whatever, whatever. At the end of the day last night's performance was unacceptable for me. Kids, no kids, recovering from injuries, fit players, squad players, first team players, whatever. IT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH !!!
[cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]seth do you really think that with a different manager and the same team last night that we would have won?
My main point is that Parkinson must take responsibility, if you read the thread from folk who went (unlike me) you will detect the frustration of lack of desire, organisation and structure which I'd have thought a manager can influence, and we knew we were playing this game ages ago, so a signal regarding what was expected from the team could have been communicated to the players by the/a manager. Last nights team was presumably selected by Parkinson....I can only think because the goat was indisposed.
Jesus fella we had a kid at right back, centre mid, and 2 left backs in defence, a kid in midfield, a week by week contract winger, and a kid with half a dozen games under his belt playing wide. Parky didnt pick to have injuries ripping the team apart nor did he choose to have a transfer embargo until things are finalised.
If he played Bailey and racon last night and they got injured where would we be.
I see it he had no choice we fielded a team we thought could score and we lost 1-0. No drama lets judge him after half a dozen games in this league on the free transfers he has been allowed.
[cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]seth do you really think that with a different manager and the same team last night that we would have won?
My main point is that Parkinson must take responsibility, if you read the thread from folk who went (unlike me) you will detect the frustration of lack of desire, organisation and structure which I'd have thought a manager can influence, and we knew we were playing this game ages ago, so a signal regarding what was expected from the team could have been communicated to the players by the/a manager. Last nights team was presumably selected by Parkinson....I can only think because the goat was indisposed.
Jesus fella we had a kid at right back, centre mid, and 2 left backs in defence, a kid in midfield, a week by week contract winger, and a kid with half a dozen games under his belt playing wide. Parky didnt pick to have injuries ripping the team apart nor did he choose to have a transfer embargo until things are finalised.
If he played Bailey and racon last night and they got injured where would we be.
I see it he had no choice we fielded a team we thought could score and we lost 1-0. No drama lets judge him after half a dozen games in this league on the free transfers he has been allowed.
we are in League 1 not the Premiership and we don't have the luxury of resting our better players imo. Just as much chance of being injured at Hartlepool as there was last night so what's the point. However getting through would have enhanced confidence and may have brought us a money spinning tie in the next round. As it is negativity has returned, at least from those there to witness such a abject display.
Just got up after getting home at 3.30. It would've been 2.30 if Gray had scored that bloody penalty!
Abject performance from start to finish. McCleod and Gray both guilty of glaring misses. But..... decent performance by Stavrinou who played the full 120 minutes.
I reckon Parkinson should stay in Hereford and sign their players Ryan Green and Marc Pugh, both very good on the night.
Finally, well done to me and the other 322 Charlton fans for sitting through the whole pitiful spectacle.
If we had got through, and achieved a home game against Arsenal, and the ground was full and vibrant, and we gained the ticket income, and prospective buyers had seen all that....then just maybe that would have been a 'good thing', but not as good as saving our players for the big one at Hartlepool eh?
[cite]Posted By: Tommy Dowling[/cite]Just got up after getting home at 3.30. It would've been 2.30 if Gray had scored that bloody penalty!
Abject performance from start to finish. McCleod and Gray both guilty of glaring misses. But..... decent performance by Stavrinou who played the full 120 minutes.
I reckon Parkinson should stay in Hereford and sign their players Ryan Green and Marc Pugh, both very good on the night.
Finally, well done to me and the other 322 Charlton fans for sitting through the whole pitiful spectacle.
I stood and although we have a romantic notion of wanting standing to return I really don't believe it's all it's cracked up to be. I'd much rather have sat.
[cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]As an aside if that was a midweek league match with that team I would have taken 0-0 I think.
Your sights are set very low then and it wouldn't be a league game, because they are not in our league.
I appreciate the "optimist" group have to put a silver lining on things, but I like to imagine that Hereford would certainly have "taken" a draw; which means we should really be hoping for better. There's an outside chance that one day Parky will "succeed". By then though I suspect a few on here will have reduced expectations still further.
"A five one home defeat to Bury would be a decent result. They have a tight defence and our reserve left back is injured".
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]we are in League 1 not the Premiership and we don't have the luxury of resting our better players imo. Just as much chance of being injured at Hartlepool as there was last night so what's the point. However getting through would have enhanced confidence and may have brought us a money spinning tie in the next round. As it is negativity has returned, at least from those there to witness such a abject display.
We don't have the luxury? Erm... yes we do. We can do what we want, doesn't matter what league we are in. Why risk Bailey and Racon in a game that is a lot, lot less important than a league game, where we have to play our best available team? Yeah it could have enhanced confidence, but it wasn't worth the risk IMO.
[cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]As an aside if that was a midweek league match with that team I would have taken 0-0 I think.
Your sights are set very low then and it wouldn't be a league game, because they are not in our league.
Hence the word "if".
We made 8 changes from saturday and players were playing out of their position and making their debuts. Maybe your expectations are too high if you think that every member of our team and squad should be competing with beating everyone who is put in front of them. They are simply not good enough IMO.
And to add to what I said, I'm not saying I'm part of the "optimist group", I don't rate Stavrinou, Wagstaff, Spring, Youga and McLeod that highly to think they'll win comfortably against a team that were in our division just last season. Gray is still getting fit, Solly is promising but it was his first start in a competitive game and Small was making his competitive debut at a new club.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]being flippant maybe we should rest Racon and Bailey all season so they are fit for the Play-Off Final.
But one bad tackle (even from the player himself!) could put them out for the season. Yeah it could happen in a league game, but it's one less game to worry about. That one game could make the difference, though we'll never know of course. Look at when we brought Racon back last year, probably too early and he got injured again.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]...Parkinson was the manager, we lost, his responsibility, end of.
If you want to look at things that way then fair enough. But if you are doing that then you would undoubtedly agree then that the league win against Wycombe on Saturday was Parky's responsibility. End Of. ?
Now we know that that wasn't the case, and nor was last night.
If we are going to instantly analyse every single result this season to the nth degree then it is going to be a very long season. Hands were tied last night meaning a weakened side. Whether he should have played those other first teamers who were available, and whether they would have faired any better, is mere hindsight, and can only really be judged later on, in how we perform in the upcoming league games, and in the tail end of the season if certain players are still fresh. JonJo for an example, if fit and in form will play as a 17yr old between 40-50 games this season. As will Racon, who has never yet played a full season due to injuries.
Every case needs to be looked at individually, and in the main, i stand by the decision to put that team out last night. If we are running with a squad, we need to know what everyone in that squad is capable of.
And as others have pointed out, if Andy Gray (our highest earner at the club) had scored his penalty, we would have won 1-0, and everyone would have been getting excited on what a great start to the season we have had. The margins are so small. Had we been dicked 3-0 last night, then the complaints would have been justified IMO.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]If we are running with a squad, we need to know what everyone in that squad is capable of.
And it was the perfect opportunity for that, which is part of the reason I also agree with the team we put out.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]The margins are so small.
I think that's an important point. If we had conceded against Wycombe again and drew 3-3 there would be a lot of talk about how Parkinson has proved in just 2 games that he's not up to the job. And like you said, a 1-0 win last night and we'd be saying it's a solid start to the season, and how the back up/young players/players out of position did quite well.
Can I be the first to say that even if gray had scored his penalty and we'd won, I would not have been getting excited. We were awful last night, bad second half against Wycombe. Neither opposition is going to be high up our league, where we are aiming, and so I can only conclude that neither will we. From what I've seen on the squad we have we'll be lucky to make the play offs.
[cite]Posted By: allez les addicks[/cite]Can I be the first to say that even if gray had scored his penalty and we'd won, I would not have been getting excited. We were awful last night, bad second half against Wycombe. Neither opposition is going to be high up our league, where we are aiming, and so I can only conclude that neither will we. From what I've seen on the squad we have we'll be lucky to make the play offs.
I'd hope no one would be getting excited. Like I said we lack any real depth to the squad, which is why we still want to bring in players. Parky wants two centre backs and I'm sure we all hope he wants at least one striker (and then we'll probably let one go). Small might be the squad player we need on the wing, if not we can release him and get someone else in.
Three weeks time we'll have a much better idea of how we are likely to do.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]If you want to look at things that way then fair enough. But if you are doing that then you would undoubtedly agree then that the league win against Wycombe on Saturday was Parky's responsibility. End Of. ?
Yes, and I have said so repeatedly, I am judging Philip Parkinson on his results, I was not convinced by the team on Saturday, but we got three juicy points, we need to follow that with a draw at Hartlepool and a draw at Orient minimum, anything more is a cushion against anything going wrong anything less means that Philip Parkinson will have to do a lot to convince me it's not the same old same old...in fact despite having tickets for Orient two 0-0 draws will be OK for me and will mean we must then win at home to Walsall.
We're out of the cup, lost the chance of any money spinning tie next round, and I think Philip Parkinson has to accept responsibility for that...he made a poor call regarding the team, and those that did play by all accounts weren't set up well enough to compete convincingly....his responsibility end of.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]
Yes, and I have said so repeatedly, I am judging Philip Parkinson on his results, I was not convinced by the team on Saturday, but we got three juicy points, we need to follow that with a draw at Hartlepool and a draw at Orient minimum, anything more is a cushion against anything going wrong anything less means that Philip Parkinson will have to do a lot to convince me it's not the same old same old...in fact despite having tickets for Orient two 0-0 draws will be OK for me and will mean we must then win at home to Walsall.
We're out of the cup, lost the chance of any money spinning tie next round, and I think Philip Parkinson has to accept responsibility for that...he made a poor call regarding the team, and those that did play by all accounts weren't set up well enough to compete convincingly....his responsibility end of.
Seth, this is just my opinion and i apologise if it comes across as patronising because that isn't the intention.....
but take a step back man ! 'cushions in the first three games' 'must-win 4th game', there's too much intensity to it. We as a club are in limbo at the moment, and i don't think we will be able to properly analyse our squad, and with that results and performances until mid-september at the earliest. Straight away you're putting too much pressure on perfect scenarios.
Only 5 or 6 teams have what you would class as brilliant seasons. Given where we are and what we have just been through, the chances of one of them being us this season are pretty slim.
You gonna have to find yourself some enjoyment out of the whole thing, because if you're going to base the whole thing solely on results then the liklihood is your going to be very disappointed.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]
Yes, and I have said so repeatedly, I am judging Philip Parkinson on his results, I was not convinced by the team on Saturday, but we got three juicy points, we need to follow that with a draw at Hartlepool and a draw at Orient minimum, anything more is a cushion against anything going wrong anything less means that Philip Parkinson will have to do a lot to convince me it's not the same old same old...in fact despite having tickets for Orient two 0-0 draws will be OK for me and will mean we must then win at home to Walsall.
We're out of the cup, lost the chance of any money spinning tie next round, and I think Philip Parkinson has to accept responsibility for that...he made a poor call regarding the team, and those that did play by all accounts weren't set up well enough to compete convincingly....his responsibility end of.
Seth, this is just my opinion and i apologise if it comes across as patronising because that isn't the intention.....
but take a step back man ! 'cushions in the first three games' 'must-win 4th game', there's too much intensity to it. We as a club are in limbo at the moment, and i don't think we will be able to properly analyse our squad, and with that results and performances until mid-september at the earliest. Straight away you're putting too much pressure on perfect scenarios.
Only 5 or 6 teams have what you would class as brilliant seasons. Given where we are and what we have just been through, the chances of one of them being us this season are pretty slim.
You gonna have to find yourself some enjoyment out of the whole thing, because if you're going to base the whole thing solely on results then the liklihood is your going to be very disappointed.
It's not patronising....but you well know my attitude. We are a club who's management on and off the pitch I am unimpressed with, but for me it has not always been like this, the last 2-3 seasons has eroded my love and enthusiasm to the point where I feel alienated from my club. I don't blame either Parkinson or Waggott completely for the mess we're in, and I understand the fact that they are happy to stick around and take the wages partly paid for by me...but my personal level of tolerance is at an end, even if you see it as putting pressure on. I expect Parkinson to get the players to win every home game and draw every away game as near as dammit, and I expect Steve Waggott to stop contributing utter crap in a public forum like the programme (on Saturday there was a refreshing absence of his usual b*llocks in the programme, but if you want an object lesson in patronising may I refer the right honourable gentleman to Waggotts programme notes of last season).
Having the last three years of bitter bitter disappointment, watching my fine club being run into the ground, I just don't want to take it lying down, which is why I will post here, e-mail Waggott, and try to encourage the Supporters Trust by offering money and shares despite the initial meeting being called by somebody at the other end of the supporting spectrum to me, and whose views I usually disagree with.
As a point of interest, if supporters like me don't start judging on results, that is even more reason for the current regime to think everything in the garden is fine, and the mug punters will tolerate any old rubbish providing the odd rare win in an 'indifferent' season is 'dedicated' to us.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]
As a point of interest, if supporters like me don't start judging on results,
No, i agree to judge on results. But the question is 'when', and when in my mind is not after one league game (a win) and one cup game featuring largely our reserves (a defeat), but when the transfer window has closed, and a settled team has played 12-15 games.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]No, i agree to judge on results. But the question is 'when', and when in my mind is not after one league game (a win) and one cup game featuring largely our reserves (a defeat), but when the transfer window has closed, and a settled team has played 12-15 games.
Agree.
Like you said, the chance of a brilliant season is slim. Because we were safely in mid table in the Prem only a few years ago, we've still got the expectation that in League One we should be winning the league and not having a problem against a League Two side in the cup. From what I've seen of the likes of Wagstaff, Stavrinou, Spring, Youga and McLeod, I was never confident when I saw the lineup that we would beat Hereford.
While Bailey, Racon, Shelvey etc are Championship players, many of the youngsters are League Two or Conference standard at best with few exceptions, possibly Solly. And then there's players like McLeod, Spring and Youga who have never stood out for us and aren't going to dominate against a team in a league below us. Sounds bad but Spring just never dominates a game, we all know what Youga is like and McLeod probably doesn't have much confidence.
We don't have a big squad, we don't have much quality cover, the result last night just wasn't a surprise. We are no longer that good as a squad that we can play only 3 players from our first choice eleven and win comfortably against a team in a league below us.
While all the playing staff isn't down to Mr Philip Parkinson, Matthew Spring is, and presumably he picks the team...our bench last night was packed with 'first teamers', wasn't that Parkinsons choice too? Maybe he was worried less by injury than the levels of fitness (an area commented on by, a number of posters after the Wycombe game) and of course as supervisor of pre-season training he would be responsible for levels of fitness. Mr Parkinson has had every chance with the resources available to get things sorted, and he also knew we would be playing at Hereford, did he plan for that? Eight changes suggest he wasn't without choices, and the choices he made led to the defeat witnessed by 300+ loyal souls.
Comments
Jesus fella we had a kid at right back, centre mid, and 2 left backs in defence, a kid in midfield, a week by week contract winger, and a kid with half a dozen games under his belt playing wide. Parky didnt pick to have injuries ripping the team apart nor did he choose to have a transfer embargo until things are finalised.
If he played Bailey and racon last night and they got injured where would we be.
I see it he had no choice we fielded a team we thought could score and we lost 1-0. No drama lets judge him after half a dozen games in this league on the free transfers he has been allowed.
we are in League 1 not the Premiership and we don't have the luxury of resting our better players imo. Just as much chance of being injured at Hartlepool as there was last night so what's the point. However getting through would have enhanced confidence and may have brought us a money spinning tie in the next round. As it is negativity has returned, at least from those there to witness such a abject display.
Abject performance from start to finish. McCleod and Gray both guilty of glaring misses. But..... decent performance by Stavrinou who played the full 120 minutes.
I reckon Parkinson should stay in Hereford and sign their players Ryan Green and Marc Pugh, both very good on the night.
Finally, well done to me and the other 322 Charlton fans for sitting through the whole pitiful spectacle.
I stood and although we have a romantic notion of wanting standing to return I really don't believe it's all it's cracked up to be. I'd much rather have sat.
Sorry mate coulldn't resist!
I'm sure we were both well placed to see the foul on Gray that was missed by the ref leading to the attack that led to the goal.
I appreciate the "optimist" group have to put a silver lining on things, but I like to imagine that Hereford would certainly have "taken" a draw; which means we should really be hoping for better. There's an outside chance that one day Parky will "succeed". By then though I suspect a few on here will have reduced expectations still further.
"A five one home defeat to Bury would be a decent result. They have a tight defence and our reserve left back is injured".
We made 8 changes from saturday and players were playing out of their position and making their debuts. Maybe your expectations are too high if you think that every member of our team and squad should be competing with beating everyone who is put in front of them. They are simply not good enough IMO.
If you want to look at things that way then fair enough. But if you are doing that then you would undoubtedly agree then that the league win against Wycombe on Saturday was Parky's responsibility. End Of. ?
Now we know that that wasn't the case, and nor was last night.
If we are going to instantly analyse every single result this season to the nth degree then it is going to be a very long season. Hands were tied last night meaning a weakened side. Whether he should have played those other first teamers who were available, and whether they would have faired any better, is mere hindsight, and can only really be judged later on, in how we perform in the upcoming league games, and in the tail end of the season if certain players are still fresh. JonJo for an example, if fit and in form will play as a 17yr old between 40-50 games this season. As will Racon, who has never yet played a full season due to injuries.
Every case needs to be looked at individually, and in the main, i stand by the decision to put that team out last night. If we are running with a squad, we need to know what everyone in that squad is capable of.
And as others have pointed out, if Andy Gray (our highest earner at the club) had scored his penalty, we would have won 1-0, and everyone would have been getting excited on what a great start to the season we have had. The margins are so small. Had we been dicked 3-0 last night, then the complaints would have been justified IMO.
I think that's an important point. If we had conceded against Wycombe again and drew 3-3 there would be a lot of talk about how Parkinson has proved in just 2 games that he's not up to the job. And like you said, a 1-0 win last night and we'd be saying it's a solid start to the season, and how the back up/young players/players out of position did quite well.
agree totally.
;o)
Three weeks time we'll have a much better idea of how we are likely to do.
Yes, and I have said so repeatedly, I am judging Philip Parkinson on his results, I was not convinced by the team on Saturday, but we got three juicy points, we need to follow that with a draw at Hartlepool and a draw at Orient minimum, anything more is a cushion against anything going wrong anything less means that Philip Parkinson will have to do a lot to convince me it's not the same old same old...in fact despite having tickets for Orient two 0-0 draws will be OK for me and will mean we must then win at home to Walsall.
We're out of the cup, lost the chance of any money spinning tie next round, and I think Philip Parkinson has to accept responsibility for that...he made a poor call regarding the team, and those that did play by all accounts weren't set up well enough to compete convincingly....his responsibility end of.
Seth, this is just my opinion and i apologise if it comes across as patronising because that isn't the intention.....
but take a step back man ! 'cushions in the first three games' 'must-win 4th game', there's too much intensity to it. We as a club are in limbo at the moment, and i don't think we will be able to properly analyse our squad, and with that results and performances until mid-september at the earliest. Straight away you're putting too much pressure on perfect scenarios.
Only 5 or 6 teams have what you would class as brilliant seasons. Given where we are and what we have just been through, the chances of one of them being us this season are pretty slim.
You gonna have to find yourself some enjoyment out of the whole thing, because if you're going to base the whole thing solely on results then the liklihood is your going to be very disappointed.
It's not patronising....but you well know my attitude. We are a club who's management on and off the pitch I am unimpressed with, but for me it has not always been like this, the last 2-3 seasons has eroded my love and enthusiasm to the point where I feel alienated from my club. I don't blame either Parkinson or Waggott completely for the mess we're in, and I understand the fact that they are happy to stick around and take the wages partly paid for by me...but my personal level of tolerance is at an end, even if you see it as putting pressure on. I expect Parkinson to get the players to win every home game and draw every away game as near as dammit, and I expect Steve Waggott to stop contributing utter crap in a public forum like the programme (on Saturday there was a refreshing absence of his usual b*llocks in the programme, but if you want an object lesson in patronising may I refer the right honourable gentleman to Waggotts programme notes of last season).
Having the last three years of bitter bitter disappointment, watching my fine club being run into the ground, I just don't want to take it lying down, which is why I will post here, e-mail Waggott, and try to encourage the Supporters Trust by offering money and shares despite the initial meeting being called by somebody at the other end of the supporting spectrum to me, and whose views I usually disagree with.
As a point of interest, if supporters like me don't start judging on results, that is even more reason for the current regime to think everything in the garden is fine, and the mug punters will tolerate any old rubbish providing the odd rare win in an 'indifferent' season is 'dedicated' to us.
No, i agree to judge on results. But the question is 'when', and when in my mind is not after one league game (a win) and one cup game featuring largely our reserves (a defeat), but when the transfer window has closed, and a settled team has played 12-15 games.
Like you said, the chance of a brilliant season is slim. Because we were safely in mid table in the Prem only a few years ago, we've still got the expectation that in League One we should be winning the league and not having a problem against a League Two side in the cup. From what I've seen of the likes of Wagstaff, Stavrinou, Spring, Youga and McLeod, I was never confident when I saw the lineup that we would beat Hereford.
While Bailey, Racon, Shelvey etc are Championship players, many of the youngsters are League Two or Conference standard at best with few exceptions, possibly Solly. And then there's players like McLeod, Spring and Youga who have never stood out for us and aren't going to dominate against a team in a league below us. Sounds bad but Spring just never dominates a game, we all know what Youga is like and McLeod probably doesn't have much confidence.
We don't have a big squad, we don't have much quality cover, the result last night just wasn't a surprise. We are no longer that good as a squad that we can play only 3 players from our first choice eleven and win comfortably against a team in a league below us.