They'll be criticizing the club in 2 years time when we see him promoted to the Prem after he continues to develop in the Championship, because that's the sort of thing that will happen.
He's never going to be the level of players like Parker and Di Canio were for us, but he's easily worth keeping.
I wouldn't compare Parker to Sam as they are entirely different players. He's more like Shittu, a player I wish we'd kept. Sam is one of ours, he's Charlton.
Di canio came to us at the end of his career at the journeyman stage of his career. He was never a Charlton player in the same sense that Sam is.
Sorry I meant on the level of ability, ie would be a very good player in the Prem for most clubs. Obviously he's a very different player to either of them.
Shittu is like Turner and Campbell-Ryce, a few years younger and they'd have got a chance once we were relegated.
They've only developed into the players they are now because they left and got regular games in League One and the Championship. If we kept any of those 3, they'd have had a few bad games and you'd get fans saying "he'll never make it in the Premier League". Just like we have fans now that say Fortune and Sam aren't good enough.
Sam at his best is a prem player. Doesn't do it often enough, as many have noted. Perhaps he needs an inspirational manager/set-up to get him to do it more consistently.
The 'sell him and we can keep Bailey/Shelvey' argument is a red herring.
Unless we get a new board, decent offers for Sam, Bailey and Shelvey will see all three of them going, surely?
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]Well if Parky stays I imagine he's planning to put central midfielders in every position anyway.
To be honest of the starters from the last 3-4 games, I reckon we'll keep less than half so we are going to be beg/borrow/stealing in a number of positions. Keepers for example: 2 are bound to leave...
My point is McL, while sales are inevitable, they need to be kept to the bare minimum if we are serious about bouncing straight back. We made the mistake of writing too many players off as not good enough when we got relegated from the Prem and selling for the sake of it. We might be a poor Championship side, but still have players that will be amoungst the top players in League 1 and we have enough, I would think, to be able to sell some of our more sellable players whilst still hanging onto enough to not have the guts ripped out of the team.
We can still start next season with, say, Elliot, Solly, Youga, Sam, Racon, Semedo, Burton and Dickson even if we sell Hudson, Moots, Bailey, Shelvey and Gray, who should fetch 2 to 3M between them, at least, and they'll all be on better wages than most. On top of that we're potentially getting Ambrose, Holland, Fortune, Weaver off the wage bill who'll all be amoungst the very top earners at the club. That should surely be enough to patch the finances through another season, but would still leave us (with the addition of 3 or 4 canny frees/nominal fees/loans) with a team which should do fairly well in League 1, and would almost certainly give us a better chance of immediate promotion than a whole new side made up of complete strangers. If it doesn't work out we can sell of the rest of the players others want and there will be another batch out of contract who can be released, but we won't need another complete rebuild as the remaining players will have been around for a year.
This will only happen if the board are serious about bouncing back though and aren't just looking for the maximum return (or should that be minimal loss) on their investment and the quickest route out of the building. Oh, and we'll need a manager who can make those canny, cheap signings to finish the team off. It's a matter of opinion if that's Parkinson or not, but I'd rather him than Sanchez!
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]My point is McL, while sales are inevitable, they need to be kept to the bare minimum if we are serious about bouncing straight back. We made the mistake of writing too many players off as not good enough when we got relegated from the Prem and selling for the sake of it. We might be a poor Championship side, but still have players that will be amoungst the top players in League 1 and we have enough, I would think, to be able to sell some of our more sellable players whilst still hanging onto enough to not have the guts ripped out of the team.
I agree we need to keep a a good group of players, Elliot, Bailey, Shelvey, Sam, Racon, Semedo etc, but did we really write off that many players after relegation from the Prem?
We released Hughes who we could have tried to keep, but JFH had to go, El Karkouri wanted to go. Bent, Young and Hreidarsson all had better offers, Faye was never going to work out for us. Could argue we should have kept Marcus Bent? Lisbie I guess, but Pardew later said about Lisbie's injury record, we didn't think he could stay fit for a season but he did in the end at Colchester.
Parkinson or a.n other will play 442 and will need to sell one decent centre mid to balance the books/squad.There is absolutely no way we should be contemplating selling our only winger unless the offer is top dollar.
Much as I like Bailey and appreciate his contibution I would rather see him go than Sam.
A decent manager to coach him in the right way and get the best out of him would make Sam the best winger in League 1 by a country mile and a very good Championship player for the year after. Show pony or not, I pay my money to be entertained and he is one of the few in our team that can on occasion do that. The hard workers and battlers are great but you need a mix in every good team.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]My point is McL, while sales are inevitable, they need to be kept to the bare minimum if we are serious about bouncing straight back. We made the mistake of writing too many players off as not good enough when we got relegated from the Prem and selling for the sake of it. We might be a poor Championship side, but still have players that will be amoungst the top players in League 1 and we have enough, I would think, to be able to sell some of our more sellable players whilst still hanging onto enough to not have the guts ripped out of the team.
I agree we need to keep a a good group of players, Elliot, Bailey, Shelvey, Sam, Racon, Semedo etc, but did we really write off that many players after relegation from the Prem?
We released Hughes who we could have tried to keep, but JFH had to go, El Karkouri wanted to go. Bent, Young and Hreidarsson all had better offers, Faye was never going to work out for us. Could argue we should have kept Marcus Bent? Lisbie I guess, but Pardew later said about Lisbie's injury record, we didn't think he could stay fit for a season but he did in the end at Colchester.
Diawara, Reid. Mhyre I'd have tried to hang onto for one full season. And I'm not buying the old "he wanted to go" boo-hoo. Other clubs manage to keep players that would like to be elsewhere. The world player of the year has been sniffing after a move for three seasons now, but Sir manages to squeeze a performance out of the sulky little winker.
I think it's fairly immaterial to be honest, because we're up to our neck in debt from the people who will be making the selling decisions. I'd say if we keep 2-3 of the current first choicers, it will be good going. If we got an inspirational manager in that might change a bit, but I'm not seeing a lot of that on the horizon.
[cite]Posted By: (1984)[/cite]Parkinson or a.n other will play 442 and will need to sell one decent centre mid to balance the books/squad.There is absolutely no way we should be contemplating selling our only winger unless the offer is top dollar.
Much as I like Bailey and appreciate his contibution I would rather see him go than Sam.
I agree we need to keep a a good group of players, Elliot, Bailey, Shelvey, Sam, Racon, Semedo etc, but did we really write off that many players after relegation from the Prem?
We released Hughes who we could have tried to keep, but JFH had to go, El Karkouri wanted to go. Bent, Young and Hreidarsson all had better offers, Faye was never going to work out for us. Could argue we should have kept Marcus Bent? Lisbie I guess, but Pardew later said about Lisbie's injury record, we didn't think he could stay fit for a season but he did in the end at Colchester.
You forgot Rommedahl, lol
Hughes was actually out of contract and was offered a new contract, but chose Hull instead.
We lost also Carson who played all but the 2 Liverpool matches in goal.
So regular senior squad players departed that summer:
Carson
Young
El Kak
Herman
Rommedahl
Hughes
JFK
Darren Bent
Lisbie
Diawara
And in practical terms, you could add Faye and Marcus to that little list.
12 players = more than a possible side, including the 1st choice keeper & back 4, our quality striker - and all internationals bar Hughes.
So no doubt losing half the regular senior squad made a significant difference to the quality and perhaps togetherness of the side, despite what people say about Faye and Marcus Bent, and the spent force JFH.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]I agree we need to keep a a good group of players, Elliot, Bailey, Shelvey, Sam, Racon, Semedo etc, but did we really write off that many players after relegation from the Prem?
We released Hughes who we could have tried to keep, but JFH had to go, El Karkouri wanted to go. Bent, Young and Hreidarsson all had better offers, Faye was never going to work out for us. Could argue we should have kept Marcus Bent? Lisbie I guess, but Pardew later said about Lisbie's injury record, we didn't think he could stay fit for a season but he did in the end at Colchester.
Maybe the Club's hands were tied a bit with some, but we could have worked harder to hang onto Lisbie (I still don't see how on earth Pardew thought Varney or Mcleod were better) El Kark, Diawara & Mhyre (as Morts says) plus Hughes was probably better than what we bought in instead. I don't quite see why Faye was never going to work out either. He's done okay at Stoke this year because he's been given a run and had some faith shown in him. Pele he never was, but could have been a good player for us in the Champs if we hadn't written him off without really giving him a chance. I hated Marcus Bent's guts and was glad we sold him because of that, but if I'm honest, he was better player than the strikers we brought in, with the possible exception of Iwelumo who we then sold anyway. Lisbie and Bent may not have been a bad pairing, certainly when viewed against £3.5M spent on Varney and Mcleod.
Anyway, my point was as much about the fans as the club - Sam is a classic example, too many people can't see past the fact he was a bit in and out this year and seem to think that just makes him a rubbish player, despite the fact we're playing weaker teams next year. The same was true after the last relegation and I have to admit I was bit guilty of that too.
[cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite]
I think it's fairly immaterial to be honest, because we're up to our neck in debt from the people who will be making the selling decisions. I'd say if we keep 2-3 of the current first choicers, it will be good going. If we got an inspirational manager in that might change a bit, but I'm not seeing a lot of that on the horizon.
I think that is the bottom line Morts, and sadly, if that is how it pans out, that will mean a board we once reverred and trusted will be selling us down the river. I hope it's not how it comes to pass, but I'm inclined to agree as the current noises I'm hearing all point that way.
My point was we were never going to realistically keep Carson, we couldn't afford him. Young, Bent and Hredarsson were and still are Prem players.
I can't imagine that one Charlton fan wanted to keep JFH or Rommedahl. Both did very little for us, and one was saying if we went down he wouldn't play in the Championship anyway.
Diawara fair point, but we needed the money and wasn't his agent trying to force a move? Reid we at least kept until January, and from what a few people on here said the other day Pardew was happy for him to go and bring Gray in, so that was really Pardew's fault.
El Karkouri didn't even want to play in Europe any more, never mind England. Wasn't going to happen.
Myhre fair point, can understand why he wanted to go after being dropped for Carson though.
Lisbie as I said Pardew made the point sometime in the last year or year and half that he didn't think he could stay fit for a while season, he never did all the seasons before we went down.
So realistically there was no chance of that being our main squad after relegation.
[cite]Posted By: scruffle[/cite]What a load of poney - the vast majority of these comments that is.
We would really struggle to replace Sam - our only winger at the club.
He's finally been given a decent run in the team and funny enough that has coincided with him showing some consistancy. And he's one of own own.
I will also add that when i have brought various non Charlton friends to the Valley this season, i have always been questioned as to why our support seem not to rate him. The general concensus being that he's our best player.
As for assists. Surely it's hard to get an assist when you have strikers that couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo?
Lloyd Sam is like many wingers fast not much football brain and complete enigma. However we will need his pace next year and there were signs that he is gaining in confidence and likely to deliver the final ball more.
I think unless we are offered 1 million minimum we would be best hanging on to him because your not going to find much of a replacement even at div 3 level with less than that assuming the board will want to spread the fee for other players.
It's true every player has his price but if we go too much down that route we will become the Charlton of old.
[cite]Posted By: scruffle[/cite]What a load of poney - the vast majority of these comments that is.
We would really struggle to replace Sam - our only winger at the club.
He's finally been given a decent run in the team and funny enough that has coincided with him showing some consistancy. And he's one of own own.
I will also add that when i have brought various non Charlton friends to the Valley this season, i have always been questioned as to why our support seem not to rate him. The general concensus being that he's our best player.
As for assists. Surely it's hard to get an assist when you have strikers that couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo?
Likewise, most away fans I've chatted to after games have always mentioned how dangerous he looked and if only we'd had a striker....
Unfortunatley the support or lack of it is just the "Charlton way", sad very sad but when did we last have a winger the crowd liked, mayb Robinson/lee (and I seem to remember them gettin slated at the time)?! Think it was years of Curbs playin a flat 4 we've forgotten wingers can be unpredictable and that gives them that edge against the full backs as they never now if they're going past or comin in.
Again we would really struggle to replace with anyone better and get change from a million.
Why did we need the money from Diawara though Scho? Partly because we'd spunked most of the parachute money on over priced and over paid, soon-to-be-failures, like Varney, Mcleod etc. A more trgetted and structured approach to transfers both in and out might have meant we could have afforded to keep a few more of the old squad together.
Like I say, I was in favour of a big clear out that summer but hindsight tells us that it proved very difficult to replace the departees with similar standard players and that the number new players just took too long to gel, and eventually almost totally failed to.
Thanks to that experience I can now say I think to approach next season the way we approached 07/08 would be foolish since we have such recent experience of what can go wrong.
The previous relegation caused a huge upheaval in the number of players leaving the club and being replaced with new players coming in.
And it's going to happen again, sadly.
We can see that we finally have the nucleus of a good side, certainly good enough to make the necessary impact in the Third Division. Now many of those players will be moved on to cash in their financial value - and the whole process of building an effective team will have to start again.
2 years ago, many key players were replaced with much inferior signings, at great expense.
This time round, key players sold will be replaced with again inferior signings, especially as there is virtually no money.
Profits from player sales will go towards the day to day running of the club and servicing debt.
And so the downward spiral continues.
Spot on, Oggy. We are in grave danger of repeating all the mistakes of relegation from the Prem. Then we had Darren Bent as our cash cow (sorry, Baby!), now it is Jonjo. Sell the star plus a few others for lots of dosh to supposedly preserve financial stability, but still give a new(ish) manager some of the cach to splurge on inferior-quality players and loans, gambling everything on a bounce straight back strategy. I'd have thought we'd have learnt the lesson of that, but sincerely fear we haven't.
The best chance we will have of bouncing straight back is if we keep the bulk of this squad together for one more season. There are already some major gaps to fill at CH and striker before we go creating more gaps by selling players like Lloyd.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]And so the downward spiral continues.
Precisely Oggy, which is why we need strong backing and leadership from the board more now than at anytime since 1992.
The trouble is, 90% of the board have lost interest, not as fans, but as financial backers. I don't blame them, it's tough times and they've been in for a long while. Doesn't change the fact that it's probably at the root of our problems.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]The previous relegation caused a huge upheaval in the number of players leaving the club and being replaced with new players coming in.
And it's going to happen again, sadly.
We can see that we finally have thenucleusof a good side, certainly good enough to make the necessary impact in the Third Division. Now many of those players will be moved on to cash in their financial value - and the whole process of building an effective team will have to start again.
2 years ago, many key players were replaced with much inferior signings, at great expense.
This time round, key players sold will be replaced with again inferior signings, especially as there is virtually no money.
Profits from player sales will go towards the day to day running of the club and servicing debt.
And so the downward spiral continues.
Yep, when we were relegated from the premiership the previous time, we bounced straight back. Why? Well, among other reasons, we KEPT the nucleus of the squad.
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]The best chance we will have of bouncing straight back is if we keep the bulk of this squad together for one more season. There are already some major gaps to fill at CH and striker before we go creating more gaps by selling players like Lloyd.
Yeah exactly. He's still young and will gain in confidence and improve, something I feel is a lot less likely to happen with players like Ambrose, or Thomas when he was here this time last year.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]Why did we need the money from Diawara though Scho? Partly because we'd spunked most of the parachute money on over priced and over paid, soon-to-be-failures, like Varney, Mcleod etc. A more trgetted and structured approach to transfers both in and out might have meant we could have afforded to keep a few more of the old squad together.
Like I say, I was in favour of a big clear out that summer but hindsight tells us that it proved very difficult to replace the departees with similar standard players and that the number new players just took too long to gel, and eventually almost totally failed to.
Thanks to that experience I can now say I think to approach next season the way we approached 07/08 would be foolish since we have such recent experience of what can go wrong.
110% correct, and possibly a sadly accurate prediction.
Comments
You should be ashamed of yourselves. Fucking pisses me off the way people slag him off.
He's never going to be the level of players like Parker and Di Canio were for us, but he's easily worth keeping.
Di canio came to us at the end of his career at the journeyman stage of his career. He was never a Charlton player in the same sense that Sam is.
Shittu is like Turner and Campbell-Ryce, a few years younger and they'd have got a chance once we were relegated.
They've only developed into the players they are now because they left and got regular games in League One and the Championship. If we kept any of those 3, they'd have had a few bad games and you'd get fans saying "he'll never make it in the Premier League". Just like we have fans now that say Fortune and Sam aren't good enough.
The 'sell him and we can keep Bailey/Shelvey' argument is a red herring.
Unless we get a new board, decent offers for Sam, Bailey and Shelvey will see all three of them going, surely?
My point is McL, while sales are inevitable, they need to be kept to the bare minimum if we are serious about bouncing straight back. We made the mistake of writing too many players off as not good enough when we got relegated from the Prem and selling for the sake of it. We might be a poor Championship side, but still have players that will be amoungst the top players in League 1 and we have enough, I would think, to be able to sell some of our more sellable players whilst still hanging onto enough to not have the guts ripped out of the team.
We can still start next season with, say, Elliot, Solly, Youga, Sam, Racon, Semedo, Burton and Dickson even if we sell Hudson, Moots, Bailey, Shelvey and Gray, who should fetch 2 to 3M between them, at least, and they'll all be on better wages than most. On top of that we're potentially getting Ambrose, Holland, Fortune, Weaver off the wage bill who'll all be amoungst the very top earners at the club. That should surely be enough to patch the finances through another season, but would still leave us (with the addition of 3 or 4 canny frees/nominal fees/loans) with a team which should do fairly well in League 1, and would almost certainly give us a better chance of immediate promotion than a whole new side made up of complete strangers. If it doesn't work out we can sell of the rest of the players others want and there will be another batch out of contract who can be released, but we won't need another complete rebuild as the remaining players will have been around for a year.
This will only happen if the board are serious about bouncing back though and aren't just looking for the maximum return (or should that be minimal loss) on their investment and the quickest route out of the building. Oh, and we'll need a manager who can make those canny, cheap signings to finish the team off. It's a matter of opinion if that's Parkinson or not, but I'd rather him than Sanchez!
I agree we need to keep a a good group of players, Elliot, Bailey, Shelvey, Sam, Racon, Semedo etc, but did we really write off that many players after relegation from the Prem?
We released Hughes who we could have tried to keep, but JFH had to go, El Karkouri wanted to go. Bent, Young and Hreidarsson all had better offers, Faye was never going to work out for us. Could argue we should have kept Marcus Bent? Lisbie I guess, but Pardew later said about Lisbie's injury record, we didn't think he could stay fit for a season but he did in the end at Colchester.
Much as I like Bailey and appreciate his contibution I would rather see him go than Sam.
Diawara, Reid. Mhyre I'd have tried to hang onto for one full season. And I'm not buying the old "he wanted to go" boo-hoo. Other clubs manage to keep players that would like to be elsewhere. The world player of the year has been sniffing after a move for three seasons now, but Sir manages to squeeze a performance out of the sulky little winker.
I think it's fairly immaterial to be honest, because we're up to our neck in debt from the people who will be making the selling decisions. I'd say if we keep 2-3 of the current first choicers, it will be good going. If we got an inspirational manager in that might change a bit, but I'm not seeing a lot of that on the horizon.
We would really struggle to replace Sam - our only winger at the club.
He's finally been given a decent run in the team and funny enough that has coincided with him showing some consistancy. And he's one of own own.
agreed
You forgot Rommedahl, lol
Hughes was actually out of contract and was offered a new contract, but chose Hull instead.
We lost also Carson who played all but the 2 Liverpool matches in goal.
So regular senior squad players departed that summer:
Carson
Young
El Kak
Herman
Rommedahl
Hughes
JFK
Darren Bent
Lisbie
Diawara
And in practical terms, you could add Faye and Marcus to that little list.
12 players = more than a possible side, including the 1st choice keeper & back 4, our quality striker - and all internationals bar Hughes.
So no doubt losing half the regular senior squad made a significant difference to the quality and perhaps togetherness of the side, despite what people say about Faye and Marcus Bent, and the spent force JFH.
Maybe the Club's hands were tied a bit with some, but we could have worked harder to hang onto Lisbie (I still don't see how on earth Pardew thought Varney or Mcleod were better) El Kark, Diawara & Mhyre (as Morts says) plus Hughes was probably better than what we bought in instead. I don't quite see why Faye was never going to work out either. He's done okay at Stoke this year because he's been given a run and had some faith shown in him. Pele he never was, but could have been a good player for us in the Champs if we hadn't written him off without really giving him a chance. I hated Marcus Bent's guts and was glad we sold him because of that, but if I'm honest, he was better player than the strikers we brought in, with the possible exception of Iwelumo who we then sold anyway. Lisbie and Bent may not have been a bad pairing, certainly when viewed against £3.5M spent on Varney and Mcleod.
Anyway, my point was as much about the fans as the club - Sam is a classic example, too many people can't see past the fact he was a bit in and out this year and seem to think that just makes him a rubbish player, despite the fact we're playing weaker teams next year. The same was true after the last relegation and I have to admit I was bit guilty of that too.
I think that is the bottom line Morts, and sadly, if that is how it pans out, that will mean a board we once reverred and trusted will be selling us down the river. I hope it's not how it comes to pass, but I'm inclined to agree as the current noises I'm hearing all point that way.
I can't imagine that one Charlton fan wanted to keep JFH or Rommedahl. Both did very little for us, and one was saying if we went down he wouldn't play in the Championship anyway.
Diawara fair point, but we needed the money and wasn't his agent trying to force a move? Reid we at least kept until January, and from what a few people on here said the other day Pardew was happy for him to go and bring Gray in, so that was really Pardew's fault.
El Karkouri didn't even want to play in Europe any more, never mind England. Wasn't going to happen.
Myhre fair point, can understand why he wanted to go after being dropped for Carson though.
Lisbie as I said Pardew made the point sometime in the last year or year and half that he didn't think he could stay fit for a while season, he never did all the seasons before we went down.
So realistically there was no chance of that being our main squad after relegation.
However I suspect that any player we get offered a fee for will be sold.
I will also add that when i have brought various non Charlton friends to the Valley this season, i have always been questioned as to why our support seem not to rate him. The general concensus being that he's our best player.
As for assists. Surely it's hard to get an assist when you have strikers that couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo?
i would let him go if the money was enough shame but he has not delivered consistantly
I think unless we are offered 1 million minimum we would be best hanging on to him because your not going to find much of a replacement even at div 3 level with less than that assuming the board will want to spread the fee for other players.
It's true every player has his price but if we go too much down that route we will become the Charlton of old.
Likewise, most away fans I've chatted to after games have always mentioned how dangerous he looked and if only we'd had a striker....
Unfortunatley the support or lack of it is just the "Charlton way", sad very sad but when did we last have a winger the crowd liked, mayb Robinson/lee (and I seem to remember them gettin slated at the time)?! Think it was years of Curbs playin a flat 4 we've forgotten wingers can be unpredictable and that gives them that edge against the full backs as they never now if they're going past or comin in.
Again we would really struggle to replace with anyone better and get change from a million.
Like I say, I was in favour of a big clear out that summer but hindsight tells us that it proved very difficult to replace the departees with similar standard players and that the number new players just took too long to gel, and eventually almost totally failed to.
Thanks to that experience I can now say I think to approach next season the way we approached 07/08 would be foolish since we have such recent experience of what can go wrong.
And it's going to happen again, sadly.
We can see that we finally have the nucleus of a good side, certainly good enough to make the necessary impact in the Third Division. Now many of those players will be moved on to cash in their financial value - and the whole process of building an effective team will have to start again.
2 years ago, many key players were replaced with much inferior signings, at great expense.
This time round, key players sold will be replaced with again inferior signings, especially as there is virtually no money.
Profits from player sales will go towards the day to day running of the club and servicing debt.
And so the downward spiral continues.
The best chance we will have of bouncing straight back is if we keep the bulk of this squad together for one more season. There are already some major gaps to fill at CH and striker before we go creating more gaps by selling players like Lloyd.
Precisely Oggy, which is why we need strong backing and leadership from the board more now than at anytime since 1992.
The trouble is, 90% of the board have lost interest, not as fans, but as financial backers. I don't blame them, it's tough times and they've been in for a long while. Doesn't change the fact that it's probably at the root of our problems.
Yep, when we were relegated from the premiership the previous time, we bounced straight back. Why? Well, among other reasons, we KEPT the nucleus of the squad.
Yeah exactly. He's still young and will gain in confidence and improve, something I feel is a lot less likely to happen with players like Ambrose, or Thomas when he was here this time last year.
:)
It was easier cos we still had the remenants of the side that took us up in the first place
Are you his agent?