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Ian Tomlinson

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Comments

  • Give that man a promotion
  • As stated on on threads re other cases - found not guilty, an innocent man.
  • He will always have a man's death on his conscience, maybe that is sufficient punishment.
  • colthe3rd said:

    Neither jury heard details of Harwood's prior disciplinary record, which can only be reported now. This includes how he quit the Met on health grounds in 2001 shortly before a planned disciplinary hearing into claims he illegally tried to arrest a driver following a road rage incident while off duty, altering his notes to retrospectively justify the actions. Harwood was nonetheless able to join another force, Surrey, before returning to serve with the Met in 2005.

    He allegedly punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform in other alleged incidents.

    because it had nothing to do with this case

  • Found not guilty.

    To reiterate my point the media never tell the full story. The police get bad press considering the fantastic job they do day in and day out.
  • colthe3rd said:

    Neither jury heard details of Harwood's prior disciplinary record, which can only be reported now. This includes how he quit the Met on health grounds in 2001 shortly before a planned disciplinary hearing into claims he illegally tried to arrest a driver following a road rage incident while off duty, altering his notes to retrospectively justify the actions. Harwood was nonetheless able to join another force, Surrey, before returning to serve with the Met in 2005.

    He allegedly punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform in other alleged incidents.

    because it had nothing to do with this case

    To be fair all the details of Harwoods previous were known prior to the case as they were widely reported after hte original investigation. The geezer has a suspect attitude.
  • colthe3rd said:

    Neither jury heard details of Harwood's prior disciplinary record, which can only be reported now. This includes how he quit the Met on health grounds in 2001 shortly before a planned disciplinary hearing into claims he illegally tried to arrest a driver following a road rage incident while off duty, altering his notes to retrospectively justify the actions. Harwood was nonetheless able to join another force, Surrey, before returning to serve with the Met in 2005.

    He allegedly punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform in other alleged incidents.

    because it had nothing to do with this case

    I think it all goes to the behaviour of the individual and I don't mean that just in this case. I agree with the comments that the force are a reflection of the society they police. Unfortunately, that isn't a nice thought for those who want to lead peaceful lives. As with society though, far more good than bad!

    Likely that this officer will be dismissed at his disciplinary tribunal in September (according to The Times report just out) now and there should certainly be questions as to how he was ever allowed back into the force in the first place.
  • Found not guilty.

    Good, I really don’t believe that pushing the bloke justifies a manslaughter conviction. He was deliberately being a dick on what was already a challenging day for the police
    Pushing? Have you read ANYTHING on the case? Or read the whole sequence of events? Harwood was a driver. Nothing else. He took it upon himself to get kitted up & go & join his 'mates', where he batoned & shoved Tomlinson, a clearly confused man and unassociated with the demo.
  • Found not guilty.

    To reiterate my point the media never tell the full story. The police get bad press considering the fantastic job they do day in and day out.

    Bad press? Ain't they in bed with the press? They get a fantastic press in my opinion and are rarely exposed.

  • Joke.
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  • Guess what...Harwood has faced 10 allegations of wrongdoing during his career.

    Once may be a mistake, twice is unfortunate, three accusations & he must've broken loads of mirrors....but TEN? Makes me sick.

  • Harwood is a thug in a policeman's uniform throwing his weight around and then hiding behind the badge, how many times have we seen that? For those who are talking about the situation - I appreciate that things were a little tense that day, but a PC with his experience could and should have handled the sitiation in afar more professional manner. He was not being threatened by Tomlinson and even if he was there were several other PCs around him. From the CCTV coverage anyone could discern that Ian Tomlinson was doing nothing more than being a bit annoying. He clearly was not part of any protest or was even with someone - the impression I had was that he was just being a bit curious and no doubt the few tins of stella he had drunk and his appearance made him a tad bolder/argumentative than was really the case.

    I presume that Harwood was charged with "Constructive manslaughter" which is defined as committing an unlawful and dangerous act which results in death.

    There are three requirements for this:

    The defendant must commit an unlawful act. This must be a criminal act and must involve a "mens rea" (or mental intention) that demonstrates either intent or recklessness. The illegal act in question was pushing Tomlinson and then smacking him with the baton on the back. He didn't have to think or tell anyone that he was going to hit the next protestor - just to act recklessly and criminally. As a policeman he is allowed to use a certain amount of force (see the PACE Act 1984 - I can't recall which section off the top of my head but it's in there somewhere).

    Secondly, the act must be dangerous. Whether the act is dangerous is however an objective thing and will differ from case to case and will depend on the perspective of an imaginary bystander/witness who is deemed to be "sober and reasonable". The defendant need not be aware the act is dangerous and the act need not be directed at the victim, although in this case it was. This allows a fair amount of force to be used in some cases while in others, such as this a minimum amount of force is used, the question revolves around proportionatality. The jury would need to be convinced here that Harwood acted with a disproportionate amount of force.

    The act must cause the death of the victim.

    The question is whether Harwood was deemed to be acting legally in pushing and then hitting Tomlinson with the baton. That is borderline legal/illegal, perhaps because he hit him once (I think) it was deemed by the jury to be acceptable - had he struck him several times when Tomlinson was say on the floor then it wouldn't have been.

    In my opinion a prosecution for assault/ABH could and should have been made alongside the manslaughter charge and that would have stood a much better chance of succeeding.


  • edited July 2012
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  • There's going to be a Protest at Scotland Yard at 6 pm.
  • edited July 2012
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  • He had a gun wrapped in a sock in the car, which was still in the sock when it was recovered from the scene and didn't have his prints on it.

    Nor did he fire a shot and according to some witnesses he was pinned to the floor when shot.

    Hardly "innocent" though.
    Not innocent at all and most would say good riddance, but the police messed it up & handled it awfully.
    But Sparrow you said he was innocent ??
  • Guess what...Harwood has faced 10 allegations of wrongdoing during his career.

    Once may be a mistake, twice is unfortunate, three accusations & he must've broken loads of mirrors....but TEN? Makes me sick.

    But he wasn't being charged on those - just his behaviour in this case.

    Let's face it someone who spent a considerable number of years in the police and was never promoted above the rank of PC is either unambitious or simply not considered suitable to do anything other than do plod work. On the day in question he was given the onerous task of looking after the vehicles and the radios. That suggests to me that he was little more than a gopher.

  • thanks for that blackforestred.

    thats the law.
    on my personal view...

    what a waste of time. glad the police can go around shoving and battering people. glad that a guy can get off and still be able to carry on with what is not his first time at heavy handed policing. 10 times. however you cant use that he is a serial offender and is obviously a nasty piece of work.



    The "Oh the police do such a good job" argument has no meaning here and on the most part yes they do alright.. in this instance its an individual who killed the guy it doesnt matter whether he's a police man or not,(in fact its probably worse) it doesnt excues him. i'm sure his actions were not meant to kill the guy but they did. you cant defend him because the police get bad treatment or bad rep. millwal get a bad rep by the media. if one of their fans knocks someone out and the guy dies from it i would hope that the millwall fan gets locked up, its not the rest of the fans or the clubs fault that one of their fans has killed someone.

    The only thing that has something to do with the police force is why is this guy even got a job with them?
  • J BLOCK said:

    He had a gun wrapped in a sock in the car, which was still in the sock when it was recovered from the scene and didn't have his prints on it.

    Nor did he fire a shot and according to some witnesses he was pinned to the floor when shot.

    Hardly "innocent" though.
    Not innocent at all and most would say good riddance, but the police messed it up & handled it awfully.
    But Sparrow you said he was innocent ??
    In the fact that he did nothing to earn being shot by police.

    But let's face it, he weren't the nicest bloke was he.

  • AS BFR says, strange there were no other charges in the alternative. A cynic might think they were "reasons" why the CPS did not include such counts. Me, I just think the CPS are worse than useless.
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  • how predictable.
  • edited July 2012
    The police often have a very difficult job....... the actions of this officer just made there duties more difficult.
    A peculiar verdict, that justice appears to be the victim of.
  • MrOneLung said:

    As stated on on threads re other cases - found not guilty, an innocent man.

    So true but that will go straight over a few heads

  • edited July 2012
    no it wont go over other peoples head we have seen the video
  • nolly said:

    no it wont go over other peoples head we have seen the video

    You saw the other video too but that never stopped you. As I said straight over your head.

  • what other video?
  • nolly said:

    what other video?

    Last comment - Exactly, straight over your head.

  • sorry just asking you first no need for smarmy comments
  • There will be a retaliation to this, but that has gone over some people's heads.
  • He had a gun wrapped in a sock in the car, which was still in the sock when it was recovered from the scene and didn't have his prints on it.

    Nor did he fire a shot and according to some witnesses he was pinned to the floor when shot.

    He had a gun wrapped in a sock in the car, which was still in the sock when it was recovered from the scene and didn't have his prints on it.

    Nor did he fire a shot and according to some witnesses he was pinned to the floor when shot.

    @Sparrows Lane Lion hand guns are carried in socks for 3 reasons: to conceal the weapon, to avoid fingerprints and to allow the weapon to be fired while concealed. I don't know as much about the case as you but just carrying a firearm (presumably illegal) puts you in jeopardy of being shot.

    I am not OB but I know from military training that lethal force can be used in circumstances where you believe yourself or others to be in mortal danger. This can potentially lead to innocent people being killed. There are rules of engagement which are usually based on intelligence (as appears to have happened in the case Mr Duggan i.e. he was suspected of carrying a firearm). That said, anyone employed by the state who kills someone in the course of their duties knows that they may ultimately face court to account for their action.

    Exercising restraint rather than using lethal force can lead to the death of the individuals concerned e.g. the two Royal Signals corporals in Northern Ireland and the six Royal Military Police in Iraq.

    I am not suggesting one person's life is more important than another's but if you think the other guy is armed and might shoot at you, you might be more inclined to shoot them before they get a chance to have a pop at you.
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