Basey's lack of pace should be more of a concern to you than Jonjo being frustrated. He isn't able to overlap the winger like Youga
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Check out Wagstaff's goal against Brighton, Basey fed Semedo (?) carried on running, took the return pass, went past his marker in the process and centred for the goal. It isn't just about pace but accuracy, self-confidence and the ability to read the game.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Of course pace benefits any player and gives him that edge, but generally Basey is coping despite not being blessed with electric acceleration. At fullback he is naturally being compared with Youga, who does have the benefit of quick feet.
Basey does overlap and get forward into good positions - but he will intelligently pass his way rather than attempt to take on the defender. Which is just commonsense, as it means he's fully aware of his weaknesses and his strengths.
Different players have different attributes ..... it's the manager's job to find the most effective team blend.
I'm in no way saying he isn't doing a good job or could hold down a place in the team when Youga is unable to play. My point really was that the left midfield situation (which seems to be our worse position) would be greatly eased by constantly having a left back that can bomb past on the overlap. This enables the winger to either slip a ball through to the overlaping full back or cut inside to the space created by the fullback pulling their defender away. It doesn't always work but when done right it can be very effective but you do really need a pacey fullback to do it
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Basey's lack of pace should be more of a concern to you than Jonjo being frustrated. He isn't able to overlap the winger like Youga
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Check out Wagstaff's goal against Brighton, Basey fed Semedo (?) carried on running, took the return pass, went past his marker in the process and centred for the goal. It isn't just about pace but accuracy, self-confidence and the ability to read the game.
Thank you, BFR. That's more or less the point I was trying to suggest in my post above.
You've described an actual move, which sums up exactly what Basey is capable of going forward.
Not so long ago it was Youga. Now that Omozusi has turned out to be a OK player it seems that role is to be taken by Basey.
I'm sure some will see the irony of Basey been described as not good enough as he doesn't reach Youga's high standards but then again some won't.
Basey may or may not make it. Personally I've always felt that midfield will suit him better but let's not judge his whole career on one error on Saturday when he went to cut out the ball, realised he wasn't going to make it, was left in no mans land and got done by the winger. As has been said he did overlap very well for Wagstaff's goal at Brighton.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Of course pace benefits any player and gives him that edge, but generally Basey is coping despite not being blessed with electric acceleration. At fullback he is naturally being compared with Youga, who does have the benefit of quick feet.
Basey does overlap and get forward into good positions - but he will intelligently pass his way rather than attempt to take on the defender. Which is just commonsense, as it means he's fully aware of his weaknesses and his strengths.
Different players have different attributes ..... it's the manager's job to find the most effective team blend.
I'm in no way saying he isn't doing a good job or could hold down a place in the team when Youga is unable to play. My point really was that the left midfield situation (which seems to be our worse position) would be greatly eased by constantly having a left back that can bomb past on the overlap. This enables the winger to either slip a ball through to the overlaping full back or cut inside to the space created by the fullback pulling their defender away. It doesn't always work but when done right it can be very effective but you do really need a pacey fullback to do it
Sure, Uncle ....... the Youga/Bailey combination earlier in the season proved that it could work very well.
But horses for courses and all that, Basey/Waggy for example at Brighton proved that there are alternatives - which for different reasons can be just as effective though.
Hunger and desire, cetainly. But frustration - of course. Any player out of the side should be frustrated by his exclusion, whether it's due to injury, suspension, loss of form or a manager who doesn't see his worth.
Dickson was frustrated at not getting in the team. Someone (Nadou, I think) said above that Basey had endured a frustrating time when he was out of the side but had borne it with great dignity and loyalty to the club. Richardson must be frustrated that he keeps getting injured. Randolph must have been frustrated that a loanee was given the gloves over him. Etc etc. I'd be worried if these players weren't frustrated at their circumstances as it's an indication of a professional desire and hunger to play, rather than to sit back and take the shilling.
Think of Christiansen. We offered him a deal to terminate his contract and he refused it. Sadly he wasn't frustrated enough - he apparently put the money we were paying him above his desire and hunger to play football.
So yes, I hope every single player on the Charlton pay roll feels frustrated every time they are unable to play - for whatever reason...
I think Uncle knows more about how Jon Jo is feeling regarding the situation that you or I Nigel and he made the distinction very clear.
You linked his imagined frustration to "getting disaffected".
Pleasingly Uncle has made it clear that that is not the case and that he is learning while enjoying being around the first team. Long may that continue. Jon Jo's time will come soon enough so no need for him, or us, to panic
Basey slipped just before trying to close the Southend player. He's not as slow as people ar making out (recovered well to block out a through ball at Southampton in JPT, did same in recent home game v Rovers, got forward really well at Yeovil and Brighton) The lad's covering for a good player (Youga) and making an excellent job of it. I agree with some other posters who have suggested that on Youga's return, Basey should be given a go at left-midfield. He COULD provide the balance we've been looking for.
PS: Example of Charlton full-back without too much speed....Mark Bowen. He relied on positional sense and used the ball as well as any Charlton full-back I've seen.
Yes, an excellent post from Uncle, as I said last night.
Not sure what the argument is. ''He made the distinction very clear''?
No, the distinction is not clear. Unfulfilled desire and hunger = frustration. According to the OED even ''hope disappointed'' = frustration.
Any Charlton player shold hope to play and when he doesn't should therefore feel frustration. Hunger and desire disappointed = even greater frustration, surely?
Think you're boxing at shadows here over a totally non-contentious word.
I don't think Richardson has that much pace and against speedy wingers this season he's been done a couple of times, yet no one is highlighting those errors and the perception is that he's having a very good season.
Think you're boxing at shadows here over a totally non-contentious word.
And I think you are making huge and unfounded assumptions by claiming falsely that not playing every game = "Frustration" and "frustration" = "getting disaffected".
don't think Basey is doing too badly, ok he lacks pace but he's been pretty solid. I'm surprised we are not discussing how crap Racon was again. Wrong choice by Parky, Spring was the better bet, as Racon is so far off it at the moment it's unreal.
Think you're boxing at shadows here over a totally non-contentious word.
And I think you are making huge and unfounded assumptions by claiming falsely that not playing every game = "Frustration" and "frustration" = "getting disaffected".
And i think you are stirring for the sake of stirring purely because the post was from Nigel.......
As for Basey, don't see it as a whipping boy thread, but one discussing strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure he would be the first to tell you that his lack of pace is the only major downfall to his game, but i'm sure it is something him and the club work on the most and i expect it to improve over time. Personally i think as he develops and gets more know how through his career he will make a decent calming centre half. Don't see the comparisons with Mark Reid etc to be honest, because you are comparing to a time ni the game when pace and power wsn't such a key attribute in playing as it is today.
As for the Jonjo / fustration / learning angle, i hope him and every other player not in the side is frustrated because i want them all when they get their chance to give it everything you've got. Of course players can learn out of the side, its why most are taken out in the first place. How they react is the most important aspect.
Discussing strengths and weaknesses are fine but what I feel is unjustified is then making the leap from one poor performance or mistake to "never going to be good enough" etc or in Nigel's case reading Jon Jo's mind and sticking to his pre-conception that he is "frustrated" and "getting disaffected" despite Uncle refuting that.
A few have short memories. Youga was pilloried early on, Omo got it and now it is Basey. Next week it will be Racon and the week or month after that someone else.
As I read it we are complimenting Basey by recognising that he has an excellent game bar one important ingredient, pace which is increasingly important in the modern game the higher up the ladder you go.
I can remember the late great Bobby Robson once saying when he was manager at Ipswich that whenever a youngster was recommended he would ask what thhe youngster was like as an athlete to see if he was quick enough to play as a pro. That was 25-30 years ago! Pace is far more important now.
For that reason I and others are speculating on where the undoubted strengths of Grant Basey could be used if, as we all hope, we return to the Championship or, letus dream, better.
Regarding Jonjo I think Nigel raised a valid question which uncle answered. It is a shame that it couldn't be left there and I hope Nigel reconsiders his withdrawal from the forums and returns as I for one find his views interesting and insightful even if I disagree with him.
Sam was the week before that, although he had to share his week with Parky, their weeks of being pilloried were overshadowed by the slagging off of McLoed.
Perhaps we could have a rota and clearly name a player per week who's turn it is to get slagged off so we all know where we stand.
Henry i agree with you. Sadly Nigel finds the need to bring Jonjo into every thread. This is actually post match views a match he didn't play in yet here we are once again discussing how nigel thinks jonjo is feeling. I know for certain if i had said jonjo was frustrated nigel would have said does he think he's got the right to be in the team then and claim he is arrogant to think so. If i say he isn't frustrated then clearly jonjo dont care about playing football just about taking the money. Well let me tell you nigel,you dont know him so please dont assume you do,stop trying to guess how he's feeling,i'm not sure what your problem is but maybe you are the one that is frustrated. Jonjo is happy at Charlton and will continue to worked hard to get back in the 1st team,until that time he will support his fellow player and be very glad of their winning ways. If you want someone that hopes the team loses so they might get back in the team then i'm sorry you've got the wrong lad. A while ago i jokingly said to him i've backed you to score the first goal so bloody make sure you do. He then reminded me that he plays for a team and there is no "i" in team. Thats what sort of lad he is,so you can analyze him all you want but please dont use terms such as disaffected.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]don't think Basey is doing too badly, ok he lacks pace but he's been pretty solid. I'm surprised we are not discussing how crap Racon was again. Wrong choice by Parky, Spring was the better bet, as Racon is so far off it at the moment it's unreal.
Agree, much as I like Racon he's not a holding CM and was nothing like the player he has been, even earlier this season, on the ball.
Discussing strengths and weaknesses are fine but what I feel is unjustified is then making the leap from one poor performance or mistake to "never going to be good enough" etc or in Nigel's case reading Jon Jo's mind and sticking to his pre-conception that he is "frustrated" and "getting disaffected" despite Uncle refuting that.
A few have short memories. Youga was pilloried early on, Omo got it and now it is Basey. Next week it will be Racon and the week or month after that someone else.
I think that thinking players are good enough or never going to be good enough for a particular level is a process that happens all the time in supporters and coaching staffs minds all the time. What on earth is wrong with that thought process particularly when my idea of a players ability is worthless apart from discussion on forums like this one. I remember thinking Chris Waddle was useless but he seemed to go on and do ok. I think Basey has done very well but I also think he has limitations that will limit his progress. Not based on one performance but on my general feeling for the player. Just a supporters opinion thats all.
[cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]Dazzler lacks pace but we dont all slag him off (oh yes we do) sorry mate ;-)
Just spat my coffee out laughing ........haha poor old Dazzler!
Just couldn't discus pace and not mention Charlton Lifes answer to Usain Bolt ;-)
oi! that to be fair is the only fault to my game... I can cross, shoot and pass but run you sir are having a laugh basey really is pacey in comparison to me! Lol
SHG, no problems with people saying what their general feeling is for a player .
Just seems to me that we are sometimes very quick to make a final judgement rather than seeing it as a work in progress which could go either way or take into considerations that some players have ups and downs or still have a lot of developing to do.
For me the difference is saying "Racon was Poor on Saturday" and "Racon showed on Saturday he is a poor player"
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]SHG, no problems with people saying what their general feeling is for a player .
Just seems to me that we are sometimes very quick to make a final judgement rather than seeing it as a work in progress which could go either way or take into considerations that some players have ups and downs or still have a lot of developing to do.
For me the difference is saying "Racon was Poor on Saturday" and "Racon showed on Saturday he is a poor player"
I agree with that Henry although just like size I think pace is something that no amount of work can address.
Comments
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Check out Wagstaff's goal against Brighton, Basey fed Semedo (?) carried on running, took the return pass, went past his marker in the process and centred for the goal. It isn't just about pace but accuracy, self-confidence and the ability to read the game.
I'm in no way saying he isn't doing a good job or could hold down a place in the team when Youga is unable to play. My point really was that the left midfield situation (which seems to be our worse position) would be greatly eased by constantly having a left back that can bomb past on the overlap. This enables the winger to either slip a ball through to the overlaping full back or cut inside to the space created by the fullback pulling their defender away. It doesn't always work but when done right it can be very effective but you do really need a pacey fullback to do it
Thank you, BFR. That's more or less the point I was trying to suggest in my post above.
You've described an actual move, which sums up exactly what Basey is capable of going forward.
We do love a whipping boy don't we.
Not so long ago it was Youga. Now that Omozusi has turned out to be a OK player it seems that role is to be taken by Basey.
I'm sure some will see the irony of Basey been described as not good enough as he doesn't reach Youga's high standards but then again some won't.
Basey may or may not make it. Personally I've always felt that midfield will suit him better but let's not judge his whole career on one error on Saturday when he went to cut out the ball, realised he wasn't going to make it, was left in no mans land and got done by the winger. As has been said he did overlap very well for Wagstaff's goal at Brighton.
Sure, Uncle ....... the Youga/Bailey combination earlier in the season proved that it could work very well.
But horses for courses and all that, Basey/Waggy for example at Brighton proved that there are alternatives - which for different reasons can be just as effective though.
Dickson was frustrated at not getting in the team. Someone (Nadou, I think) said above that Basey had endured a frustrating time when he was out of the side but had borne it with great dignity and loyalty to the club. Richardson must be frustrated that he keeps getting injured. Randolph must have been frustrated that a loanee was given the gloves over him. Etc etc. I'd be worried if these players weren't frustrated at their circumstances as it's an indication of a professional desire and hunger to play, rather than to sit back and take the shilling.
Think of Christiansen. We offered him a deal to terminate his contract and he refused it. Sadly he wasn't frustrated enough - he apparently put the money we were paying him above his desire and hunger to play football.
So yes, I hope every single player on the Charlton pay roll feels frustrated every time they are unable to play - for whatever reason...
You linked his imagined frustration to "getting disaffected".
Pleasingly Uncle has made it clear that that is not the case and that he is learning while enjoying being around the first team. Long may that continue. Jon Jo's time will come soon enough so no need for him, or us, to panic
PS: Example of Charlton full-back without too much speed....Mark Bowen. He relied on positional sense and used the ball as well as any Charlton full-back I've seen.
Not sure what the argument is. ''He made the distinction very clear''?
No, the distinction is not clear. Unfulfilled desire and hunger = frustration. According to the OED even ''hope disappointed'' = frustration.
Any Charlton player shold hope to play and when he doesn't should therefore feel frustration. Hunger and desire disappointed = even greater frustration, surely?
Think you're boxing at shadows here over a totally non-contentious word.
And I think you are making huge and unfounded assumptions by claiming falsely that not playing every game = "Frustration" and "frustration" = "getting disaffected".
This is so frustrating I'm out of here. No point in trying to reason with someone who choses to deny the dictionary!
Come on Nigel/Henry - we get it, you don't like each other but there is no need for the sniping or the one-upmanship.
Back to the post-match views...
And i think you are stirring for the sake of stirring purely because the post was from Nigel.......
As for Basey, don't see it as a whipping boy thread, but one discussing strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure he would be the first to tell you that his lack of pace is the only major downfall to his game, but i'm sure it is something him and the club work on the most and i expect it to improve over time. Personally i think as he develops and gets more know how through his career he will make a decent calming centre half. Don't see the comparisons with Mark Reid etc to be honest, because you are comparing to a time ni the game when pace and power wsn't such a key attribute in playing as it is today.
As for the Jonjo / fustration / learning angle, i hope him and every other player not in the side is frustrated because i want them all when they get their chance to give it everything you've got. Of course players can learn out of the side, its why most are taken out in the first place. How they react is the most important aspect.
Discussing strengths and weaknesses are fine but what I feel is unjustified is then making the leap from one poor performance or mistake to "never going to be good enough" etc or in Nigel's case reading Jon Jo's mind and sticking to his pre-conception that he is "frustrated" and "getting disaffected" despite Uncle refuting that.
A few have short memories. Youga was pilloried early on, Omo got it and now it is Basey. Next week it will be Racon and the week or month after that someone else.
I can remember the late great Bobby Robson once saying when he was manager at Ipswich that whenever a youngster was recommended he would ask what thhe youngster was like as an athlete to see if he was quick enough to play as a pro. That was 25-30 years ago! Pace is far more important now.
For that reason I and others are speculating on where the undoubted strengths of Grant Basey could be used if, as we all hope, we return to the Championship or, letus dream, better.
Regarding Jonjo I think Nigel raised a valid question which uncle answered. It is a shame that it couldn't be left there and I hope Nigel reconsiders his withdrawal from the forums and returns as I for one find his views interesting and insightful even if I disagree with him.
It is what healthy debate is all about.
Sam was the week before that, although he had to share his week with Parky, their weeks of being pilloried were overshadowed by the slagging off of McLoed.
Perhaps we could have a rota and clearly name a player per week who's turn it is to get slagged off so we all know where we stand.
Just spat my coffee out laughing ........haha poor old Dazzler!
Just couldn't discus pace and not mention Charlton Lifes answer to Usain Bolt ;-)
Agree, much as I like Racon he's not a holding CM and was nothing like the player he has been, even earlier this season, on the ball.
Thankfully Semedo is back next week
I think that thinking players are good enough or never going to be good enough for a particular level is a process that happens all the time in supporters and coaching staffs minds all the time. What on earth is wrong with that thought process particularly when my idea of a players ability is worthless apart from discussion on forums like this one. I remember thinking Chris Waddle was useless but he seemed to go on and do ok. I think Basey has done very well but I also think he has limitations that will limit his progress. Not based on one performance but on my general feeling for the player. Just a supporters opinion thats all.
Just seems to me that we are sometimes very quick to make a final judgement rather than seeing it as a work in progress which could go either way or take into considerations that some players have ups and downs or still have a lot of developing to do.
For me the difference is saying "Racon was Poor on Saturday" and "Racon showed on Saturday he is a poor player"
I agree with that Henry although just like size I think pace is something that no amount of work can address.