debate is going no where as you have a clouded view on your perception of the police service and maybe thats down to a bad experience you have had.
Sometimes it's better to look beyond what the media write and instead look at the real fantastic work officers do to keep our London a safe place.
Wasn't particularly safe for poor Mr. Ian Tomlinson though was it. Never mind though if we had been in Italy it might have been worse. Try thinking before you write.
Wasn't particularly safe for poor Mr. Ian Tomlinson though was it. Never mind though if we had been in Italy it might have been worse. Try thinking before you write.
But he didn't die as a result of the push, proven in court. So maybe you should have a think even if you were in sunny Italy.
Wasn't particularly safe for poor Mr. Ian Tomlinson though was it. Never mind though if we had been in Italy it might have been worse. Try thinking before you write.
But he didn't die as a result of the push, proven in court. So maybe you should have a think even if you were in sunny Italy.
He died as a result of the baton strike, which was proven in court.
Wasn't particularly safe for poor Mr. Ian Tomlinson though was it. Never mind though if we had been in Italy it might have been worse. Try thinking before you write.
But he didn't die as a result of the push, proven in court. So maybe you should have a think even if you were in sunny Italy.
Well I guess that's where we will have to agree to disagree Cray. My understanding was that it was "unlawful killing"
Correct. There have been two trials, the first established that Tomlinson was killed by baton strike and that killing was unlawful. The second trial was to determine if Harwood was guilty of the specific crime of manslaughter.
Correct. There have been two trials, the first established that Tomlinson was killed by baton strike and that killing was unlawful. The second trial was to determine if Harwood was guilty of the specific crime of manslaughter.
Thanks SE9. Seems to be a huge contradiction to me.
Correct. There have been two trials, the first established that Tomlinson was killed by baton strike and that killing was unlawful. The second trial was to determine if Harwood was guilty of the specific crime of manslaughter.
This is completely INCORRECT. I suspect that you are confusing the inquest which is not a trial (there is no defendant) with the only trial which concluded with the verdict of not guilty. Secondly the inquest did not find that Mr Tomlinson died from the baton strike. The verdict was one of unlawful killing. The evidence was that Mr Tomlinson died from an internal bleed caused by the fall which resulted from the push by PC Harwood. The jury at the inquest therefore were satisfied that PC Harwood's actions were unlawful (hence their verdict) and that they caused Mr Tomlinson's death but the jury in the criminal trial were not satisfied. It is not unknown for inquest juries to return unlawful killing verdicts (where no-one is on trial) but for the CPS to decline to prosecute or for a criminal trial jury (as here) to find the defendant not guilty.
Comments
The arrogance on this forum when someone has a different opinion is astounding. So, will repeat. If you think the video shows a situation that is fine until the police become violent, then for some strange reason you are ignoring the fact someone is ignoring police instructions to do something. His refusal to obey the instruction is the cause of the developing volatility. YOU REALLY DONT SEE THAT?
I live in Peckham and if you're referring to the first night of the riots then the police where a complete joke.
But I really don't think a bloke walking home, hands in pockets aids " developing volatility" - and he certainly doesn't deserve to be killed for those actions. Clearly if you think a rogue copper behaving like that towards an innocent member of the public, and ultimately killing him, is acceptable then our views on what is acceptable are poles apart.
If you have any real idea about the structure of policing then you would know, the way the police "police" is done through how the MPA instruct them to. Which in turn is through the government.
Fault lies with the government for putting so much pressure on officers to do an impossible job at times.
There are officers out there going above and beyond every day and get no credit. Officer have died in the line of duty as we have seen recently. But yet people are quite happy to sit here and slag them off like there corrupt thugs.
If you lost a member of your family or had them injured in the line of duty then some of these comments would make you disgusted.
Please see in every walk of life employees make mistakes which damage a company/service reputation. Keep things in reality. They do one of the hardest jobs in this country.
Yes I am fully aware that the Police Service is underfunded and often has its hands tied by the inadequacies of the government of all flavours
I do not find it acceptable that you say our police are better than those of our neighbours. I want our police to be the gold standard of policing which I believe it once was. Not an acceptance of "well we might be bad but we are not the worst" why should I not compare our current police service with a para military force when all the evidence suggests that they very possibly are. They look like para military and very often adopt the actions of a para military force. They say if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.
I am not so stupid not to understand that there are of course police officers that are exactly what I expect a policeman to be but is it too much to ask that that is what ALL police officers should be. If they don't come up to standard then get rid. The consequences of not are all to clear with recent events. An attitude of well every job has good and bad is not I'm afraid acceptable in policing where the stakes are too high.
How do you know I have not lost a member of my family in the line of duty ?
Being a policeman is probably the hardest and most thankless jobs you can do but there are many people out there more than capable of meeting the needs of being a good copper and many that are not. It seems to me that too many of the nots are now mainstream within the service.
You will never be able to have any type of company/service where everyone is to a "gold" standard. Sadly that's just life. And most officers go above and beyond what there supposed to do.
Officers at the moment are working a 6 day on and 1 off rota at the moment with no extra pay/overtime. In order to fill the gaps left in the governments poor organising on security. That's not in the papers though is it. Some officers are not seeing there family for weeks and weeks to help deliver a great service to members of the public. It's a shame some don't hear or see this in the papers.
I find it quite ridiculous you consider the service to be like a para military force, this service gives more rights to its criminals than 19 out of the 20 biggest services in the world.
I feel as if this debate is going no where as you have a clouded view on your perception of the police service and maybe thats down to a bad experience you have had.
Sometimes it's better to look beyond what the media write and instead look at the real fantastic work officers do to keep our London a safe place.
Cray Addick.
He died as a result of the baton strike, which was proven in court.
Well I guess that's where we will have to agree to disagree Cray. My understanding was that it was "unlawful killing"
I think the family has a good chance in the civil case.